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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: What do you think is the best option for us?
  • Legalizing all drugs
  • Legalizing only soft drugs like marijuana
  • Keeping the laws as they are right now
  • Making laws tougher with longer sentences for dealers

 Topic: Legalizing Drugs

 (Read 18954 times)
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  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #30 - March 02, 2010, 07:18 PM

    It's not just about how many people die from it. Otherwise I would've banned cars long time ago.

    When people are addicted to heroin and cocaine, they have nearly no control over their lives. To a much milder extent the same is true for people addicted to cannabis. It destroys lives. And yes, so does alcohol. Not for a moment do I think we do not have an alcohol problem in the UK. All I have to do is walk into town at midnight to see it.


    Does it mean it's a good idea to ban alcohol though? Since exactly the same applies.

    Drugs problems aren't banned away. It simply doesn't work - it isn't working.

    Cannabis isn't physically addictive. That's tabloid stuff. No drug is totally harmless, yes, but cannabis is certainly one of the least harmful in existence.

    To be honest, though, it's the idea to which I object. The fact of criminalizing people for what *they* put in their bodies, for something that is no crime, I find to be more pernicious than the existence of any harmful drugs themselves.

    It's a personal decision.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #31 - March 02, 2010, 07:29 PM

    Its gonna sound harsh but i believe in legalising it, and actually not paying for any health problems that might occur (Like in terms of those who time and time again come in complaining, there should be warnings advertised about different drugs), at least in terms of those who are richer as they can afford their own drug counciling. Besides which we could regulate whats in them (no bleach etc) so less risks of "dirty" drugs. Also it could be sourced NOT FROM AFGHANISTAN ETC. so other probs could be sorted out more easily, others include drug gangs etc.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #32 - March 02, 2010, 07:42 PM

    Objections

    1. Hard drugs are more harmful and more addictive. My objection is not only that it can harm the abusers. but abuse children and other people.

    2. Some people lose all inhibitions, some people get incredibly aggressive and lose control and sense when drunk or high. I do not want people behaving like this in society. It's my natural right to feel safe. I can not feel safe when somebody is intruding on private space, or stepping in my face or worse committing violent acts that can lead to somebody's death.

    3. Getting addicted up to the point where you cant function, can't work can't contribute. Being able-bodied you should contribute, sitting on your ass getting high is bullshit.


    Counter-arguments

    1. If you overstep your rights as a parents, your children get taken from you. There should be a way to regulate the access to drugs and punishments if you overstep the regulations.

    2. Disorderly conduct will be heavily fined. Excuses of not knowing what you were doing because you were intoxicated will NOT be accepted at all. If you take these drugs you have a responsibility, and you will be called on it if you fail it.

    3. If you don't wish to contribute that's fine, but means losing state benefits that come from taxes. Its bs anyways because you need money for rent, and committing crimes gets you in jail. Only rich people can be slackers. The poor will eventually end up homeless. Welfare is out there for the poor that have no possibilites to work. Welfare is not there for you to get high on.

    Gut feeling?
    I still don't like hard drugs, and I don't want to see people destroy themselves with PCP, crack and heroin. I don't think all drugs are OK I'm sorry. I think certain drugs should be illegal. I don't think you should jail people for simply taking them, they should receive help and not be fucking punished. On the very least have the drugs regulated by the state.


    I voted legalize weed btw and not hard drugs.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #33 - March 02, 2010, 07:47 PM

    Does it mean it's a good idea to ban alcohol though? Since exactly the same applies.

    Drugs problems aren't banned away. It simply doesn't work - it isn't working.


    Nobody believes that, you know that right?

    Quote
    Cannabis isn't physically addictive. That's tabloid stuff. No drug is totally harmless, yes, but cannabis is certainly one of the least harmful in existence.


    "There's a strong desire to use, which overrides other activities, so friends and hobbies and work are neglected," he says. ""There's difficulty in controlling the amounts you use. There's a degree of tolerance developed so you need higher doses to have the same effect. And then you persist in using despite the fact it's causing you ill health or debt."

    The main thing that separates cannabis from heroin or nicotine is that the physical withdrawal state is not normally as severe."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2004/jun/17/thisweekssciencequestions

    Quote
    To be honest, though, it's the idea to which I object. The fact of criminalizing people for what *they* put in their bodies, for something that is no crime, I find to be more pernicious than the existence of any harmful drugs themselves.

    It's a personal decision.


    I think you meant it's the thought of it. If that's what we're dealing with, then I truly believe that the thought that (if/when I have a child) my 18 year old son/daughter saying "It's my choice and I'm going to do it!" is certainly not going to put an end to my striving for them to stop, even if it involves me snatching the drugs off them and destroying it (which would count as theft, or violating the property of others, in the eyes of some people here I guess). I would never in a million years accept their choice too waste away the rest of their life on hard drugs, even if it is their free choice.

    You see, it's just the thought of saying "Ok son/daughter. I respect your choice. I'll sit here and watch you exercise your freedom" that I am against.

    And, call me old-fashioned if you will. But some coke addict begging for more, having severe withdrawal effects, desiring nothing, no food, no love, no friends, no life... just a little bit more white powder up their nose... if they whisper to me: "I'm free" I'm going to say "No, you're really not". If freedom is anything, it's not that.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #34 - March 02, 2010, 07:51 PM

    lol James objects to people smoking weed but fucking your sister is not a problem  Cheesy

    i can be an asshole sometimes
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #35 - March 02, 2010, 07:53 PM

    Gut feeling?
    I still don't like hard drugs, and I don't want to see people destroy themselves with PCP, crack and heroin. I don't think all drugs are OK I'm sorry. I think certain drugs should be illegal. I don't think you should jail people for simply taking them, they should receive help and not be fucking punished. On the very least have the drugs regulated by the state.


    I voted legalize weed btw and not hard drugs.


    I agree, punishment is absurd for drug takers.

    I think part of the reason why people who believe in legalizing all drugs are so is because they're afraid of the thought of somebody wanting to take hard drugs or wanting to commit suicide as being regarded as a criminal. And rightfully so! But perhaps it should be a "crime" in the sense that these people ought to be stopped, but just that they shouldn't be punished. They should rather be helped. In this view, criminalizing drug taking and suicide isn't something to be afraid of anymore.

    And I voted the same, legalize soft drugs, but I don't believe that cannabis should be made legal overnight. I would say I only believe in decriminalizing cannabis like in Netherlands but I'm not really sure what that means  Cheesy

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #36 - March 02, 2010, 07:55 PM

    Smugglers, drug lords, "Dirty" drugs exist because of the prohibition against said drugs.  They are just trying to satisfy demand.  Overturn the prohibition and areas that are more profitable would start havesting them, not crap hole countries and drug lords.

    For instance.  Lets say Marajuana is legalized.  Texas is a very good place to grow marijuana ( as evidenced by the fields found in State Parks).  Instead of relying on drug cartels to hide the field grow it clandestinely, package it, and then sell it, people could just grow it in their backyards or pick it up at the farmer's market with significant less "waste" going to hiding the fields and the violence necessary to protect it.  Likewise drug testing companies would come into being to guarantee the quality of the drugs.  Right now this is impossible to do so buyers are dependent on the word of the supplier.  

    At least in the Western Hemisphere the entire drug cartel would fall apart if drugs were legalized.  They would become respected business men who wouldn't have to resort to violence to protect themselves.  There is no legitimate difference between two food suppliers and two drug suppliers, yet we almost never hear of violence in the food industry.  

    A good tidbit to listen or read is Defending the Undefendable by Walter Block, the parts about the Drug Pusher and the Drug Addict  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #37 - March 02, 2010, 07:56 PM

    lol James objects to people smoking weed but fucking your sister is not a problem  Cheesy


    Lol. Not quite. My very close friend sent me a text the other day saying "...and weed is fun". Clearly he's tried weed now. I haven't said anything to him and I don't intend to, unless he starts doing it regularly. From how well I know him though, I don't expect him to become a regular cannabis smoker.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #38 - March 02, 2010, 07:58 PM

    Lol. Not quite. My very close friend sent me a text the other day saying "...and weed is fun". Clearly he's tried weed now. I haven't said anything to him and I don't intend to, unless he starts doing it regularly. From how well I know him though, I don't expect him to become a regular cannabis smoker.


    i know my bad, you're a good kid, i should have waited and seen what you were going to write

    it would have been funny though, i almost wish you were against weed so my joke can stand  grin12

    lets get high dude, and then go "dude where is my sister"  Cheesy
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #39 - March 02, 2010, 08:08 PM

    Nobody believes that, you know that right?


    Nobody believes that criminalization works...?

    Quote
    "There's a strong desire to use, which overrides other activities, so friends and hobbies and work are neglected," he says. ""There's difficulty in controlling the amounts you use. There's a degree of tolerance developed so you need higher doses to have the same effect. And then you persist in using despite the fact it's causing you ill health or debt."

    The main thing that separates cannabis from heroin or nicotine is that the physical withdrawal state is not normally as severe.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2004/jun/17/thisweekssciencequestions


    It never is as severe. In fact, I suggest it doesn't exist at all, and is a tabloid myth.

    In any case, how is the fact that some people smoke a lot, and otherwise may have stress problems - as they tend to be such people - any grounds for banning it? And many of these people are those with stressful lives, people with careers etc., if smoking weed helps them, then that's a good thing.

    All these things are a matter of personal responsibility.

    Quote
    "Ok son/daughter. I respect your choice. I'll sit here and watch you exercise your freedom" that I am against.


    That would be a personal matter - not a legal one. When she is 18, she is an adult and can do what she wants, even if you don't like. That's called adulthood. But certainly there are many parents who do respect their children's decision to have fun in that way, not that they encourage them, which is quite harmless.

    Children will always go against their parent's wishes, and do stuff they don't want - fuck basing law on that, TBH, on these kinds of 'moral fancies'.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #40 - March 02, 2010, 08:28 PM

    For instance.  Lets say Marajuana is legalized.  Texas is a very good place to grow marijuana ( as evidenced by the fields found in State Parks).  Instead of relying on drug cartels to hide the field grow it clandestinely, package it, and then sell it, people could just grow it in their backyards or pick it up at the farmer's market with significant less "waste" going to hiding the fields and the violence necessary to protect it.  Likewise drug testing companies would come into being to guarantee the quality of the drugs.  Right now this is impossible to do so buyers are dependent on the word of the supplier.


    I can quite see that happening too. There's even an economic argument for this. More than one.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #41 - March 02, 2010, 08:34 PM

    Nobody believes that criminalization works...?



    No, nobody believes that banning drugs is the solution that's going to stop people taking drugs alltogether.

    Quote

    It never is as severe. In fact, I suggest it doesn't exist at all, and is a tabloid myth.

    In any case, how is the fact that some people smoke a lot, and otherwise may have stress problems - as they tend to be such people - any grounds for banning it? And many of these people are those with stressful lives, people with careers etc., if smoking weed helps them, then that's a good thing.



    Well the effects of cannabis seems to be much easier for an individual to tolerate than cocaine and heroin.

    Quote
    All these things are a matter of personal responsibility.


    That's just it. There are some matters that people ought to be able to take hold of themselves, but there are other matters that people just seem to be too stupid to know what's obviously bad for them. I'm not saying we should treat these people as punishable criminals, just that the state needs to interfere, like a helping friend.

    Quote
    That would be a personal matter - not a legal one. When she is 18, she is an adult and can do what she wants, even if you don't like. That's called adulthood. But certainly there are many parents who do respect their children's decision to have fun in that way, not that they encourage them, which is quite harmless.

    Children will always go against their parent's wishes, and do stuff they don't want - fuck basing law on that, TBH, on moral fancies.


    Ok, joining the army - I would personally dislike, not getting a good job/education - I would personally dislike, walking home from a night club alone at night - I would personally dislike, eating too much junk food - I would personally dislike. Taking heroine/cocaine on a regular basis to the extent that their life is falling apart? I think it would be a bit more than simple personal dislike in that case, don't you think? There is something severely wrong at this point that needs to be addressed...

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #42 - March 02, 2010, 08:34 PM

    It's not just about how many people die from it. Otherwise I would've banned cars long time ago.


    I should probably leave this one out, but I'd have no problem abolishing private transport. Not that that could happen under this economic system  Tongue

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #43 - March 02, 2010, 08:36 PM

    Suicidal people who are a danger to themselves and/or others are forceabily stopped i.e. they are sectioned. Is that wrong?


    For the first, yes, it's wrong. Suicide should not be illegal. If you want to off yourself, the state has no business saying you can't. It's your life, your body and if you choose to prematurely end your life, then it's your choice too.

    It's not just about how many people die from it. Otherwise I would've banned cars long time ago.

    When people are addicted to heroin and cocaine, they have nearly no control over their lives. To a much milder extent the same is true for people addicted to cannabis. It destroys lives. And yes, so does alcohol. Not for a moment do I think we do not have an alcohol problem in the UK. All I have to do is walk into town at midnight to see it.


    Yes, these drugs do destroy lives, and in the meantime the Drug War has arguably destroyed two generations, entire neighborhoods and cities, and the second American Republic. When your country purports to be free, yet is crawling with armed policemen with powers to take away your liberty for literally tens of thousands of possible offenses, and your government incarcerates a higher percentage of its citizens than Russia, China, or North Korea-- then something is seriously wrong and one must question, under these conditions, how free are we, really? The Drug War must be stopped at all costs. It is a fundamental threat to our lives and liberty, and a drain on our economic resources.

    Furthermore social harm is not enough to deprive someone of their fundamental rights, and there are few rights as fundamental as the ability to control your own body.

    fuck you
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #44 - March 02, 2010, 08:38 PM

    I should probably leave this one out, but I'd have no problem abolishing private transport. Not that that could happen under this economic system  Tongue


    You leave my Escalade alone.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #45 - March 02, 2010, 08:45 PM

    I'll give you my Ferrari when you take it from my cold, dead hands!


    Has anybody considered the lessons learned from Netherlands’ experience with Cannabis legalization?
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #46 - March 02, 2010, 08:49 PM

    Damned commies Tongue
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #47 - March 02, 2010, 08:54 PM

    No, nobody believes that banning drugs is the solution that's going to stop people taking drugs alltogether.


    Not taking drugs, but having the need to. People may always take drugs, and it would be harmless if no-one got addicted. But my suspicion is it doesn't help one bit... only one way to finally prove that hypothesis, though....

    Quote
    Well the effects of cannabis seems to be much easier for an individual to tolerate than cocaine and heroin.


    They are so far removed. In that respect, cannabis is more benign than drink. Because alcohol withdrawal can kill someone.

    Quote
    That's just it. There are some matters that people ought to be able to take hold of themselves, but there are other matters that people just seem to be too stupid to know what's obviously bad for them. I'm not saying we should treat these people as punishable criminals, just that the state needs to interfere, like a helping friend.


    If they seek help, certainly, or maybe under certain conditions there are requirements made. But I don't like a paternalistic state, myself. This is a real gripe I have with things as they become operational here. First the neoliberal state has discarded a significant part of the population - and THEN tells it what to do.

    Quote
    Ok, joining the army - I would personally dislike, not getting a good job/education - I would personally dislike, walking home from a night club alone at night - I would personally dislike, eating too much junk food - I would personally dislike. Taking heroine/cocaine on a regular basis to the extent that their life is falling apart? I think it would be a bit more than simple personal dislike in that case, don't you think? There is something severely wrong at this point that needs to be addressed...


    (In general, not just personally: ) Yes, at that point, precisely. Fortunately, that's not the inevitable result of taking any drugs.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #48 - March 02, 2010, 09:18 PM

    I'm not saying we should treat these people as punishable criminals, just that the state needs to interfere, like a helping friend.


    Yeah, except the state isn't your friend. It is an impersonal political institution with its own interests, and with a tendency to expand its own powers at the expense of people's rights and liberties. It is a piss poor surrogate for family, friends, neighbors, co-workers and communities, and the sooner people in your country and mind start understanding that the better.

    The state has no right to violate my right to control my body/life, and to prematurely end my life for whatever reason I choose, so long as it does not violate the rights of others. Maybe an exception should be made for a parent with minor children, or for minor children themselves, but there is no justification for the state violating the rights of an adult with no dependents to control their own life/body. None.

    fuck you
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #49 - March 02, 2010, 09:47 PM

    How acute is the drugs problem in real terms anyway? The reason I am asking is because the dominant mode of politics nowadays tends to be the politics of fear.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #50 - March 02, 2010, 10:04 PM

    I can't answer for sure, but in general my personal belief that a lot of the misery of drugs is actually caused by the prohibition of it and then said misery becomes a causa belli for more prohibition which causes more misery and it comes a snake eating it's own tail

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #51 - March 02, 2010, 10:09 PM

    Legalize all drugs, 50% !?

    No Thanks, fucking crackheads.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #52 - March 02, 2010, 10:10 PM

    In the words of Rick James:

    "Cocaine is a hell of a drug"
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #53 - March 02, 2010, 10:13 PM

    lol.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6Yplww55ao

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #54 - March 02, 2010, 10:16 PM

    Legalize all drugs, 50% !?

    No Thanks, fucking crackheads.

     Cheesy
    I have voted for “legalize all” and I don’t even smoke pot.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #55 - March 02, 2010, 10:17 PM

    I have smoked weed and I love it. No other drugs though  Cry

    I wanna try LSD. Eat shrooms and drink syrup.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #56 - March 02, 2010, 10:19 PM

    Cheesy
    I have voted for “legalize all” and I don’t even smoke pot.


    Me too.  I'm too high strung.  I smoked it once and got pissed because I was thinking too slow Smiley I don't use any drugs except alcohol and I'm for legalizing them all. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #57 - March 02, 2010, 10:26 PM

    Me too.  I'm too high strung.  I smoked it once and got pissed because I was thinking too slow Smiley I don't use any drugs except alcohol and I'm for legalizing them all.  


    Know what you mean. I was for legalizing drugs before I had even tried any, against criminalizing prostitution before I had ever had sex with a prostitute, and I was against gun control before I owned any guns. I've probably been against drug, prostitution and gun prohibition since I was 10 or 12 years old. My political positions on a lot of shit has changed over the years, from moderate left to far left to far right, to hard right, to radical left, to moderate left-- but those three things (among others) and my support of labor unions has been consistent.

    fuck you
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #58 - March 02, 2010, 10:30 PM

    from moderate left to far left to far right, to hard right, to radical left, to moderate left

    No way! Sounds really interesting.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #59 - March 02, 2010, 10:37 PM

    My political positions on a lot of shit has changed over the years, from moderate left to far left to far right, to hard right, to radical left, to moderate left


    You are a confused man. Seek Allah and all shall be well.
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