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Theme Changer

 Topic: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....

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  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #30 - December 24, 2009, 12:52 AM
    That's interesting blackdog, I was thinking of moving to a Muslim paradise a few years back too. Funny how things change. The Gulf was on my list but my sister moved there and the stories she came back with!
    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #31 - December 24, 2009, 12:52 AM
    But don't you think the idealization of Arab countries was part of a larger pseudo-religious political indoctrination?
    One life is all we have and we live it as we believe in living it. But to sacrifice what you are and to live without belief, that is a fate more terrible than dying. (Joan of Arc)
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #32 - December 24, 2009, 12:54 AM
    It is a central part of Islam itself. Islam is arab-centric in nature to the point of promoting arab supremacism.
    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #33 - December 24, 2009, 12:56 AM
    Quote from: Joan of Arc on December 24, 2009, 12:33 AM
    I think if he lived here he would have.

    Honestly, one is much freer to try to understand Islam and implement it in their lives in the way that works for them far outside of the so-called Muslim world.


    Pardon me but a rather devout Muslim I used to work with often told me that one does not implement Islamic rules in such a way so as to accommodate oneself but the opposite must be done, as those are divine rules..  From what I have seen many Muslims share that view
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #34 - December 24, 2009, 12:58 AM
    Quote from: Joan of Arc on December 24, 2009, 12:37 AM
    To give you an idea of how willing I am to consider controversial subjects I headed straight to the forum on Women in islam  grin12

    You should head for the hadith quotes in my sig at some point, they're as controversial as it gets Wink
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #35 - December 24, 2009, 12:59 AM
    Quote from: Joan of Arc on December 24, 2009, 12:44 AM
    One year is nothing. Try 11!  finmad

    But I would say that these so-called "religious Muslims" in the West are really "political Muslims" who are simply spewing the party line that promotes the inevitable clash of civilizations.


    Considering that many religious Muslims believe in the implementation of Sharia, that would also make them political in a way.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #36 - December 24, 2009, 01:01 AM
    Yes, I agree. But I think that is political in nature rather than truly spiritually motivated.
    One life is all we have and we live it as we believe in living it. But to sacrifice what you are and to live without belief, that is a fate more terrible than dying. (Joan of Arc)
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #37 - December 24, 2009, 01:02 AM
    Islam IS a political religion, that's why it's always in such a mess.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #38 - December 24, 2009, 01:03 AM
    yes Ras, I have heard the same thing many times. I don't subscribe to that.
    One life is all we have and we live it as we believe in living it. But to sacrifice what you are and to live without belief, that is a fate more terrible than dying. (Joan of Arc)
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #39 - December 24, 2009, 01:14 AM
    Quote from: Joan of Arc on December 24, 2009, 01:01 AM
    Yes, I agree. But I think that is political in nature rather than truly spiritually motivated.

    Were you a muslim or religious before ?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #40 - December 24, 2009, 01:23 AM
    Quote from: Joan of Arc on December 24, 2009, 01:01 AM
    Yes, I agree. But I think that is political in nature rather than truly spiritually motivated.


    It is spirtually motivated as well.  They believe that the rules of Sharia are divine rules.  How can you deny that they are spiritually motivated when there is this religious element involved?
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #41 - December 24, 2009, 01:25 AM
    Quote from: Joan of Arc on December 24, 2009, 01:03 AM
    yes Ras, I have heard the same thing many times. I don't subscribe to that.


    This continues to prove Hassan's argument that there is no real Islam or true Muslim if we were to take it one step further.   
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #42 - December 24, 2009, 01:26 AM
    Welcome Joan of Arc  Smiley
    I hope you enjoy the discussions here.

    I find it absurd that anyone can actually believe that any religion is not a political movement in itself. Every religion comprises two cardinal components: belief in a superdaddy up in the skies and adopting a way of life that's modeled in accordance with the teachings of that religion.
    If you're religious you don't have to be "politically active" to be political and I'll tell you what I mean. For instance, you can't be a true Christian without opposing abortion. You also can't be a Muslim without opposing anybody who criticizes Mohammed. In both case you are therefore infringing on others' right to privacy (1st example) and to freedom of speech (2nd example). Thus you have become political. Let alone those who are actually "politically active".

    I am not saying there are no "moderate" Muslims or Christians. My point is (it's actually Sam Harris' point), they are not actually moderates; it's a misnomer. They are either atheists or agnostics who are too lazy or busy with life to think; or they simply don't subscribe to some teachings of their religion and are consequently apostates.

    As for "spirituality", I have absolutely no idea what somebody means by labeling themselves "spiritual". What the fuck does that mean? That they do yoga and burn incense?

    Please ladies and gentlemen care to enlighten me?
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #43 - December 24, 2009, 01:26 AM
    I grew up as a Christian but converted to Islam in 2000. I am spiritual and have always been. I have had takfir pronounced on me on a daily basis because of my liberal views and interpretation of my faith.

    I'm not sure if I am making this clear, but I became a Muslim because at it's core it gelled with where I was at spiritually. I never signed up for the politicized dog and pony show, and I never will. In many ways it might be easier to understand me if you drop the Muslim label  (even though I still use it to indicate my core beliefs).  
    One life is all we have and we live it as we believe in living it. But to sacrifice what you are and to live without belief, that is a fate more terrible than dying. (Joan of Arc)
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #44 - December 24, 2009, 01:28 AM
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us Joan. I'm curious as to what you personally think/believe specifically about Mohammed.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #45 - December 24, 2009, 01:30 AM
    Considering that Shariah is extrapolated from the Quran and Hadith (which are extremely problematic), I don't consider it divine law.

    And I would agree that it could be said there are no true Muslims. I strive to be the best person I can be and feel that is in step with being what I think a good Muslim is.
    One life is all we have and we live it as we believe in living it. But to sacrifice what you are and to live without belief, that is a fate more terrible than dying. (Joan of Arc)
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #46 - December 24, 2009, 01:33 AM
    When I say spiritual I mean believing in the existence of one supreme being and accountability for how we conduct our lives.

    I don't like yoga, but I do burn incense  Tongue

    Hope it's clearer now.
    One life is all we have and we live it as we believe in living it. But to sacrifice what you are and to live without belief, that is a fate more terrible than dying. (Joan of Arc)
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #47 - December 24, 2009, 01:38 AM
    Allat,

    I believe it is very hard to know a whole lot that is absolutely and factually accurate from someone who lived such a long time ago without a solid written record from the time. And even when we do have written record, we still can't capture all the nuances of context. The fact that Prophet Mohammed can be viewed in one manner as acting with great humanity and in the next of the complete opposite tells me that the religion should not revolve around the person (in this case Mohammed) but around God.


    One life is all we have and we live it as we believe in living it. But to sacrifice what you are and to live without belief, that is a fate more terrible than dying. (Joan of Arc)
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #48 - December 24, 2009, 01:44 AM
    Quote
    The fact that Prophet Mohammed can be viewed in one manner as acting with great humanity and in the next of the complete opposite tells me that the religion should not revolve around the person (in this case Mohammed) but around God.

    But the same applies to god, he can be viewed as all-loving by some and as a complete asshole by others.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #49 - December 24, 2009, 01:52 AM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on December 24, 2009, 01:44 AM
    But the same applies to god, he can be viewed as all-loving by some and as a complete asshole by others.

    Exactly
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #50 - December 24, 2009, 01:55 AM
    Or indifferent. There's that as well. Who said god, he or she or it, even cares?
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #51 - December 24, 2009, 05:48 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on December 24, 2009, 12:46 AM
    Nonono, he wrote about his experience in Saudi in one of his books. I think it was in "Losing my Religion".


    Can I just say I would probably be more surprised at this point if Lang & his family are still Muslim or practicing Islam than I would be to hear that they have left.  Same with Gary Miller, who they always trot out for dawahganda purposes -- or rather, they trot out a book of his from 20 yrs ago and some old videos of his, but hm... we don't hear from him  much do we?  A lot of people get burned out in dawahganda, and not everyone gets treated as nicely as his highness Hamza Yusuf.  I would say that of the approximately 10 people I know outside of the forums who quit Islam, not including myself, at least four were involved in dawah / Islamic education that sort of thing.  
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #52 - December 24, 2009, 05:51 AM
    Quote from: ras111 on December 24, 2009, 12:56 AM
    Pardon me but a rather devout Muslim I used to work with often told me that one does not implement Islamic rules in such a way so as to accommodate oneself but the opposite must be done, as those are divine rules..  From what I have seen many Muslims share that view


    Having been one of those people who would have said that, I'll just point out that that whole mentality is the product of an Islam that accommodates someone.  Maybe not the individual, but it does the created scholarly / clergical class (sometimes at the expense of the individual).  There's really not that much in the quran that requires people to follow that stuff, but even beyond that, the ulamaa have taken a lot of liberties beyond even the sunnah, the authenticity of which is quite questionable of course. 
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #53 - December 24, 2009, 07:58 AM
    @Manat

    It's like a mini Big Brother state.

    Has somebody done a psychological experiment on this? On this kind of *pointing fingers* mentality.

    Manat, he also spoke about his kids, the older had problems with faith, the youngest had problems with hell. Or maybe it was the same kid who had issues? In any case, the oldest just seemed to have accepted his answers over some of the issues, and he said she found Allah and resolved her faith. Or something like that. And the youngest, or middle-kid maybe it was? Had problems with hell, why do so many people go to hell? Or why is hell mentioned that often. And he told her that it's only for evil people. LOL that's the funny thing, hell is open to almost everybody. You don't go to hell because you are a murderer you go simply because you don't believe in Allah and his Messenger. You could be St. Augustine and you would still go to hell. Right? There is nothing that says people of the book go to heaven?
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #54 - December 24, 2009, 09:00 AM
    I've read all three of Lang's books and seen a couple of lectures that were done by the dawah company Meccacentric. Youtube at one time was littered with his video's and used to be titled "atheist embraces islam!". He was always fairly far from orthodoxy, but still, if it served a purpose for the muslims then it's all good.

    Even when I was muslim, I thought his conversion to Islam was rather feeble and full of emotion. I read those books circa 2002-2005 and was expecting some intellectual rigour. Indeed, I would be surprised if he was still muslim. I would have thought he's slipped away into obscurity somewhere as an atheist.
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #55 - December 24, 2009, 09:10 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on December 24, 2009, 07:58 AM
    Manat, he also spoke about his kids, the older had problems with faith


    I wouldn't want to get too into "Well, I heard," but what you are mentioning here and 'what I heard' is why I wouldn't be surprised if someone called me tomorrow and said they're not Muslim anymore or some of them aren't Muslim anymore.  I always had the impression from him, even way back when, that he had a very hard time spiritually and intellectually with Islam, and the problem is that you have to sort of dumb yourself down to accept the deen and follow it.  Some people can do that, and some people can't. 
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #56 - December 24, 2009, 09:20 AM
    The thing is, it's not the intellectuals, or the scholars or the apologists who are at fault here, Eastern or Western. It's the religion itself, it's pretty hard to argue for the scientific "miracles" in the Quran. When so many of them are simply just wrong. I would write if not all, but I'm still ignorant about embryology.
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #57 - December 24, 2009, 09:36 AM
    I have met a lot of Muslims recently who reject the harsher aspects of the faith but cling to the core. Hence they have their own unique definition of Islam tailored for their needs. That approach never appealed me. For me even if you reject some harsh hadith you can't reject the fundamental notion that the great merciful God intends to eternally torture most of humanity for no reason at all.
    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: I'm not an Ex-Muslim but some of my best friends are....
     Reply #58 - December 24, 2009, 10:27 AM
    It was fairly straightforward for me. Islam is and always will be a hollistic religion. It's not a sweet shop religion. You either take it as it is or leave it and move on.

    As far as dumbing down is concerned, that's just cognitive dissonance, pure and simple. There are many intelligent people who believe in God and their respective religions. I just think that some part of the brain is reserved and locked into this belief, whist in almost all other matters of reasoning they are perfectly fine. It's just their willingness to believe and make that leap of faith. I did the same thing. Simply wanting to believe even though the evidence said otherwise.
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