The Story of Sulayman

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #180 - February 09, 2010, 11:49 AM

Quote from: IsLame on February 09, 2010, 12:04 AM
You are right, and I warned you about this when you first posted as I knew this would happen, I think I told you to take critisicm with a pinch of salt or something like that, and you said dont worry, you would.

Look its an exmuslim forum where all of the exmuslims have suffered rejection and non acceptance from fellow muslims. As a fellow hadith rejector, you will understand where we are coming from if you are open about it.

There is a lot of in built hatred, that you will have to learn to excuse, but rest assured little of it is meant - most of us still have parents, siblings that are still muslims

I find a wider problem is its perception by the world at large. This is where I believe you should really be worrying and focusing- perhaps even start a thread on it here to guage views.

Double standards by the Ummah is now recognised by non-muslims, not just by the liberal part of the community as was the case when we were kids, and this is having a domino affect on how they are treated. Sometimes overly exaggerated (I think the cherie booth thread here is a classic example)

Thanks Islame for your post. My concerns of course are not actually the way I have been treated on this forum - everyone (most of the time!) has given me a warm welcome and I am appreciative of this. But if I can speak candidly, sometimes I get the feeling that quite a few people on here including a few of the more senior members would be happy if Islam was completely irradicated. I can't figure out whether CEMB is against Political Islam or just Islam in general. Of course you guys have every right to criticize Islam in general but it's comments like 'Muslims are poisoning the minds of their children by teaching them Islam' or 'lets leave the absurdity of religion behind us and come into the 21st century' that I don't like. Most people who never were Muslims seem a lot more tolerant regarding Islam to me whether it's politicians across the world or people you meet in your everyday life.

But anyway that's enough complaining - it's your forum and you guys can say what you like - I just thought I'd share my perspective.

Peace

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #181 - February 09, 2010, 11:51 AM

Quote from: NineBerry on February 09, 2010, 12:15 AM
You know, maybe it's not talking about Sulayman's walking stick at all, maybe it's talking about his other -you know- "stick" and the Djinn certainly knew that Sulayman was dead when his "stick" fell off, because some worms were eating away on it..

Nineberry - thanks for that bro. I will use this in my agrument with Hassan next time. hehe

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #182 - February 09, 2010, 12:11 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 08, 2010, 09:39 PM
If there is a God, Debunker - he cannot be this depressing cruel petty monster that wants an excuse to say to his weak and pathetic creatures that he set on paths they have little control over:

"I told you so!"

So you've met God before Hassan? You're smart enough to know God's mind and reasons? You're smart enough to know His intentions? Or is it more likely that we are incapable of understanding the God that created the entire universe? Shouldn't we show a little more humbleness and humility?

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #183 - February 09, 2010, 12:54 PM

greetings and my good wishes to you dear abuyunus2., Boy you put out lots of posts 190 or so., So glad that you are active here., fro the posts above you say
Quote

1). But if I can speak candidly, sometimes I get the feeling that quite a few people on here including a few of the more senior members would be happy if Islam was completely irradicated. I can't figure out whether CEMB is against Political Islam or just Islam in general. Of course you guys have every right to criticize Islam in general but it's comments like 'Muslims are poisoning the minds of their children by teaching them Islam' or 'lets leave the absurdity of religion behind us and come into the 21st century' that I don't like. Most people who never were Muslims seem a lot more tolerant regarding Islam to me whether it's politicians across the world or people you meet in your everyday life.

May I ask you a simple question dear abuyunus2?.,

Ideally what kind of CRITICISM of Islamyou like?? could you please give some examples from your posts?

And what kind of Muslims would you like to criticize? Some names of famous personalities from Islam would be very useful. Go back all the way to prophet times.. 1400 years back, and pick up the names of well known Muslims .. 14 names,one name per century that you think such Muslims Must be criticized in forums like CEMB.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #184 - February 09, 2010, 01:06 PM

Quote
Hassan to Debunker
Quote
If there is a God, Debunker - he cannot be this depressing cruel petty monster that wants an excuse to say to his weak and pathetic creatures that he set on paths they have little control over:

"I told you so!"

abuyunus2 comments on the above response of Hasan:
Quote
So you've met God before Hassan? You're smart enough to know God's mind and reasons? You're smart enough to know His intentions? Or is it more likely that we are incapable of understanding the God that created the entire universe? Shouldn't we show a little more humbleness and humility?

dear abuyunus2 I am not ceratin that you understood what Hassan is trying to convey., His words
Quote
" cannot be this depressing cruel petty monster that wants an excuse to say to his weak and pathetic creatures that he set on paths they have little control over"

are aimed scriptures, Quran as well as OT. What all he is saying is ., God described in scriptures, that God has no control on Rogues and their actions who do all sorts of criminal activities in the name of God and yet they are powerful on this earth and yet God created them..

That is the point there., I am sure Hassan will elaborate and express better than me..

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #185 - February 09, 2010, 01:12 PM

yeevezee, I'm not really into the whole criticizing other people thing, but as I said earlier I have never objected to people voicing their criticisms of Islam no matter how harsh the criticisms are - if you go through my post history you'll see this.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #186 - February 09, 2010, 01:17 PM

Quote
yeevezee, I'm not really into the whole criticizing other people thing, but as I said earlier I have never objected to people voicing their criticisms of Islam no matter how harsh the criticisms are ..

nice to see your quick reply dear abuyunus2., But..but

you did it to Hassan above., didn't you.. Correct me if I am wrong dear abu..

or you think this what you said
Quote
So you've met God before Hassan? You're smart enough to know God's mind and reasons? You're smart enough to know His intentions? Or is it more likely that we are incapable of understanding the God that created the entire universe? Shouldn't we show a little more humbleness and humility?

is NOT criticism but you are trying to teach Hassan about God.. the way you understand God..

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #187 - February 09, 2010, 01:31 PM

No I wasn't saying that Hassan is not allowed to share his thoughts on God - I was simply replying with my thoughts - I'm allowed to do this right? That's why I used the word 'we' and not 'you' to Hassan in the last couple of sentences.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #188 - February 09, 2010, 01:37 PM

Quote
No I wasn't saying that Hassan is not allowed to share his thoughts on God - I was simply replying with my thoughts - I'm allowed to do this right? That's why I used the word 'we' and not 'you' to Hassan in the last sentence.

Oh I see., I got your point., I didn't read your post carefully dear abu.,

So your point is.

"You are O.K. with people criticizing Islam or for that matter other religions., Scriptures+ actions of Muslim"., BUT YOU DON'T LIKE TO PARTICIPATE IN CRITICIZING Islam and its followers irrespective of what they do. Off course same thing goes to other religions also"

Did I get that right dear abu and is it a right thing to do ??

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #189 - February 09, 2010, 01:46 PM

yeezevee, If you go through my post history I criticize hadith and some tafsir quite vehemently - in fact I reject them almost completely - I think this is more useful than criticising Muslims individually - both me and Hassan would agree on this. In addition if you read through my blog you will see that I criticize quite vehemently terrorists who call themselves Muslims. I also do not like terrorist sympathisers.

Good enough for you or would you like a list of the names of people I don't like?

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #190 - February 09, 2010, 02:00 PM

Quote
yeezevee, If you go through my post history I criticize hadith and some tafsir quite vehemently - in fact I reject them almost completely - I think this is more useful than criticising Muslims individually - both me and Hassan would agree on this. In addition if you read through my blog you will see that I criticize quite vehemently terrorists who call themselves Muslims. I also do not like terrorist sympathisers.

you do have point there, I have NOT read all of your posts dear abu.,

So, your point is, you criticize hadith and some Muslims who you think are terrorists., but they think themselves as the followers of Allah will., But don't you want to give them credit that they indeed Die for their religion .. for the sake of Islam and for the sake of propagating Islam? Without them and the rules in Islam that comes out of Hadith+ Quran I don't think Islam would have been what it is today. Do you disagree with me??

More over Hadith is NOT SCRIPTURE., that stupid story stuff is written way after death of Muhammad.. Prophet of Islam, so why even worry about it?

But would it be wrong for you to criticize Quran, Bible, xyz religious scriptures if you consider that there is something really wrong in these scriptures and harmful to the society that follows these scriptures?? Or you would like to neglect the scriptures and the folk that follows these religious scripture because there are large number of followers and you think that you are insulting these folk??

Or you may get harmed because of your criticism??

Quote
Good enough for you or would you like a list of the names of people I don't like?

yes .. yes that is very useful., take it from history not just the present bunch..

with best wishes
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #191 - February 09, 2010, 02:14 PM

''But would it be wrong for you to criticize Quran, Bible, xyz religious scriptures if you consider that there is something really wrong in these scriptures and harmful to the society that follows these scriptures?? Or you would like to neglect the scriptures and the folk that follows these religious scripture because there are large number of followers and you think that you are insulting these folk??''

So basically what you're saying is that you want to tell Muslims, Christians, Jews etc. what's good for them? You want to tell them how to live their lives? You think they lack the intelligence to make their own minds up about religion? You think they don't understand their own scriptures and you want to point out the stuff they don't understand? Although we believe our scriptures to be the word of God you want us to criticise it anyway?

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #192 - February 09, 2010, 02:15 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 09, 2010, 11:49 AM
'Muslims are poisoning the minds of their children by teaching them Islam'

OMG - I dont know what to say, as I actually agree with this. If my child followed the quran, along with all its teachings, I believe that I would have failed them. How would you feel if your son grew up to follow the Vedas?

Perhaps we should start a separate thread on this, as I am sure you will disagree but as its bothering you I think its important that we clear the air so you can empathise with this position/ point out where it is wrong.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #193 - February 09, 2010, 02:17 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on February 09, 2010, 02:00 PM

yes .. yes that is very useful., take it from history not just the present bunch..

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #194 - February 09, 2010, 02:39 PM

Quote
Quote
''But would it be wrong for you to criticize Quran, Bible, xyz religious scriptures if you consider that there is something really wrong in these scriptures and harmful to the society that follows these scriptures?? Or you would like to neglect the scriptures and the folk that follows these religious scripture because there are large number of followers and you think that you are insulting these folk??''

Quote
abuyunus2 : So basically what you're saying is that you want to tell Muslims, Christians, Jews etc. what's good for them? You want to tell them how to live their lives? You think they lack the intelligence to make their own minds up about religion? You think they don't understand their own scriptures and you want to point out the stuff they don't understand? Although we believe our scriptures to be the word of God you want us to criticise it anyway?

yes I would like to have freedom to criticize ANY BOOK whether people consider it from God/Allah or Not., Not only that I would like others( ALL PEOPLE) to have FULL FREEDOM to criticize religious books OPENLY . What is wrong with that dear abu??

It is not that question of they, we or me., Any religion and any religious scripture or /social/ political movements that are based on books irrespective of whether they are God or NOT ., of they are against to HUMAN RIGHTS, I think they need to be corrected and Must be corrected.

am I wrong in thinking that way dear abu??

you gave some names here., i don't think that answers my response to you
Quote
The entire Tottenham football team (past and present)
John Terry and the rest of those chavs
Alex Ferguson and the rest of those Mancs

let me paste that again..
Quote
Ideally what kind of CRITICISM of Islamyou like?? could you please give some examples from your posts?

And what kind of Muslims would you like to criticize? Some names of famous personalities from Islam would be very useful. Go back all the way to prophet times.. 1400 years back, and pick up the names of well known Muslims .. 14 names,one name per century that you think such Muslims Must be criticized in forums like CEMB.

with best wishes
yeezevee

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #195 - February 09, 2010, 03:14 PM

''yes I would like to have freedom to criticize ANY BOOK whether people consider it from God/Allah or Not., Not only that I would like others( ALL PEOPLE) to have FULL FREEDOM to criticize religious books OPENLY . What is wrong with that dear abu??

It is not that question of they, we or me., Any religion and any religious scripture or /social/ political movements that are based on books irrespective of whether they are God or NOT ., of they are against to HUMAN RIGHTS, I think they need to be corrected and Must be corrected.''

As I've repeatedly stated quite a few times yeezevee - I fully support your right to criticize any book whether it be the Quran, Bibile etc. I've never ever told anyone not to criticize the Quran although of course I have argued against such criticisms which I'm sure you'll agree I'm free to do. What I was trying to get at is that you seem to be expecting kind peaceful Muslims, Christians and Jews etc. (I'm sure you'll agree the majority of religous people are peaceful and law abiding) to criticize their own scriptures even though they beleive them to be the word of God and you seem to be telling them to 'rectify' their scriptures so that they can fit into todays society. This doesn't seem reasonable to me.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #196 - February 09, 2010, 03:44 PM

Quote
As I've repeatedly stated quite a few times yeezevee - I fully support your right to criticize any book whether it be the Quran, Bibile etc. I've never ever told anyone not to criticize the Quran although of course I have argued against such criticisms which I'm sure you'll agree I'm free to do.

Good.. that is wonderful off course you must be free to argue and even correct those whom you think are criticizing Quran/Islam unfairly dear abu.. But let me again paste something that you might have not read in my responses and that is
Quote
you gave some names here., i don't think that answers my response to you
Quote
The entire Tottenham football team (past and present)
John Terry and the rest of those chavs
Alex Ferguson and the rest of those Mancs

let me paste that again..
Quote
Ideally what kind of CRITICISM of Islamyou like?? could you please give some examples from your posts?

And what kind of Muslims would you like to criticize? Some names of famous personalities from Islam would be very useful. Go back all the way to prophet times.. 1400 years back, and pick up the names of well known Muslims .. 14 names,one name per century that you think such Muslims Must be criticized in forums like CEMB.

your point down here seem to have an ASSUMPTION without proof from my posts and that is
Quote
What I was trying to get at is that you seem to be expecting kind peaceful Muslims, Christians and Jews etc. to criticize their own scriptures even though they beleive them to be the word of God and you seem to be telling them to 'rectify' their scrptures so that they can fit into todays society. This doesn't seem reasonable to me.

No..No., I am NOT expecting anything from any one., how did you come to that conclusion dear abu??

But I would certainly not support and not only that I will WRITE AGAINST those who question people that are questioning Islam / Quran /other scriptures . Often these people used/use their political power and physical force., it is happening since Islam became dominant religion in certain part of the world.

see this video Maryam Namazie., she mentions two name of young men., in fact one was 19 year old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTqpOW04ECQ

My good friends of Islam with Power in their hands used State power to murder these folk by naming them as enemies of God.. So I am sure you too support me in my writing against such people and the scripture they use to do such dastardly brutal murders..

Don't you agree with me dear Abu?

with best regards
yeezevee

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #197 - February 09, 2010, 04:20 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on February 09, 2010, 03:44 PM
My good friends of Islam with Power in their hands used State power to murder these folk by naming them as enemies of God.. So I am sure you too support me in my writing against such people and the scripture they use to do such dastardly brutal murders..

Don't you agree with me dear Abu?

Let me answer this question on behalf of AbuY - he would simply argue that this is not what the scriptures are saying, and they are using the Quran to meet their own needs. So no, I dont think AbuY would support you in writing against the scripture because they are using it wrongly.

I think you are really after a deeper debate about whether Islam is man-made or the true word of God, and whether its message is dangerous. Perhaps start another thread as its a slightly longer subject than the story of Solomon

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #198 - February 09, 2010, 04:47 PM

@Debunker, Abu Yunus or anyone?

I'm not sure if this was addressed properly - but I'd be interested in thoughts as to why there is no evidence of Solomon's reign?
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #199 - February 09, 2010, 04:53 PM

good question..

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #200 - February 09, 2010, 04:58 PM

I guess they will fall back on the idea that lack of evidence is not evidence of non-existence.

Which is besides the point of course, since we have evidence of even obscure kingdoms and rulers in the historical record and from archeology. It's nearly impossible a kingdom like Solomon's that had none like it before according to the Quran to have pretty much no evidence for it's mere existence. Trust me, if the neighbouring assyrian or egyptian kings heard of some crazy king that commanded animals and insects .. they woulda mentioned it.

And even if Solomon existed, this would be the maximum extent of his kingdom (see israel)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/East-Hem_1000bc.jpg

Smaller than the neighbouring Egyptian, Urartu (armenian) and Babylonian kingdoms.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #201 - February 09, 2010, 05:05 PM

@ Hassan

According to Quran, Solomon's reign that was given to non other than him is his reign over demons and the elements:

See Surah Sad (#38)

قَالَ رَبِّ اغْفِرْ لِي وَهَبْ لِي مُلْكًا لَّا يَنبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ مِّنْ بَعْدِي إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْوَهَّابُ ?35? فَسَخَّرْنَا لَهُ الرِّيحَ تَجْرِي بِأَمْرِهِ رُخَاء حَيْثُ أَصَابَ ?36? وَالشَّيَاطِينَ كُلَّ بَنَّاء وَغَوَّاصٍ ?37? وَآخَرِينَ مُقَرَّنِينَ فِي الْأَصْفَادِ ?38? هَذَا عَطَاؤُنَا فَامْنُنْ أَوْ أَمْسِكْ بِغَيْرِ حِسَابٍ ?39? وَإِنَّ لَهُ عِندَنَا لَزُلْفَى وَحُسْنَ مَآبٍ ?40?

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #202 - February 09, 2010, 05:18 PM

''@ Hassan

According to Quran, Solomon's reign that was given to non other than him is his reign over demons and the elements:

See Surah Sad (#38)

قَالَ رَبِّ اغْفِرْ لِي وَهَبْ لِي مُلْكًا لَّا يَنبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ مِّنْ بَعْدِي إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْوَهَّابُ ?35? فَسَخَّرْنَا لَهُ الرِّيحَ تَجْرِي بِأَمْرِهِ رُخَاء حَيْثُ أَصَابَ ?36? وَالشَّيَاطِينَ كُلَّ بَنَّاء وَغَوَّاصٍ ?37? وَآخَرِينَ مُقَرَّنِينَ فِي الْأَصْفَادِ ?38? هَذَا عَطَاؤُنَا فَامْنُنْ أَوْ أَمْسِكْ بِغَيْرِ حِسَابٍ ?39? وَإِنَّ لَهُ عِندَنَا لَزُلْفَى وَحُسْنَ مَآبٍ ?40?''

That was my take as well - 'a kingdom of the like that shall not be granted to anyone after him' I always felt just meant the kingdom consisted of Jinn and birds as well as men. Does it actually say in the Quran how vast territorially Solomon's kingdom was anyone?

PS Thanks Islame - I was getting kinda fustrated tbh

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #203 - February 09, 2010, 05:19 PM

@ Yunus

Take this advice from me: IGNORE Yezvee.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #204 - February 09, 2010, 05:24 PM

''Take this advice from me: IGNORE Yezvee''

ok if you insist

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #205 - February 09, 2010, 05:25 PM

@ Yunus

Quote
That was my take as well - 'a kingdom of the like that shall not be granted to anyone after him' I always felt just meant the kingdom consisted of Jinn and birds as well as men. Does it actually say in the Quran how vast territorially Solomon's kingdom was anyone?

No it doesn't... but I'm sure if you read Ibn Kathir (the Arabic version), you might find 10,000 pages describing how vast the Earthly kingdom of Solomon was... this guy, Ibn Kathir, when he starts talking, he just cannot shut up... A first class clown this dude is... in fact, interpreting one verse the idiot unwittingly equated Jesus with God and that Jesus sent Simon, Paul and someone else as messengers... there's no limit to Ibn Kathir's "knowledge". In fact, he owns to his name which literally means: The Son of Much (talk/BS/etc)

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #206 - February 09, 2010, 05:25 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 09, 2010, 05:24 PM
''Take this advice from me: IGNORE Yezvee''

ok if you insist

I know the dude from FFI...

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #207 - February 09, 2010, 05:28 PM

.

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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #208 - February 09, 2010, 05:43 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on February 09, 2010, 05:18 PM
''@ Hassan

According to Quran, Solomon's reign that was given to non other than him is his reign over demons and the elements:

See Surah Sad (#38)

قَالَ رَبِّ اغْفِرْ لِي وَهَبْ لِي مُلْكًا لَّا يَنبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ مِّنْ بَعْدِي إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْوَهَّابُ ?35? فَسَخَّرْنَا لَهُ الرِّيحَ تَجْرِي بِأَمْرِهِ رُخَاء حَيْثُ أَصَابَ ?36? وَالشَّيَاطِينَ كُلَّ بَنَّاء وَغَوَّاصٍ ?37? وَآخَرِينَ مُقَرَّنِينَ فِي الْأَصْفَادِ ?38? هَذَا عَطَاؤُنَا فَامْنُنْ أَوْ أَمْسِكْ بِغَيْرِ حِسَابٍ ?39? وَإِنَّ لَهُ عِندَنَا لَزُلْفَى وَحُسْنَ مَآبٍ ?40?''

That was my take as well - 'a kingdom of the like that shall not be granted to anyone after him' I always felt just meant the kingdom consisted of Jinn and birds as well as men. Does it actually say in the Quran how vast territorially Solomon's kingdom was anyone?

PS Thanks Islame - I was getting kinda fustrated tbh

Well I assume he had kingdom of Sheba submit to him, and built an improved replica of their queen's palace or something, this suggests it was a big thing. But maybe it is as you say that there's nothing in scripture that clearly suggests it was a large kingdom.
BTW, I remember you actually consider evolution to have happened, right? If so do you consider the Adam & Eve story a metaphor only or something? If so, why not apply the same thing to Sulaiman's story?

Apologies if you had answered these questions earlier, or if I got your stance on evolution wrong.

"In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan
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Re: The Story of Sulayman
Reply #209 - February 09, 2010, 05:45 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 09, 2010, 05:05 PM
@ Hassan

According to Quran, Solomon's reign that was given to non other than him is his reign over demons and the elements:

See Surah Sad (#38)

قَالَ رَبِّ اغْفِرْ لِي وَهَبْ لِي مُلْكًا لَّا يَنبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ مِّنْ بَعْدِي إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْوَهَّابُ ?35? فَسَخَّرْنَا لَهُ الرِّيحَ تَجْرِي بِأَمْرِهِ رُخَاء حَيْثُ أَصَابَ ?36? وَالشَّيَاطِينَ كُلَّ بَنَّاء وَغَوَّاصٍ ?37? وَآخَرِينَ مُقَرَّنِينَ فِي الْأَصْفَادِ ?38? هَذَا عَطَاؤُنَا فَامْنُنْ أَوْ أَمْسِكْ بِغَيْرِ حِسَابٍ ?39? وَإِنَّ لَهُ عِندَنَا لَزُلْفَى وَحُسْنَ مَآبٍ ?40?

But it was more than this, Debunker - as you yourself said he was a warrior king - the Qur'an confirms he had a huge army powerful enough to completely overwhelm other mighty kingdoms. We know that he gained the subjugation of the Kingdom of Sheba in Yemen. We know that the Jinn did a lot of building for him and he had an amazing "lofty" palace.

Yet there is no trace of all this?

Do you not admit that this is - at the very least - a bit odd?
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