Stories of the Qur'an

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #60 - January 19, 2010, 12:11 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 18, 2010, 11:50 PM
Pray to the Creator God ALONE... if no scripture makes sense to you, pray to the creator God only... you don't have to use the Arabic name for Him.

Thanks for clarifying that. So what you mean is that it is not simply to about worhipping a single entity, but praying to your God. I got that now, thanks

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #61 - January 19, 2010, 02:13 AM

@ virtual

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well what should i do if i don't think their is a god that requires me to worship him or that is worthy of that if he requested such.

Are you saying if someone recognizes that they are one of God's creations, then they should not recognize their being His slave? yes?

@ BD

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Actually what about the argument I don't think it's right that a God makes me worship him. Or follow him. A bit like I wouldn't find it fair if I my parents forced me. Now I love them and respect them based on their actions, feelings, words and intentions. But being forced? Or having to think and lead yourself to love and follow? How is that free will? And getting punished for it? All of this seems odd.

If I believed an infinite God created me, then it automatically follows that I am His slave.

Free will is not the proper way to describe our *ability* to either believe or disbelieve. We weren't given free will, we were given the ability to obey or disobey..

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I only created jinn and man to worship Me. (Surat adh-Dhariyat, 56)

Yes, but many verses explain that God does NOT need anyone's worship so this simply means that it is our job to worship Him as we are His slaves since He created us, just like all His creations are His slaves (verse ?).

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I never asked to be born.

Neither did I.. but now that I'm alive, I'll fight for my life which is a clear indication that I do appreciate being created.

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And there is no clear, tangible proof.

No proof for the creator God you mean? Well, to me, the evidence is overwhelming and I can't understand why some people can't see it... When I once apostated, I became a DEIST believing 100% in the creator God.

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There is however faith, and believing simply out of that.

True, religion does take faith.

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But my problem is religion and proof outside religion. I stay agnostic. I can't believe to disbelieve either. So I remain unsure. But religion? The more I read with a clear mind the less convinced I am. And the more it pisses me off. There is so much hate and arrogance. I don't like that. I don't want to live like that either. I like being a good person, and I try my best to be loving and respectful. And I fail, a lot of times, but I will try till I die (I'd say Inshallah here but I rather say willfully). I believe in respecting people of all religions, genders, cultures, creeds and sexual orientations. And I will try to meet my own requirements. This is not for no God, or outward prize. I do this because I believe its a noble and human way of being. And I will fail, but I believe that its a worthy thing to strive towards.

You mean we have been instructed to hate nonbelievers? Do you want me to prove to you (using the Quran), that we are NOT to hate nonbelievers?

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I was like this as a muslim as well, but reading the Quran, kuffar this, kuffar that, jews this, Christians that, hypocrites this, and so on it just became too much. I don't want to defend this hateful and divisive ideology anymore.

See above.. I can prove, using the Quran that NONbelievers are not to be hated...

also, when God gave examples of disbelief and past sins of people, it was to teach us not to do the same mistakes. When God says He hates this and that, it means that we should avoid these things.. that's all.

Anyway, I am not here to preach as Iblis has implied... to be honest I posted my first post in response to Hassan's conversation with Yunus. and things got out of hand...

As I lingered longer, I finally understood that the message of this site is truly NOT against *Muslims* which is very appreciable. (unlike some other forum where the hidden message is Muslims shall apostate or theor lands conquered).

So, even if I'm going to stay here, I'd rather not discuss religion but I might comment on general issues.

regards.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #62 - January 19, 2010, 02:25 AM

I'm saying an able god don't need me...
a needy god is not able...
an unable entity is not god....

and your god don't exist
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #63 - January 19, 2010, 02:32 AM

@Debunker

I've looked over some of my posts to you and wish to apologize for being an ass to you and generally behaving rudely. While I am a bit of an internet troll, I am not naturally rude - especially when the said person is being polite. So while I do not at all see eye-to-eye with many of your religious views you are obviously a respectful and reasonable human being thus my negative tone was uncalled for. Hope you stick around and continue to contribute, we always needs different views even if we don't necessarily agree with them.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #64 - January 19, 2010, 02:35 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 19, 2010, 02:13 AM
See above.. I can prove, using the Quran that NONbelievers are not to be hated...

I thought that the quran stated that one was not to take Jews and Christians as friends and protectors either.

Quote from: debunker on January 19, 2010, 02:13 AM
also, when God gave examples of disbelief and past sins of people, it was to teach us not to do the same mistakes. When God says He hates this and that, it means that we should avoid these things.. that's all.

Why did he create them if he knew beforehand what they were going to do? What is the point of teaching us when we have no free will because he knows beforehand what we are going to do?

[/quote]

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #65 - January 19, 2010, 03:14 AM

@ ras

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I thought that the quran stated that one was not to take Jews and Christians as friends and protectors either.

Allow me to destroy this LIE spread by Salafi Muslims when they translate Wali as friend.

Friend = Sadeeq in Arabic.

Wali is someone you feel obliged to serve. There's a huge difference between Wali and Sadeeq.

You can be friends with Christians, Jews and ploytheists but you cannot feel obliged to serve them... you can serve them out of friendship but not out of obligation.

Being a Wali is a very special relation that should be kept among Muslims... Muslims should serve each other out of *religious* obligation....

I repeat: Wali does NOT mean friend unlike what those lying Salafi scholars claim... in fact, even according to Sunni Hadith, Wali does NOT mean friend, but it means someone you feel obliged to serve and be loyal to.

Proof from the Quran that you can befriend even polytheists:

60:1 clearly speaks of disbelievers who persecute Muslims. There's NO problem with befriending disbelievers who don't persecute us. Read ALL the verses from 1 to 9, (this Surah was revealed in Medina, by the way):

060.001
O you who believe! do not take My enemy and your enemy for ~~friends~~ Walis: would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the truth, driving out the Messenger and yourselves because you believe in God, your Lord? If you go forth struggling hard in My path and seeking My pleasure, would you manifest love to them? And I know what you conceal and what you manifest; and whoever of you does this, he indeed has gone astray from the straight path.

060.002
If they were to get the better of you, they would behave to you as enemies, and stretch forth their hands and their tongues against you for evil: and they desire that ye should reject the Truth.

060.003
Your ties of kindred and your children will avail you naught upon the Day of Resurrection. He will part you. God is Seer of what ye do.

[Comment: clearly the first 3 verses are talking about the Meccans who persecuted the Muslims, even though they are their relatives. So why should Muslims still love them after the great injustice befallen them? In fact, these verses encourage them to fight back despite the family ties.]

060.004
Indeed, there is for you a good example in Abraham and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you worship besides God; we declare ourselves to be clear of you, and enmity and hatred have appeared between us and you forever until you believe in God alone-- but not in what Abraham said to his father: I would certainly ask forgiveness for you, and I do not control for you aught from God-- Our Lord! on Thee do we rely, and to Thee do we turn, and to Thee is the eventual coming

060.005
Our Lord! do not make us a trial for those who disbelieve, and forgive us, our Lord! surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.

060.006
Certainly there is for you in them a good example, for him who fears God and the last day; and whoever turns back, then surely God is the Self-sufficient, the Praised.

[comment: now these 3 verses bring forth the example of Abraham, who hated the disbelief of his people and distanced himself from their faith and he prayed to God to not enable the disbelievers of persecuting them].

060.007
May God bring about friendship between you and those whom you hold to be your enemies among them (the Meccans); and God is Powerful; and God is Forgiving, Merciful.

[comment: This verse clearly states that friendship between Muslims and their enemies among Meccans is something for them to wish for, in fact see the next 2 verses].

060.008
God does NOT forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely God loves the doers of justice.

060.009
God only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that ~~you make friends with them~~ take them as Walis, ~~and whoever makes friends with them~~ takes them as Walis, these are the unjust.

PS. Wali can also mean: guardian but never friend.

I know you don't speak Arabic, and although these verses are strong evidence against Salafi claims, I hope Arabic speakers would take a look at this video. The salafi interviewer insists that we cannot be friends with non Muslims while the Sheikh insists that we can be friendly with them (well, I don't need the opinion of this Sheikh as the verses are clear on their own).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bBKRLyu_fc

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #66 - January 19, 2010, 03:17 AM

@ ras

Quote
Why did he create them if he knew beforehand what they were going to do? What is the point of teaching us when we have no free will because he knows beforehand what we are going to do?

You're mixing pre-knowledge with pre-destiny... some argue that pre-knowledge implies pre-destiny and I do not agree... anyway, I don't wish to discuss religion anymore.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #67 - January 19, 2010, 03:20 AM

Quote from: Iblis on January 19, 2010, 02:32 AM
@Debunker

I've looked over some of my posts to you and wish to apologize for being an ass to you and generally behaving rudely. While I am a bit of an internet troll, I am not naturally rude - especially when the said person is being polite. So while I do not at all see eye-to-eye with many of your religious views you are obviously a respectful and reasonable human being thus my negative tone was uncalled for. Hope you stick around and continue to contribute, we always needs different views even if we don't necessarily agree with them.

Well, some FFIers agree that I'm polite and some strongly disagree anyway, thank you Iblis.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #68 - January 19, 2010, 03:21 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 19, 2010, 03:17 AM
@ ras

You're mixing pre-knowledge with pre-destiny... some argue that pre-knowledge implies pre-destiny and I do not agree... anyway, I don't wish to discuss religion anymore.

Well what's the difference? They both imply lack of free will. If a god does not know what path his creation is going to take beforehand then he cannot be all knowing and therefore imperfect.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #69 - January 19, 2010, 03:22 AM

Quote from: Iblis on January 19, 2010, 02:32 AM
@Debunker

I've looked over some of my posts to you and wish to apologize for being an ass to you and generally behaving rudely. While I am a bit of an internet troll, I am not naturally rude - especially when the said person is being polite. So while I do not at all see eye-to-eye with many of your religious views you are obviously a respectful and reasonable human being thus my negative tone was uncalled for. Hope you stick around and continue to contribute, we always needs different views even if we don't necessarily agree with them.

Well, some FFIers agree that I'm polite and some strongly disagree anyway, thank you Iblis.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #70 - January 19, 2010, 03:28 AM

@ ras

Quote
Well what's the difference? They both imply lack of free will. If a god does not know what path his creation is going to take beforehand then he cannot be all knowing and therefore imperfect.

What do you mean what's the difference? If I know your future, it doesn't mean that I forced you to live your life the way you do.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #71 - January 19, 2010, 03:34 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 19, 2010, 03:28 AM
@ ras

What do you mean what's the difference? If I know your future, it doesn't mean that I forced you to live your life the way you do.

Well if you know my future down to every exact detail, then in reality I have no free will but I am merely someone following a script set out for me and it would be something beyond my control... Otherwise you wouldn't be able to know my future.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #72 - January 19, 2010, 03:39 AM

ok, I'm sure you heard this before, but pretend I took a trip to the future and watched a scence of your life, does my knowledge mean that I had any effect on that future scene?

Anyway, it comes down to this: God is in control of absolutely everything, but we do feel that we have a choice.. then we must act upon this ability to choose, whether we think it's "imaginary" or not.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #73 - January 19, 2010, 03:49 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 19, 2010, 03:39 AM
ok, I'm sure you heard this before, but pretend I took a trip to the future and watched a scence of your life, does my knowledge mean that I had any effect on that future scene?

No but it also means that in reality I am bound to act out that scene, whether I like it or not and therefore I have no real choice over my actions because I was destined to make them. Also being omnipotent and all-knowing presents a logical fallacy. If you are all-knowing you are simply a witness and therefore you have no power and control over them. Even if you intervene, you know that you are going to act that way before, so its not being all powerful.

If you are omnipotent then you can do want you like and you are not all knowing, because everything is subject to your actual choice. You can also change the future but then that does not make you a witness of the future anymore because you decide.

Quote from: debunker on January 19, 2010, 03:39 AM
Anyway, it comes down to this: God is in control of absolutely everything, but we do feel that we have a choice.. then we must act upon this ability to choose, whether we think it's "imaginary" or not.

We feel that we have a choice, but its not really a choice when it is already known before hand what your choice is going to be, is it? It is simply you unknowingly acting out the role that has been given to you before you were born.

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #74 - January 19, 2010, 04:00 AM

@ ras

I don't pretend that I understand or know everything but I repeat, the bottom line is:

God is in control of absolutely everything, but we do feel that we have a choice.. then we must act upon this ability to choose, whether we think it's "imaginary" or not.

Over and out.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #75 - January 19, 2010, 04:29 AM

Debunker always leaves the argument or tries to change the topic when he's about to lose.
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #76 - January 19, 2010, 05:05 AM

Quote from: liberated on January 19, 2010, 04:29 AM
Debunker always leaves the argument or tries to change the topic when he's about to lose.

It is the usual brick wall that most theists confront; the belief in free will and yet predestination at the same time.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #77 - January 19, 2010, 07:15 AM

Quote from: pure.virtual on January 19, 2010, 02:25 AM
I'm saying an able god don't need me...
a needy god is not able...
an unable entity is not god....

and your god don't exist

I liiiike. TAKBIR!
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #78 - January 19, 2010, 07:52 AM

Quote from: debunker on January 18, 2010, 11:15 PM
Yeah, many Muslims are actually too busy worshipping themselves...

And I didn't say that one has to stick to Islam specifically, only accept the argument for the Oneness of God, the creator God...

Anyway, I read you got tired of posting on forums, but if you want me to start that thread in the Exclusive Rooms, then I will.

Yes I am tired of posting on forums - or at least it's the endless debates that never get anywhere - that I'm tired of.

But if you'd like to discuss with me, that's fine, though I may not always reply immediately nor am I interested in proving anything. (Could I please ask Berbs, Oz or Cheetah or someone to set it up as I've forgotten how it works - thanks.)
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #79 - January 19, 2010, 08:54 AM

@ Hassan

Quote
Yes I am tired of posting on forums - or at least it's the endless debates that never get anywhere - that I'm tired of.

You're right debates sometimes become endless.. anyway, let's not think of it as a debate but more like a discussion. I am not expecting you'd be convinced in my arguments/statement either... perhaps I'm just interested in your comments.

Quote
But if you'd like to discuss with me, that's fine, though I may not always reply immediately nor am I interested in proving anything.

Actually it would be best if we took our time at responding, on a weekly basis for example (I really have to concentrate on finishing up my studies, so answering on weekends only might be the best way to do it).

Thanks Hassan.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #80 - January 19, 2010, 01:25 PM

OK, cool - I have opened up a thread in the link below. (For some reason I mistakenly thought it had to be opened by a mod.):

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8392.new#new
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #81 - January 19, 2010, 01:59 PM

Hassan, what do you make of debunker's 'wali' argument.. Did you read it? To debunker.. I would like a second opinion as I am not a native Arabic speaker...

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #82 - January 19, 2010, 02:20 PM

well, read the verses 60:1-9. The last two verses are crystal clear on this issue... we can be friends with those who don't persecute us.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #83 - January 19, 2010, 02:36 PM

Quote from: ras111 on January 19, 2010, 01:59 PM
Hassan, what do you make of debunker's 'wali' argument.. Did you read it? To debunker.. I would like a second opinion as I am not a native Arabic speaker...

hi ras, being a native Arabic speaker i do recognize the validity of debunker interpretation of the word "wali", it does have the ability and likelihood to mean "guardian/lord/chief" or someone you oblige yourself to follow by duty, law, or respect

however on the argument put i have to ask debunker this:
knowing the fact that Mohammad said: "if you see them(Christians/Jews/non-believers) in the street, then narrow the street for them", how can you befriend someone you aren't supposed to let pass in his way with ease?
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #84 - January 19, 2010, 02:38 PM

Search for 60:1-9 at this site: http://al-quran.info

I personally use the translations of Shakir, Arberry, Ahmed Ali and Abdel Haleem.
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #85 - January 19, 2010, 02:47 PM

How do you people find the translations of Yusuf Ali then? I heard that his translation is recognised and widely accepted

"Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #86 - January 19, 2010, 02:50 PM

Quote from: ras111
How do you people find the translations of Yusuf Ali then? I heard that his translation is recognised and widely accepted

I find his translations acceptable.

I personally like to stick to the three;

Muhammad Asad
Yusuf Ali
Picktall

For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who refuse to understand, no explanation is possible.
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #87 - January 19, 2010, 02:53 PM

Quote from: ras111 on January 19, 2010, 02:47 PM
How do you people find the translations of Yusuf Ali then? I heard that his translation is recognised and widely accepted

i don't care if its popular or coming from someone who is highly credited, talking Islamic sharia interpretation(which i studied) truly supports the view of debunkers

however debunker still has to answer the question i asked:

knowing the fact that Mohammad said: "if you see them(Christians/Jews/non-believers) in the street, then narrow the street for them", how can you befriend someone you aren't supposed to let pass in his way with ease?
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #88 - January 19, 2010, 03:20 PM

Quote
knowing the fact that Mohammad said: "if you see them(Christians/Jews/non-believers) in the street, then narrow the street for them", how can you befriend someone you aren't supposed to let pass in his way with ease?

When a Hadith contradicts the Quran, I reject it immediately. For example, we all know according to Quran that no one except God knows when this world will end... In Bukhari, we find a Hadith where the prophet tells his followers the world will end in 100 years... why should I accept it when it's a full blown contradiction to Quran (that and the fact that the world hasn't ended yet)?

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #89 - January 19, 2010, 03:43 PM

intresting....so when a hadith contradicts qoran we write off the hadith because we know the qoran is much respected than the hadith!

ok so what happens for all the other hadith that don't have a contradiction in the qoran (think the qoran never mentioned that topic)
how can we claim that hadith is a legitimate source of information when we have presence of information that is contradictory of the true knowladge(the qoran) in the same source?
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