Stories of the Qur'an

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #120 - January 20, 2010, 01:20 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 20, 2010, 01:00 PM
Hey blackdawg,

I of course do not agree with the veiws in the video. However if you yourself do think the Quran says the solar system is geocentric and that the Earth is flat, it would be much more appropriate if you gave your reasons ('or proofs') then I could debate that.

Abu Yunus

I have to admit I still havn't read your blog. I will. I have a feeling you?ll ask me to read it if we continue this discussion haha but I think you know what I meant. The verses he mentioned in support of his views are the ones I object to. You mean to tell me these verses (and others related to them in the Quran) clearly speak of a heliocentric universe and a spherical earth and yet this miracle eluded muslims before Copernicus ever showed up? before kepler? before Galileo?

its always the same, the scientific miracle of the quran discovered AFTER the scientific discovery and always attached with the "The Quran is not a science book" disclaimer just to cover all bases. Or the verbal gymnastics when the scientific discovery clearly disproves the scientific miracle of the past (like the embryology part of the Quran).

it gets a bit tedious after a while. I bet you, 50-100 years from now when theory evolution is so firmly based that arguing against it would be as perverse as arguing against a spherical earth and a heliocentric solar system people will find proof for evolution in the quran. in fact some already do OR by then the quran will be seen a metaphorical book with wisdoms of faith and good behaviour, rather like how most people look at the bible today

you dont think its strange that we have to consult with scholars and apologists to explain what these verses (and other) really mean? i thought the quran was meant to be clear? And that there were allegorical verses and literal verses. That it has no contradictions? and then it asks to produce a work like it, its asking to be falsified. I mean seriously..

and when we make objections about the verses and the meanings and interpretations we are seen as kuffars, or being arrogant in our disbelief? no mention of rationality at all, just that we choose not believe, sort of like a child holding his ears when an adult is clearly telling him he is wrong
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #121 - January 20, 2010, 01:26 PM

ras111, stop being so one-dimesional - have you ever seen anti-matter? Antimatter can probably make just about anything, just like the matter in our world can make just about anything. Hence Jinns can exist in an anti-matter world whilst being made from fire (although I do not discount the possibility that 'fire' is a metaphorical term - it indeed may well be). Do you really think you know everything?

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #122 - January 20, 2010, 01:38 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 20, 2010, 01:26 PM
Do you really think you know everything?

Do you? If not, then can we at least agree that you should remain/are agnostic to religion until you have clear proof? Particularly if you are going to take it as a guiding light for you & your childs life

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #123 - January 20, 2010, 01:40 PM

Blackdog, I do not claim that the Quran implicitly states that the solar system is either geocentric or heliocentric - you could not make a truly valid case for either (this is something I in fact discussed with Soren on my blog). In addition you can not make a case from verses of the Quran saying the earth is either flat or spherical - again you'd have to take a very presumptive approach to start making these claims either way.

In general, I do not go round making claims of 'scientific miracles' in the Quran. But i do beleive that there are certain verses that clearly do seem to be describing nature or physical reality that are not metaphorical - I simply try to defend these and show they do not contradict modern science - that is the reason why I included a response to Hassans scientific miracles video in my blog.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #124 - January 20, 2010, 01:42 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 20, 2010, 01:38 PM
Do you? If not, then can we at least agree that you should remain/are agnostic to religion until you have clear proof? Particularly if you are going to take it as a guiding light for you & your childs life

No, I acknowledege I don't know everything, in fact I'm quite dumb. This modesty and humility forms part of the basis of my faith in God.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #125 - January 20, 2010, 01:46 PM

Islame, ps I will let my children make up their own mind about religion.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #126 - January 20, 2010, 02:06 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 20, 2010, 01:42 PM
No, I acknowledege I don't know everything, in fact I'm quite dumb.

This modesty and humility forms part of the basis of my faith in God.

I see what you mean, but acknowledging you dont know everything should in fact make you agnostic

God is not a personal thing, he either exists or he doesnt. Neither you or I can collectively prove either assumption, so its not about modesty or humility, its about what WE know & what WE dont know.

One day WE as a race might come to a general consensus, until then isnt it right to at least remain sceptical or agnostic?

I dont quite understand how the existance of a creator came into the discussion, its a bit of a staawman as its irrelevent to the subject of Islam being a manmade entitity, or at least in my case it was.

More to the point, I also believe a creator might exist. However you are more specific than this. Your take, correct me i I am wrong, is that a specific type of creator must exist with certain characteristics & desires. This specific creator dictated the quran and a particular man was his messenger.

This is the bit I dont understand at all, at least your 100% certainty that is at its core. Forgive me for being so crude but it just sounds like brainwashing to me

Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 20, 2010, 01:46 PM
Islame, ps I will let my children make up their own mind about religion.

I think this is very admirable.

However, unless you have a girl, I assume you already have made your son undergo genital circumsicion or would have done if it had been.

I assume the quran was read into its ear on birth, will take it to Friday prayer, teach it to read the Quran at 7 years of age etc. - this to me is not letting its mind be free, in fact its setting its mind to live within the boundaries of the Islamic cage.

And history has shown few break out from such a cage, no matter what religion you are born into.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #127 - January 20, 2010, 02:21 PM

''God is not a personal thing''

Of course I can not prove it, but I think if we as individuals open our hearts, then we do have a personal connection to God. Therefore once we submit, faith becomes much easier.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #128 - January 20, 2010, 02:34 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 20, 2010, 02:21 PM
''God is not a personal thing''

Of course I can not prove it, but I think if we as individuals open our hearts, then we do have a personal connection to God. Therefore once we submit, faith becomes much easier.

Yes, but all of us here submitted to God in one way or another. Believe it or not, some here had even more faith than you at one time - some even went round knocking on peoples doors to spread the word, and then left it.

So whilst making your brain believe it God, obviously makes it easier to believe in a God, it still does not make it true.

Having a personal connection to God does not mean he exists. Or you could argue that Hindus personal connection with elephant Gods, or multiplicitous Gods, makes them true too..

Can you have another go at answering my above, or do you agree with me that we are all really agnostics. Sorry to keep banging on about this, but I cannot get my head round it otherwise.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #129 - January 20, 2010, 05:19 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 20, 2010, 01:26 PM
ras111, stop being so one-dimesional - have you ever seen anti-matter? Antimatter can probably make just about anything, just like the matter in our world can make just about anything. Hence Jinns can exist in an anti-matter world whilst being made from fire (although I do not discount the possibility that 'fire' is a metaphorical term - it indeed may well be). Do you really think you know everything?

No but I do know that something living need is organic and that fire needs something to oxidise to release carbon dioxide and water. Again you are assuming that it is being used in a metaphorical sense. Many Muslims would say that it is intended in the literal sense. Besides from the little I know about dark matter, it does not react with electromagnetic radiation which would mean that it would not be visible as light or fire. I haven't seen dark matter, but no one in this world has either, hence its name Dark matter only interacts with normal matter via gravity.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #130 - January 20, 2010, 05:55 PM

Hey ras111,

sorry about my rather abrupt answer earlier. dark matter and antimatter are not the same thing. dark matter is the so far undiscovered stuff that probably holds galaxies together and explains some aspects of their motion i.e. dark matter has a gravitational influence on galaxies so we know it must exist (although we can't see it with telescopes).

Anti-matter can be produced in particle accelerators. However all the matter in our Universe that we can detect appears to be made up of matter, which is confusing to physicists since the Universe should have produced as much antimatter as matter - where all the antimatter went no-one knows and is a question that perplexes physicists.

Although its possible that dark matter could be the anti-matter there are strong experimental reasons to doubt this and most physicists hold the veiw that they are distinct.

Therefore I know it sounds like a ridiculous notion, but the anti-matter world may compose the world of the Jinns - where this antimatter world is no-one knows and why the heck indeed we can't detect any of it again no-one knows (this is a good thing since if a matter particle meets it's antimatter particle they annihilate each other to producing pure energy!). But again PLEASE note that I'm of course not saying that I know this is the case - I'm just trying to demonstrate (hopefully) that science is not a good reason not to beleive in God or any religion in my opinion - since there are things we really have no clue about.

Therefore yes, I do beleive Jinns could exist that live in a 'world' we can't see or detect - are they really literally made of fire - I don't know - in my opinion it's probably a metaphorical term.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #131 - January 20, 2010, 06:15 PM

So you agree then that fairies, demons, spirits etc can also exist?

Because whatever you say, it's a very generic assertion. According to your logic we cannot rule out any supernatural entity and thus your commitment to Islam makes little sense because - according to your reasoning - you are unjustly ruling out pagan spirits, hindu gods and other deities.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #132 - January 20, 2010, 06:20 PM

That's alright Yunus... I have just discovered that I actually misread your previous argument and thought that you were referring to dark matter rather than antimatter. For jinns to be described as beings made of fire, according to your theory then they are not really made of fire but reacting with matter and giving off light which means that definitely do not survive for more then a few seconds...

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #133 - January 20, 2010, 06:24 PM

Iblis, whasguanin bedrin?

Actually the existence of one true God makes sense to me whereas paganism, polythesim does not. The way the universe is structured and the symmetries that exist in its physical laws and their coherence all point to a single Creator.

I was wondering when the old richard dawkins fairy comment would be made - far overdue!

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #134 - January 20, 2010, 06:32 PM

Quote from: ras111 on January 20, 2010, 06:20 PM
That's alright Yunus... I have just discovered that I actually misread your previous argument and thought that you were referring to dark matter rather than antimatter. For jinns to be described as beings made of fire, according to your theory then they are not really made of fire but reacting with matter and giving off light which means that definitely do not survive for more then a few seconds...

ras, Actually the antimatter is not interacting with matter - otherwise we'd be witnessing annihilations of colossal proportions throughout the universe. The antimatter and matter are therefore somehow being kept distinct from each other - again this is a mystery of physics - the universe should really consist of light (from matter/anti matter annihilations) and little else. Therefore if the jinn world really is composed of antimatter, they would be surviving just as long as we are surviving!

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #135 - January 20, 2010, 06:44 PM

Hey ras, just to prove I'm not crazy - i just found a good article that was in new scientist, it's definitley worth a read:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16780-antimatter-mysteries-1-where-is-all-the-antimatter.html

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #136 - January 20, 2010, 06:51 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 20, 2010, 06:24 PM
Iblis, whasguanin bedrin?

Actually the existence of one true God makes sense to me whereas paganism, polythesim does not. The way the universe is structured and the symmetries that exist in its physical laws and their coherence all point to a single Creator.

I was wondering when the old richard dawkins fairy comment would be made - far overdue!

It wasn't a comment invented by Richard Dawkins, its a fairly simply concept. Your reasoning does not specifiy which god or gods to believe in. So you still haven't properly explained why you pick out Allah specifically instead of the Hindu Gods who are, according to theist reasoning, just as likely to exist. In fact considering teh chaos of cause and effect that dominates the universe, I think its more reasonable to believe in the polytheistic notions of multiples gods presiding over various forces of nature and human conduct.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #137 - January 20, 2010, 09:15 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 20, 2010, 06:32 PM
ras, Actually the antimatter is not interacting with matter - otherwise we'd be witnessing annihilations of colossal proportions throughout the universe. The antimatter and matter are therefore somehow being kept distinct from each other - again this is a mystery of physics - the universe should really consist of light (from matter/anti matter annihilations) and little else. Therefore if the jinn world really is composed of antimatter, they would be surviving just as long as we are surviving!

I did not say that it was, I said that for the jinn to be on earth and seen then it must have come into contact with matter.. The quran talks about the Jinns working for Solomon. A shoddy description of their creation does not do credit to their supposedly all mighty creator either.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #138 - January 20, 2010, 07:09 PM

Quote from: Iblis on January 20, 2010, 06:51 PM
It wasn't a comment invented by Richard Dawkins, its a fairly simply concept. Your reasoning does not specifiy which god or gods to believe in. So you still haven't properly explained why you pick out Allah specifically instead of the Hindu Gods who are, according to theist reasoning, just as likely to exist. In fact considering teh chaos of cause and effect that dominates the universe, I think its more reasonable to believe in the polytheistic notions of multiples gods presiding over various forces of nature and human conduct.

Agreed.

Abu Yunus.

What Iblis said also relates to Zeus for that matter. You can change the name of Allah for Zeus in the Quran. And give it to somebody who has never heard of the Quran or Allah or Zeus for that matter. You really think they would be able to tell the difference? If you say well you can do that for just about everything. Switching names doesn't change anything. And I would agree, but why are you so sure that Allah is the one that exists?

Because Allah says so in the Quran?

I am not being sarcastic, or mocking you. If I were still Muslim I would think a person like this is taking the piss. But I would also take it for granted that in fact it is Allah that is real God, the God, El-Lah. But that is something that I have grown up with. There is nothing that says I would have thought like that if my parents told me Zeus is God.
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #139 - January 20, 2010, 07:53 PM

''I did not say that it was, I said that for the jinn to be on earth and seen then it must have come into contact with matter.. The quran talks about the Jinns working for Solomon.''

ras, yes but anihilation only occurs when a matter particle meets it's own antimatter particle (i.e. not just any antimatter particle). So if i came into contact with some antimatter I only would get anihilated if that antimatter was composed of partner antimatter particles to my specific matter particles. In general we know that partner matter/antimatter pairs must be kept seperate from each other, otherwise we would frequently observe such annihilations. Therefore if you do ever meet an antimatter version of yourself, I wouldn't shake hands with him - but you should be fine interacting with any other antimatter (although as i think i mentioned earlier no-one has ever come across or observed large concentrations of naturally occuring antimatter before).

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #140 - January 20, 2010, 08:42 PM

Iblis and Blackdawg, if you feel the laws of physics and nature point toward multiple creators rather than just the one that's your call. I haven't expressed the reason I believe Islam to be true on this thread because I know I will just get dragged into another lengthy debate. However, I do summarize the reasons in a section of my blog called 'Faith'. It's very short so you probably won't mind taking a look:

http://abuyunus2.wordpress.com/5-faith

I already know you will disagree with my reasoning - but I guess that's what separates us

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #141 - January 20, 2010, 08:47 PM

Quote from: IsLame on January 20, 2010, 02:34 PM
Yes, but all of us here submitted to God in one way or another. Believe it or not, some here had even more faith than you at one time - some even went round knocking on peoples doors to spread the word, and then left it.

So whilst making your brain believe it God, obviously makes it easier to believe in a God, it still does not make it true.

Having a personal connection to God does not mean he exists. Or you could argue that Hindus personal connection with elephant Gods, or multiplicitous Gods, makes them true too..

Can you have another go at answering my above post, or do you agree with me that we are all really agnostics. Sorry to keep banging on about this, but I cannot get my head round it otherwise.

Knock Knock, anyone there

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #142 - January 20, 2010, 08:49 PM

Islame, please see my response to iblis and blackdoggy above

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #143 - January 20, 2010, 08:53 PM

I did, but can you expand on the specific questions asked, because they dont seem to have been answered in their posts.. thanks

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #144 - January 20, 2010, 08:59 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 20, 2010, 07:53 PM
''I did not say that it was, I said that for the jinn to be on earth and seen then it must have come into contact with matter.. The quran talks about the Jinns working for Solomon.''

ras, yes but anihilation only occurs when a matter particle meets it's own antimatter particle

Aren't organisms made up of particles? The air contains quite a lot of some those particles as does water and many surfaces.

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #145 - January 20, 2010, 09:07 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 20, 2010, 06:24 PM
Iblis, whasguanin bedrin?

The way the universe is structured and the symmetries that exist in its physical laws and their coherence all point to a single Creator.

Abu Yunus does the opposite also apply? Does chaos and the asymmetrical nature of existence then point to multiple Gods/absence of God/s?
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #146 - January 20, 2010, 09:14 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 20, 2010, 05:55 PM

Therefore yes, I do beleive Jinns could exist that live in a 'world' we can't see or detect - are they really literally made of fire - I don't know - in my opinion it's probably a metaphorical term.

Salams Abu Yunus

I asked a question when you first started posting regarding how we decide which verse of the Quran is to be taken as literal, and which are metaphorical. However, I do appreciate that you were completely snowed under by so many questions from lots of people! You have mentioned the term metaphorical once again. If you have a moment, could you perhaps elaborate on how one can differentiate - particularly if, as you state, we can not rely on the Sahih hadeeth or tafisrs of the classical scholars?
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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #147 - January 20, 2010, 10:51 PM

Indeed why should that interpretation be taken metaphorically, when the story of creationism cannot? You said that you had problems accepting evolution if I recall well

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #148 - January 20, 2010, 10:53 PM

Quote from: abuk on January 20, 2010, 09:07 PM
Abu Yunus does the opposite also apply? Does chaos and the asymmetrical nature of existence then point to multiple Gods/absence of God/s?

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Re: Stories of the Qur'an - Solomon
Reply #149 - January 21, 2010, 12:40 PM

ras, but you're assuming that the anitmatter Jinns would be made up from is like the matter that is present on earth - this may not necessarily be the case. I'm not saying that Jinns are necessarily made up from 'anti-dark matter' - but dark matter is actually a very good example - non baryonic dark matter is not made up of electrons, protons, neutrons and known neutrinos that we know and love but is proposed to be made up of of exotic particles such as axions, sterile neutrinos, and WIMPS which are not part of the standard model of particle physics (i.e. the list of particles that make up you, me, the earth and parts of the universe we know about). Although the antimatter world might well parallel the physics and chemistry of our matter world, we do not know for certain that this is the case, hence even non-dark matter made from exotic particles is a possibility.

Note in general that I am not trying to say that things are probably one way or the other - what I've been trying to do in the thread is to show that there are lots of things about science we don't know about and things we are just utterly clueless about - therefore science is not a good reason to not beleive in God or aspects of religion we might find quite strange.

abuk, I do appreciate your metaphorical/literal question and will try and provide an answer at the weekend. Although as others on here probably will tell you my answers are rarely satisfactory

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