Men's right to abortions

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #300 - December 30, 2009, 09:02 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 08:45 PM
if she is allowed to kill it, so should I be.

THE FUCK?

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #301 - December 30, 2009, 09:03 PM

Quote from: King Tut on December 30, 2009, 09:01 PM
Abortion is sick, weather done by a man or a woman! I am anti-abortion no-one has the right to terminate a living entity, because they made a mistake, lets worry about the rights of the innocent entity!

I actually agree with you for the most part. But I think abortion is fine when it comes to something like rape. If a rape victim truly doesn't want the child, she shouldn't be forced to, nor encouraged to.

Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #302 - December 30, 2009, 09:03 PM

Jesus fucking christ. You just don't get it do you? You have no rights over someone elses body. Period. This really needs no more arguing beyond this.

Now if you want to argue for a new legal system that is based around a sort of patriarchy and misogyny the argue that. But in a liberal democracy, your argument makes zero sense. Your rights exist up to the point where you don't harm someone else. A woman's pregnancy does not harm you physically, and you are not forced to raise the child at all or even look at it.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #303 - December 30, 2009, 09:05 PM

Fetuses can't hold preferences. Hence they're not innocent babies, they're an unconscious entity like the millions of sperm found in every guy's semen. Anyway, this is a debate between pro-choice people, please make another thread to debate pro-life vs pro choice if you want to debate that.
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #304 - December 30, 2009, 09:05 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on December 30, 2009, 08:50 PM
Judging by his posts, I would say he's the aborted butt-baby of kope and Tut.

Shut up or I will get the Queen to invade Canada! You are Canadian right?

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #305 - December 30, 2009, 09:07 PM

Yes he is.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #306 - December 30, 2009, 09:07 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 30, 2009, 09:03 PM
Your rights exist up to the point where you don't harm someone else.

Exactly, and a woman's giving birth to a child will harm me because I will abandon the child, and it will cause me a lifetime of turmoil and stress. It will not be fair for the child to grow up without a father either. Therefore it would hurt the child too, not just the father. The simple fact remains that you should not force someone to become a father without his consent.
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #307 - December 30, 2009, 09:07 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 08:55 PM

Of course! Talking about men's rights is something so rarely done that its laughable! That says something!

THAT'S NOT THE POINT!!!

I said and others said 1000 times MEN HAVE MANY RIGHTS AND SHOULD HAVE. But that's not the point here and I'm amazed you can't see that.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #308 - December 30, 2009, 09:08 PM

Who are kope and tut?

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #309 - December 30, 2009, 09:10 PM

Quote from: trumora on December 30, 2009, 09:07 PM
THAT'S NOT THE POINT!!!

I said and others said 1000 times MEN HAVE MANY RIGHTS AND SHOULD HAVE. But that's not the point here and I'm amazed you can't see that.

What rights exactly do men have when it comes to an unwanted pregnancy resulting in parenthood for both the man and the woman? Please explain
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #310 - December 30, 2009, 09:10 PM

Quote from: trumora on December 30, 2009, 09:08 PM
Who are kope and tut?

Apparently my gay parents
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #311 - December 30, 2009, 09:10 PM

Quote from: Tommy on December 30, 2009, 09:03 PM
I actually agree with you for the most part. But I think abortion is fine when it comes to something like rape. If a rape victim truly doesn't want the child, she shouldn't be forced to, nor encouraged to.

You can always give it up for adoption, on 3 occasions I would agree with abortion, 1) if the foetus will be disabled, or 2) the mothers life is under risky if she gives birth, 3) abortion within the first 14 weeks

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #312 - December 30, 2009, 09:11 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 09:07 PM
Exactly, and a woman's giving birth to a child will harm me because I will abandon the child, and it will cause me a lifetime of turmoil and stress. It will not be fair for the child to grow up without a father either. Therefore it would hurt the child too, not just the father. The simple fact remains that you should not force someone to become a father without his consent.

You sound like friggin Muslim. Hurting your feelings is not a violation of your rights. Emotional trauma is not a violation of your rights. Her having a baby does not violate your rights, if you don't want to deal with child support payments then don't put yourself in that position.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #313 - December 30, 2009, 09:14 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 08:54 PM
Abortion is less risky and less painful than a pregnancy and childbirth, any kid knows that. I saw my friend had an abortion once, she was in the clinic about 30-40 mins and she came out and walked to the car and drove home with me and she was physically fine afterwards. To say that physically abortion even comes close to the discomfort or risks of pregnancy and childbirth is laughable.

I gave you 2 solid grounds on which women would object to an abortion:

1) Physical discomfort/medical risks
2) Psychological attachment to the child

Physical discomfort & medical risks of abortion are much less than a pregnancy and childbirth.
And a woman's psychological attachment to the child is not more valuable than a man's attachment to his child during a pro-life man vs pro-abortion woman case. Simply owning her body does not give the woman to justify her psychological attachment to the child under the cloak of physical objection to abortion. If the men's feelings aren't counted when a child is aborted, the same right should be given to men as well.

Until you refute that point you have no argument.

OMI Jesus christ allmighty in heaven. It does not matter which causes more pain an discomfort. the rightness or wrongness of each exist INDEPENDENTLY of such things. Do you know what an appeal to consequences is? Wait, where have I heard that before?? *Racks brains*

A woman can object to an abortion for any reason she wants because....its her goddang body. The body is a precious possession. Much too precious to hand it over to someone else. Why do you assume that a mans feelings arw never counted. Do ALL abortions go like this? If this is the majority, prove it. If not, then stop saying it. You speak like men come out the worse for wear thru this. Is this true for most cases? Then prove it. If you cant you got no argument. Im not even talking about emotional/psych attachment to a child. You have no right to make a woman go thru a pregnancy or abortion period. If youre so damn peeved that a man might lose his kid to an abortion then you'r giving him the right to a child. That means all those risks you talked about related to pregnancy and birth, totally fine in that case, but again appeal to consequences.

OWNING BODY =/= PSYCHOLOGICAL ATTACHMENT- this is not even the main argument here.

Thats not my argument. There is inherent worth in owning one's own body. Cannot be usurped, negated, transferred, circumvented. Ever. This is the main argument. You're providing your own argument for why a woman could argue against an abortion and then, what? Passing them off as mine? No, those are your reasons.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #314 - December 30, 2009, 09:15 PM

Liberated, you have no way of establishing what you are calling a "right" as either a natural or legal right. You do not have a natural or legal right to control the course of a pregnancy unless you are pregnant. Nor do you have a natural or legal right to be spared psychological suffering over issues beyond your control, unless that suffering is the result of someone directly, intentionally and immediately violating a bonafide right (e.g. rape and the psychological trauma that comes with it, but rape is not a violation of someone's rights on the basis of psychological trauma alone, psychological trauma is secondary to violating the right of someone to control their own body). People find many things psychologically burdening or distressful, but that does not mean they have a right to have control over everything that effects them emotionally/psychologically.

Quote from: Kafirist on December 30, 2009, 08:51 PM
Kope was fucking awesome, don't your dare talk bad about him!

Whaddya mean? I'm loving these posts by liberated.

Quote from: King Tut on December 30, 2009, 09:05 PM
You are Canadian right?

Low blow, Tut.

fuck you
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #315 - December 30, 2009, 09:20 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 30, 2009, 09:11 PM
You sound like friggin Muslim. Hurting your feelings is not a violation of your rights. Emotional trauma is not a violation of your rights. Her having a baby does not violate your rights, if you don't want to deal with child support payments then don't put yourself in that position.

Of course causing me emotional distress is trampling on my rights. And the simple fact of forcing fatherhood on me without my consent is trampling on my rights. If I took a large stone and threw it at my gate at 12 am at night so it woke up my neighbors, I will be trampling on their rights to have quiet and peace and causing them emotional distress, and the police will come and arrest me.

And trust me, if I was a muslim I would not be arguing for abortion or be pro-choice for women otherwise.
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #316 - December 30, 2009, 09:21 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 09:10 PM
What rights exactly do men have when it comes to an unwanted pregnancy resulting in parenthood for both the man and the woman? Please explain

So yeah...some one said the man has the right to give up parenthood, so no child support. How hard you're hit emotionally does not equal rights. Kaffy just said that. Thats like saying your parents have no right to die becasue it hurts you too much. Youre giving emotional reasons for this shit. La la, appeal to conseqeuences which is an appeal to emotion. La la, lets see if you mention it this time .

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #317 - December 30, 2009, 09:23 PM

Broken record...

All your issues have solutions that don't involve forcing an unethical procedure onto a woman. They've been given to you. It just sounds like you just have a sick desire to force an abortion on to a woman.

~My story~
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #318 - December 30, 2009, 09:23 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on December 30, 2009, 09:15 PM
Low blow, Tut.

Fuck you

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #319 - December 30, 2009, 09:23 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 09:20 PM
Of course causing me emotional distress is trampling on my rights. And the simple fact of forcing fatherhood on me without my consent is trampling on my rights. If I took a large stone and threw it at my gate at 12 am at night so it woke up my neighbors, I will be trampling on their rights to have quiet and peace and causing them emotional distress, and the police will come and arrest me.

And trust me, if I was a muslim I would not be arguing for abortion or be pro-choice for women otherwise.

Quote
Does the law protect me against noise?

In Canada and the United States there are no national, provincial, or state laws that give blanket protection against noise, though there are some specific regulations governing manufacturing standards, air traffic, vehicle mufflers, and so on. Criminal laws may also cover things like noisy parties.

Governments have traditionally viewed noise as a nuisance rather than an environmental problem. As a result, most regulation has been left up to municipal authorities.

http://www.quiet.org/faq.htm#law

You don't have the right to make noise. A woman has the right to her body as well as the baby that is half hers. You don't think its right for a man to be neglected if he wants his baby or doesn't, so fuck it, lets do this to women because thats right. Instead of finding a solution where things can at least be alleviated for all involved, like, I d'nno, they sit down and fuggin talk like grown ass adults, then making things unfair for all is not the fucking answer.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #320 - December 30, 2009, 09:29 PM

Liberated, is an idiot, and I said this, when he newly signed up - but no one paid attention to what I said

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #321 - December 30, 2009, 09:31 PM

Quote from: Angel54 on December 30, 2009, 09:14 PM
A woman can object to an abortion for any reason she wants because....its her goddang body.

Its the man's sperm who is growing in the woman's body. He will be expected to raise the child equally once it grows up. He is equally responsible for its welfare. Hence he should have an equal say in whether the child lives or not. Owning her body does not give her ownership over the fetus. And repeatedly claiming the physical argument is baseless because as I have said, abortion is much less risky and painful than a pregnancy and childbirth. Since a woman will have to go through one of these no matter what, it does not violate any of her rights to force the much less painful of the procedures on her for the sake of the man's equal right to abort the fetus.

You cannot completely ignore the man's ownership of the fetus so easily. The main reason why the woman makes the decision if a man is pro-life, is because of the significantly higher risks and dangers of a pregnancy than an abortion, hence she has all rights to abort the child and I support that. However in the case of a painless and physically easy procedure like abortion, both the man and the woman have equal rights over the fetus if the man wants it to be aborted.

Quote
You speak like men come out the worse for wear thru this. Is this true for most cases? Then prove it. If you cant you got no argument.Then prove it. If you cant you got no argument.

This is like saying, does genocide happen in most areas of the world? No? Then you have no argument and lets not have any laws against it. The fact that it happens at all is enough reason for a law to be established to protect the rights of the man.

Quote
If youre so damn peeved that a man might lose his kid to an abortion then you'r giving him the right to a child. That means all those risks you talked about related to pregnancy and birth, totally fine in that case, but again appeal to consequences.

I'm definitely not pro-life, but I'm advocating equal rights. The main thing is none of the parents being forced into parenthood. The man's feelings are ignored when he is pro-life and wife wants an abortion, same thing should happen if man wants an abortion and woman wants to keep it for EQUAL RIGHTS.
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #322 - December 30, 2009, 09:34 PM

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 09:10 PM
What rights exactly do men have when it comes to an unwanted pregnancy resulting in parenthood for both the man and the woman? Please explain

1. BOTH agreeing with an abortion.
if not
2. Legally giving up his parental rights. It is possible in many countries including here where I'm from which is NOT a "1st world country", whatever that actually is. I wasn't going to bring this up, but my biological father has no legal rights concerning me and I don't have any concerning him.
3. If he doesn't want to have any children ever than have a vasectomy.

I think that's a lot of options.

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #323 - December 30, 2009, 09:35 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on December 30, 2009, 09:15 PM
Liberated, you have no way of establishing what you are calling a "right" as either a natural or legal right. You do not have a natural or legal right to control the course of a pregnancy unless you are pregnant. Nor do you have a natural or legal right to be spared psychological suffering over issues beyond your control, unless that suffering is the result of someone directly, intentionally and immediately violating a bonafide right (e.g. rape and the psychological trauma that comes with it, but rape is not a violation of someone's rights on the basis of psychological trauma alone, psychological trauma is secondary to violating the right of someone to control their own body).

I do have a right over the fetus, it came from my sperm. I will be equally responsible for raising the child after its born as the mother would, if not more. Why should I have equal responsibilities as the woman and not have equal rights in aborting it if I don't want it? And the right of someone to control their body is not superior to my right to say no to fatherhood. Abortion is a fairly safe procedure in most cases, esp. in early stage which is what I'm talking about. The woman's life will not be put at any risk that she won't be subjected to during pregnancy and childbirth. Hence in this case a man's right to say no to becoming a father is superior to her right to controlling her body, esp. because the fetus in her came from the man.

If its not a right today it doesn't mean it won't become a right in the future.
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #324 - December 30, 2009, 09:37 PM

Quote from: King Tut on December 30, 2009, 09:29 PM
Liberated, is an idiot, and I said this, when he newly signed up - but no one paid attention to what I said

How could you tell?

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #325 - December 30, 2009, 09:39 PM

Quote from: trumora on December 30, 2009, 09:34 PM
1. BOTH agreeing with an abortion.
if not
2. Legally giving up his parental rights. It is possible in many countries including here where I'm from which is NOT a "1st world country", whatever that actually is. I wasn't going to bring this up, but my biological father has no legal rights concerning me and I don't have any concerning him.
3. If he doesn't want to have any children ever than have a vasectomy.

I think that's a lot of options.

If a man doesn't agree on abortion, the woman can still get an abortion hence his choice doesn't matter.
Giving up parental rights doesn't mean you are not a father. Fatherhood has still been forced on you without your consent.
What happens if i have a vasectomy and a pregnancy still occurs?
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #326 - December 30, 2009, 09:39 PM

Quote from: King Tut on December 30, 2009, 09:29 PM
Liberated, is an idiot, and I said this, when he newly signed up - but no one paid attention to what I said

lol, You don't fuck around, eh?

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #327 - December 30, 2009, 09:40 PM

Quote from: trumora on December 30, 2009, 09:37 PM
How could you tell?

Don't worry about him, more people here think he is an idiot than think I am.
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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #328 - December 30, 2009, 09:48 PM

His opinion should matter, so again, the trust thing comes into play here. Not the law. How does him getting a woman to get an abortion promote equality. All this would do is divide people. Its a difficult situation when a man and woman dont want a baby. Youre not advocating them talking it over. You're advocating him having more rights than her and aborting the baby.

can you envision a situation where a man goes "Honey, I know you dont want this baby, but thats too bad, I do, so were having it or "Honey, you can cry all you want to about aborting this baby, but it's my right to, so youre having an abortion tuts". NO fuckin man who loves his gf/ wife would say this to her face. You fuckin say a r-ship would be fine if the baby never came about in the first place and she wouldnt be a single mom? Typical. Blame the woman. dammit maybe youre right women today just have too maany rights. Lets take some basic ones away. A fucking Superior Court judge would look at you like you were a psychopath. If you wanna have equal rights in what happens to a fetus, GO hava fuckin test tube baby. end of story.

The genocide thing u brought up. its wring becasue you have no right to kill people. Its wrong cuz murder's wrong, not becaue killing on a mass scale is wrong. Being emotionally dsitraugt is not having ur rights violated.

AGAIN, if it aint true in MOST cases then you cannot make a general rule about them. YOU don't make a law to apply to all people based on how it would affect a minority.Never run for a political position. Seriously.

Whyd ont u understand that whether abortion is right or not has nothing to do with its consequences. its the act itself. Whether it's better or worse than birth is not about pain.

AND btw, birth isant always painfull. Ttheres these things calles epidurals. and birth can be as little as an hour. Abortion can make you infertile. is abortion more wrong in this case? can you make a general rule based on this?

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Re: Men's right to abortions
Reply #329 - December 30, 2009, 09:49 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 30, 2009, 09:23 PM
Fuck you

Hey, you guys are supposed to be polite and meek. Know your place, canuck.

Quote from: liberated on December 30, 2009, 09:40 PM
Don't worry about him, more people here think he is an idiot than think I am.

After this thread I wouldn't necessarily count on that.

fuck you
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