Islam and Universal Brotherhood and other things

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Islam and Universal Brotherhood and other things
OP - February 19, 2010, 12:21 PM

On the Things I like About Islam thread, Bronze gave this list of all that is ace about Islam:

Quote
- the ideal of universal brotherhood
- physical demonstrativeness, Eid embrace etc (in theory)
- all believers have direct access to holy texts, the emphasis on literacy
- the attempts at being historically accurate and rating the likelihood of hadiths etc
- Mohd. married women who were not virgins
- marraige as a contract in which both parties can make stipulations
- divorce, remarraige for women, mehr
- no dietary snobbery (the anti-pork stipulation doesn't seem to be snobbery per se)
- no alcohol/sobriety
- depilation, male circumcision
- the effects of the prohibition on human imagery (visual art made out of language, sleekness of mosques, geometrical abstractions instead of tacky depictions of people)

I think lots of these are arguable - but some are simply most egregious. The most striking is the first point that Bronze makes - because the truth is that Islam does not teach universal brotherhood. It (supposedly) teaches 'brotherhood' between Muslims. But it does not teach that kuffar are the brothers of Muslims. It actually teaches the opposite of universal brotherhood, and even asserts the righteous, natural, divine nature of this prejudice.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Islam and Universal Brotherhood and other things
Reply #1 - February 19, 2010, 12:23 PM

He means universal brotherhood, as in AFTER the kuffar submit to the will of Allah

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Reply #2 - February 19, 2010, 12:25 PM

Ah yes, and that is the sneaky dawah logic that this point actually arises in.

This is most salient in societies that privelige the idea of universal brotherhood, like nations that have a history of civil rights struggle, or are founded on the ideal of secular equality - Islam takes the rhetoric, and just tells blatant, outrageous lies about it.

Universal Brotherhood? Yeah, Islam teaches that.

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Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Reply #3 - February 19, 2010, 12:38 PM

When I was a Muslim I had a really hard time trying to square the concept of Brotherhood in Islam with my belief in a universal of brotherhood of man. I tried my hardest to interpret things in a way that would include non-Muslims as also my brothers.

But even if one says they are brothers in humanity - they are clearly excluded from the most important brotherhood - that of the believers/Muslims - and unless you have an unbelievably wide catch-all definition of what that means then obviously most of humanity is excluded from this brotherhood.

Qur'an:

"The Believers are but a single Brotherhood: So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy" (49:10)

“The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin the ma`roof (all of Islam), and forbid the munkar (all that is evil; kufr): they observe regular prayers, pay Zakat, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.” (9:71)

Hadith:

“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood.” (Hujatul-widaa')

"A Muslim is the brother of another Muslim..." (Sahih Muslim)
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Re: Islam and Universal Brotherhood and other things
Reply #4 - February 19, 2010, 12:51 PM

Here is another point from Bronze's list that is egregious:

Quote
the effects of the prohibition on human imagery (visual art made out of language, sleekness of mosques, geometrical abstractions instead of tacky depictions of people)

'Tacky' depictions of people? So the art and sculpture of Michaelangelo, Leonardo Da Vinci, Botticelli, Caravaggio, Van Gogh, Rembrandt, Picasso, is 'tacky'? The great Buddhist art of the Asian civilisations is 'tacky'?

This is just ignorance and philistinism.

Its also nonsense, because "art made out of language, sleekness of ~~mosques~~ architecture, geometrical abstractions" is not something thet exists only in the 'Islamic world', its a feature of Western art too, as well as Indian and Chinese and Japanese art. Where there are no prohibitions on human depictions in art.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Reply #5 - February 19, 2010, 02:04 PM

Quote from: billy on February 19, 2010, 12:21 PM
I think lots of these are arguable - but some are simply most egregious.

Frankly, I can't think of a single thing on that list that can be considered as universally positive by any stretch of imagination.

"all believers have direct access to holy texts, the emphasis on literacy"
You gotta be kidding me. The emphasis is on indoctrination.
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Re: Islam and Universal Brotherhood and other things
Reply #6 - February 19, 2010, 02:04 PM

You are being very silly. Just one example because I don't have time for all of it. I didn't say that prohibitions of human representation were necessary to have any of those things, I didn't even say that such a prohibition was a good idea, I said that the *effects* of the prohibition created works which are pleasing to me. Nor did I say that all representations of the human form were tacky, but tacky religious icons are ubiquitous, and as a matter of personal fact, though it might shock you, I'd rather look at the ceiling of a beautiful mosque than at the Sistine Chapel. I prefer Ustad Mansur to Picasso by a mile, I hope that does not bring on a heart-attack.

Sneaky dawa logic... I have to figure out to put that line in the bottom of all my posts, so readers may be forewarned.
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Re: Islam and Universal Brotherhood and other things
Reply #7 - February 19, 2010, 02:07 PM

Quote
- Mohd. married women who were not virgins

Let me just get my can opener, I have a can of worms I want to open

This one really is clutching at straws. Now first of all, why does Mohammad's marital impositions have any bearing on the supposed great nature of Islam? Do Muslims sit there thinking, 'Islam is so great, he married women who had been sexed before, Islam is the best'

Look, this one really is like taking candy from a baby. Lets forget about Ayesha the 6 year old girl who Mo lusted after and most certainly was a virgin before he got his hands on her. Mohammad's marital impositions (he had ELEVEN wives it total!) are sure signs of the depravity of that man, and saying that they pertain to something positive and great about the religion is actually comical.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
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Re: Islam and Universal Brotherhood and other things
Reply #8 - February 19, 2010, 02:13 PM

Quote from: bronze on February 19, 2010, 02:04 PM
You are being very silly. Just one example because I don't have time for all of it. I didn't say that prohibitions of human representation were necessary to have any of those things, I didn't even say that such a prohibition was a good idea, I said that the *effects* of the prohibition created works which are pleasing to me. Nor did I say that all representations of the human form were tacky, but tacky religious icons are ubiquitous, and as a matter of personal fact, though it might shock you, I'd rather look at the ceiling of a beautiful mosque than at the Sistine Chapel. I prefer Ustad Mansur to Picasso by a mile, I hope that does not bring on a heart-attack.

I think you just had a heart attack mate. Its a load of nonsense. Every other major artistic culture in the world has "visual art made out of language" , "sleekness of ~~mosques~~ architecture" and "geometrical abstractions" - and none of them have been in the context of a prohibition of human representation.

Of course, you may prefer to look at the ceiling of a mosque than the Sistine Chapel, but to deride, as you do, representational art in Christian contexts (because you have narrowed it down to this scope) as "tacky" is ignorant and philistine. Surely if you wish to compare like with like, if you are minded to think of kitsch Catholic iconography, compare it with the 'worst' of Islamic 'art' in the context of mosques. That's not what you're minded to do though, so it wouldn't matter.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Islam and Universal Brotherhood and other things
Reply #9 - February 19, 2010, 02:15 PM

"Mohd. married women who were not virgins"

Right!

That's why Muslims don't try and control the sexuality of "their" daughters and sisters. That's why Muslims consider an individual girl's sexuality to be her own business and certainly not anybody else’s.
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Re: Islam and Universal Brotherhood and other things
Reply #10 - February 19, 2010, 02:15 PM

Quote from: Kenan on February 19, 2010, 02:04 PM
Frankly, I can't think of a single thing on that list that can be considered as universally positive by any stretch of imagination.

"all believers have direct access to holy texts, the emphasis on literacy"
You gotta be kidding me. The emphasis is on indoctrination.

Exactly! All those children being brainwashed to read the Quran by rote in societies that don't understand a word of Arabic.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Reply #11 - February 19, 2010, 02:24 PM

Quote from: bronze on February 19, 2010, 02:04 PM
I prefer Ustad Mansur to Picasso by a mile, I hope that does not bring on a heart-attack.

No of course it doesn't. We live in a free society you know; not in a totalitarian society that prohibits human depiction or any other art form for that matter.
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Reply #12 - February 19, 2010, 03:21 PM

>>to deride, as you do, representational art in Christian contexts (because you have narrowed it down to this scope)

On the contrary, I referred to examples you gave. I think the restraint on human representation was generative in ways I enjoy, and enjoy more than looking religious representational art. That's it, really.
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Reply #13 - February 19, 2010, 03:29 PM

Quote
On the contrary, I referred to examples you gave.

The examples you gave were the ones that you used to contrast with the great Islamic art that you love - and referred to them as 'tacky'. Compare like with like. Compare the 'tacky' kitsch Islamic art with the 'tacky' kitchsh representational art of Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism, rather than its highest expressions.

Quote
I think the restraint on human representation was generative in ways I enjoy,

And yet in Western art, and Asian art, where there is no restraint on human representation, all of those things you describe as being to your liking also exist. Therefore, the restraint of human representation has nothing to do with it.

Quote
and enjoy more than looking religious representational art. That's it, really.

Right - so you just don't like religious representational art. Good for you, that's your aesthetic taste. Its got nothing whatesover to do with Islam.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Reply #14 - February 19, 2010, 03:29 PM

Quote from: billy on February 19, 2010, 02:13 PM
I think you just had a heart attack mate. Its a load of nonsense. Every other major artistic culture in the world has "visual art made out of language" , "sleekness of ~~mosques~~ architecture" and "geometrical abstractions" - and none of them have been in the context of a prohibition of human representation.

Of course, you may prefer to look at the ceiling of a mosque than the Sistine Chapel, but to deride, as you do, representational art in Christian contexts (because you have narrowed it down to this scope) as "tacky" is ignorant and philistine. Surely if you wish to compare like with like, if you are minded to think of kitsch Catholic iconography, compare it with the 'worst' of Islamic 'art' in the context of mosques. That's not what you're minded to do though, so it wouldn't matter.

Some of the "art" in many Muslims homes is extremely tacky! Huge gaudy frames with a squiggle saying Allah - or a plastic clock with moulded plastic flowers and fairy lights that sing the azan!

Limiting art to geometric designs and calligraphy will certainly focus a civilisation on getting the best out of those things - but to say it is superior to other forms of art is obviously a subjective statement born out of Islamic restrictions.

How silly to think that God would have a problem with representing the human form - I can't believe I really fell for that!
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Reply #15 - February 19, 2010, 03:33 PM

Hassan, great points.

Also, as an aside, taken to its logical conclusion, if physical representation is to be forbidden, why are photographs and film also not forbidden?

Its so very bizarre.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Reply #16 - February 19, 2010, 03:34 PM

Quote from: billy on February 19, 2010, 02:07 PM
Do Muslims sit there thinking, 'Islam is so great, he married women who had been sexed before, Islam is the best'

I don't recall the original question being "What do Muslims contemplate as reasons for Islam's greatness." I don't think I wrote anything about what Muslims think constitutes Islam's greatness or whether Muslims control their daughters.

I personally think it's just terrific that Mohd. married women who were not virgins, which I did not think was a particularly controversial thing to say. I forgot to mention that I think it's terrific that he married a woman much older than he is (who is in Shia tradition his favorite wife), who knows what hisssing that would have incited.
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Reply #17 - February 19, 2010, 03:37 PM

Quote
I personally think it's just terrific that Mohd. married women who were not virgins, which I did not think was a particularly controversial thing to say. I forgot to mention that I think it's terrific that he married a woman much older than he is (who is in Shia tradition his favorite wife), who knows what hisssing that would have incited.

Come on bronze, the only fella hissing is you.

Now, tell me, do you think its great that Mohammad married and had sex with a child? And what precisely is great about marrying some women who were not virgins? And why was he a marital profligate who imposed himself on women. Oh, and why did he marry and have sex with a child?

These are the questions that Mo's marital adventures throw up, and you think Islam is great because its prophet married a few non virgins?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Reply #18 - February 19, 2010, 03:47 PM

If you cannot see the distinction between

a) Islam is great because its prophet married a few non virgins

and

b) it's just terrific that Mohd. married women who were not virgins

then I really don't know what to say. There are umpteen threads on this board discussing Aisha, I'm not sure why it's so important that you get my own cosign that I think child marraige is badbadbad. If you really need to ask "what precisely is great about marrying some women who were not virgins", I don't think any amount of reply will suffice.
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Reply #19 - February 19, 2010, 03:47 PM

Quote from: billy on February 19, 2010, 03:33 PM
Hassan, great points.

Also, as an aside, taken to its logical conclusion, if physical representation is to be forbidden, why are photographs and film also not forbidden?

Its so very bizarre.

I believe that many Muslims would argue that photographs are not as a result of a human effort to 'represent' something. Or they just use the excuse of 'necessity'.

But many literalists/Salafis also prohibit photographs. I can't stand the literalists/Salafis but I give them credit for being honest and consistent.

Here is a ruling on it from the Salafi Islam Q&A site:

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/365/photographs
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Reply #20 - February 19, 2010, 03:53 PM

Quote from: bronze on February 19, 2010, 03:47 PM
If you cannot see the distinction between

a) Islam is great because its prophet married a few non virgins

and

b) it's just terrific that Mohd. married women who were not virgins

then I really don't know what to say. There are umpteen threads on this board discussing Aisha, I'm not sure why it's so important that you get my own cosign that I think child marraige is badbadbad. If you really need to ask "what precisely is great about marrying some women who were not virgins", I don't think any amount of reply will suffice.

So you don't know what to say, I get it.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Reply #21 - February 19, 2010, 03:56 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 19, 2010, 03:47 PM
I believe that many Muslims would argue that photographs are not as a result of a human effort to 'represent' something. Or they just use the excuse of 'necessity'.

But many literalists/Salafis also prohibit photographs. I can't stand the literalists/Salafis but I give them credit for being honest and consistent.

Here is a ruling on it from the Salafi Islam Q&A site:

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/365/photographs

Interesting.

I guess Islam, especially the salafi salad of Islam is very principled......until it finds it can't do anything about it. in which case, physical representation is OK.

Or maybe they could grade it and say that functional photographs are halal, but artistically composed pictures are haram

Having said that, surely cinema as an artform must be haram, because it does take a lot of effort of composition and and artistry to make and shoot a movie.

Oh gosh, what a tangled web!

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Islam and Universal Brotherhood and other things
Reply #22 - February 19, 2010, 04:01 PM

Quote from: bronze on February 19, 2010, 03:47 PM
"what precisely is great about marrying some women who were not virgins"

Nowadays? Frankly I can't think of a thing.

Historically? People back then were backwards to say the least, but there is this great thing called social evolution which enabled Homo sapiens to overcome stupid social norms and prohibitions.
Problem is lots of people still cling to outdated Bronze Age social norms like their very lives depend on it.

But I would still like to hear your take on this.
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Reply #23 - February 19, 2010, 04:02 PM

Quote from: Hassan on February 19, 2010, 03:29 PM
Limiting art to geometric designs and calligraphy will certainly focus a civilisation on getting the best out of those things

It's also harder to make sentimental, I think, though human ingenuity will find a way to tacky regardless.
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Reply #24 - February 19, 2010, 04:38 PM

Quote from: Kenan on February 19, 2010, 04:01 PM
Nowadays? Frankly I can't think of a thing.

Speaking of nowdays, a couple of years ago a (Muslim-born, though I don't think she lives as a Muslim now) woman named Khushboo made a comment in a magazine that nowdays no man expects his wife to be a virgin. Do you want to know what happened? There were threats against her and protest marches until she had to apologize!

Mohd's marraige to a child rightfully gets a lot of discussion but why isnt it just as worthy of discussion that he also made marraiges that are more progressive than the practices of some communities today?
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Reply #25 - February 19, 2010, 04:45 PM

Quote from: bronze on February 19, 2010, 04:38 PM
Mohd's marraige to a child rightfully gets a lot of discussion but why isnt it just as worthy of discussion that he also made marraiges that are more progressive than the practices of some communities today?

There is absolutely nothing extraordinary about Muhammad marrying non virgins. It was a very common thing for men in Muhammad's society to marry widows, many of whom were already deflowered. Their previous husbands were killed in battle and the women were left vulnerable. In a society that lives in a harsh, barren, desert landscape nothing goes to waste, especially a beautiful woman.

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Re: Islam and Universal Brotherhood and other things
Reply #26 - February 19, 2010, 04:48 PM

Quote from: bronze on February 19, 2010, 03:34 PM
I don't recall the original question being "What do Muslims contemplate as reasons for Islam's greatness." I don't think I wrote anything about what Muslims think constitutes Islam's greatness or whether Muslims control their daughters.

I personally think it's just terrific that Mohd. married women who were not virgins, which I did not think was a particularly controversial thing to say. I forgot to mention that I think it's terrific that he married a woman much older than he is (who is in Shia tradition his favorite wife), who knows what hisssing that would have incited.

It's Muhammad (saw) to you. Please refrain from abbreviating the Seal Of Prophets' name. The Most Sweet One. A great man, a man that was so great he married only one virgin in his life. And one woman older than him, who was his favorite wife. What an accomplishment. What amazing feats of glory. What a sign of humilty. What an example to teach children. I wish I could do what he could. I wish I could marry 10 non virgins all younger than me, at least 9 of them very beautiful. I wish I could marry a woman that is older than me. But how can I? I can not because its an impossible feat.

How he has brought society forward. Compare him to other men, men who were leaders and instructed caravan raids. Men who caused mass graves filled with hundreds of decapitated bodies.
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Reply #27 - February 19, 2010, 04:52 PM

BlackDog STFU with your sarcasm, didn't you know that Islam teaches Universal Brotherhood.

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Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Reply #28 - February 19, 2010, 04:53 PM

>>There is absolutely nothing extraordinary about Muhammad marrying non virgins. It was a very common thing for men in Muhammad's society to marry widows, many of whom were already deflowered. Their previous husbands were killed in battle and the women were left vulnerable. In a society that lives in a harsh, barren, desert landscape nothing goes to waste, especially a beautiful woman. <<

If they had been living in the harsh desert landscape of Rajasthan several centuries later, those women would have been put on the barbeque.

I wasn't suggesting Mohd. did something extraordinary for his own society, let me hasten to add, just something I a) liked and b) "was more progressive than some communities today." I really did not expect that saying women's remarraige is a social good would draw this much discussion, honestly. I think I will quit here.
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Reply #29 - February 19, 2010, 04:54 PM

We are all brothers and we all sisters.

I love my African brothers.

I love my Jewish brothers.

I love my Desi brothers.

Muslims love all people. We are one. We are the same.

This is in the Quran:

We created mankind to be one. So judge and love all of mankind as if they belonged to your family.

Slavery is ugly in the eyes of your Lord. Abolish it at any coast. Free all slaves. Treat all of mankind with love and kindness.

Say not he is my brother for he is a muslim. Say he is a brother for he is same as I created by the same God. Your God does not differ between you O Bani Adam, how can you differ amongst yourselves. Your Lord has created you with Love, will you treat a creature of God with contempt?
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