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 Topic: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?

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  • What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     OP - March 03, 2010, 08:45 PM
    Give me some options for a poll that I want to start off.

    So what do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #1 - March 03, 2010, 09:11 PM
    That we are here at all. It doesn't make sense, in a logical fashion, since it contradicts what we feel about cause and effect. In other words, with or without a deity the universe "shouldn't" exist at all. The apparent fact that it does exist proves that our notions of cause and effect are not reliable in some circumstances, which means that arguments such as "any deity would also need a creator" are not necessarily valid.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #2 - March 03, 2010, 10:40 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 03, 2010, 09:11 PM
    The apparent fact that it does exist proves that our notions of cause and effect are not reliable in some circumstances


    It doesn't disprove cause and effect at all, we just don't know the cause.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #3 - March 03, 2010, 10:54 PM
    That there is something rather than nothing.
    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #4 - March 03, 2010, 10:56 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 03, 2010, 09:11 PM
    That we are here at all. It doesn't make sense, in a logical fashion, since it contradicts what we feel about cause and effect. In other words, with or without a deity the universe "shouldn't" exist at all. The apparent fact that it does exist proves that our notions of cause and effect are not reliable in some circumstances, which means that arguments such as "any deity would also need a creator" are not necessarily valid.

    An eternal universe solves this particular conundrum I think..
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #5 - March 03, 2010, 11:05 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on March 03, 2010, 10:40 PM
    It doesn't disprove cause and effect at all, we just don't know the cause.

    True, to a point. However regardless of the cause it will still be something that "logically" we will feel does not resolve the problem of infinite regression.

    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2010, 10:56 PM
    An eternal universe solves this particular conundrum I think..

    See above. Smiley
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #6 - March 03, 2010, 11:10 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 03, 2010, 11:05 PM
    See above. Smiley

    Nope, an eternal universe does not necessarily require a cause, it just is.
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #7 - March 03, 2010, 11:12 PM
    I am trying to think of another powerful argument against atheism Thinking hard
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #8 - March 03, 2010, 11:14 PM
    An eternal universe is the very epitome of the problem of infinite regression. It leads to the equally valid assertion of an eternal creator deity.

    ETA: I should clarify that. What I mean is that if you are going to assert an eternal universe, which is all you can do since there is no direct evidence for it, then you have to allow others to assert an eternal creator. Both are equally valid as unproven assertions.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #9 - March 04, 2010, 09:41 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2010, 11:12 PM
    I am trying to think of another powerful argument against atheism Thinking hard

    Consciousness? That's a big mystery and one good reason to tend towards deism instead of pure atheism.
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #10 - March 04, 2010, 09:46 AM
    Nah, consciousness doesnt do it for me - I see it as just the composite sum of all our senses+memory.

    For me the best argument against atheism is the potential for life after death along with the rewards of heaven.  But thats not an argument, that is just wishful thinking.


    I guess I'll have to abandon this thread, I simply cant think of a single powerful argument against atheism.
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #11 - March 04, 2010, 10:00 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 04, 2010, 09:46 AM
    Nah, consciousness doesnt do it for me - I see it as just the composite sum of all our senses+memory.

    But that doesn't answer why it's even possible at all that complex life forms have consciousness and self-awareness.
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #12 - March 04, 2010, 10:29 AM
    Religion/supernaturalisms variously: there is more

    Existing (particularly classical) notions of materialism: there is everything

    What if: there is even less than there is, such that a material order couldn't constitute itself. Consciousness... because art is, at it were, built into the material quasi-existence that is disappearing before it could appear. Consciousness, such as ours, trying to enact order.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #13 - March 04, 2010, 11:00 AM
    What do you against atheism?
    from a deistic or theistic view?cause the concept of God from a theistic notion is very different the deistic one.
    as for conciousness; I've read some time about it in the sense of theorie of emergence or something like that.
    That if you link one part to the other part, that you get a whole and that would be conciousness. but I'm not sure, so excuse my possible faulty assertion.
    "Hanifs (Muslims) are stumbling, Christians all astray
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #14 - March 04, 2010, 11:49 AM
    me - nothing

    im - if im anything other than rambling about bollocks here - getting at an atheistic conception of consciousness

    that consciousness is 'whole' - the crux of where im coming is that that is taken for self-equivalence, but this is only posited, insofar that doesn't exist. although neurology would consider the mind an integrated circuit. except that is not the same consciousness which, i am one of those who takes the view, is not reducible to the materiality we, misleadingly, construct.

    not a spiritually satisfying view...
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #15 - March 04, 2010, 12:06 PM
    Quote from: Aziz on March 04, 2010, 10:00 AM
    But that doesn't answer why it's even possible at all that complex life forms have consciousness and self-awareness.

    Why they have consciousness & self-awareness?  Easy, Darwin answers this.  Because it enables them to adapt into their environment better.
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #16 - March 04, 2010, 03:02 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 03, 2010, 11:14 PM
    An eternal universe is the very epitome of the problem of infinite regression. It leads to the equally valid assertion of an eternal creator deity.

    ETA: I should clarify that. What I mean is that if you are going to assert an eternal universe, which is all you can do since there is no direct evidence for it, then you have to allow others to assert an eternal creator. Both are equally valid as unproven assertions.


    Both are not equally valid since there is no doubt about the existence of universe, while there is no evidence about the existence of a God. The universe exists, and hence there IS a possibility that it might be eternal. The same cannot be said about God.

    Do we all agree that we are talking about a creator God here?

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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #17 - March 04, 2010, 03:08 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2010, 11:12 PM
    I am trying to think of another powerful argument against atheism Thinking hard


    LOL. If you could really think of a powerful argument against atheism, you wouldn't have become an atheist. Embracing atheism requires a great courage, not only because it might involve eternal punishment in hell, but mainly because initially it makes you lonely and helpless. There is no psychological crutch left on which you can lean on in the times of adversity. Atheism also requires that you exhaust all your arguments for a God. Atheism requires that no lingering doubt is left in your mind about the possibility of the existence of a God.

    I am assuming that you are an atheist. If you are agnostic, what I said above does not apply to you. But then you should have been able to come up with an argument which might have hinted at the possibility of God.
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #18 - March 04, 2010, 03:24 PM
    Quote from: charlesmartel on March 04, 2010, 03:08 PM
    I am assuming that you are an atheist. If you are agnostic, what I said above does not apply to you. But then you should have been able to come up with an argument which might have hinted at the possibility of God.

    lol I am actually an agnostic - but for simplicities sake I was using the Dawkins definition of medium atheist (which I dont happen to agree with, but most espouse to here)
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #19 - March 04, 2010, 03:32 PM
    If someone managed to answer Russell's Paradox ('list of all lists that do not contain themselves') they would have established very good grounds for arguing for god.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #20 - March 04, 2010, 03:45 PM
    Would hardly 'prove' god, but there would be a very sound logical basis.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #21 - March 04, 2010, 03:45 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 04, 2010, 03:24 PM
    lol I am actually an agnostic - but for simplicities sake I was using the Dawkins definition of medium atheist (which I dont happen to agree with, but most espouse to here)


    Yes, I thought so Smiley.

    Then please tell us what makes you stop at agnosticism.
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #22 - March 04, 2010, 04:29 PM
    I still dont think its fair to say some kind pantheist/personal/abrahmic definitely does not exist
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #23 - March 04, 2010, 04:39 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 04, 2010, 04:29 PM
    I still dont think its fair to say some kind pantheist/personal/abrahmic definitely does not exist


    To me that is not a satisfactory answer. But it is you who have to judge its merit. I am happy either way.
    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #24 - March 04, 2010, 04:42 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 04, 2010, 04:29 PM
    I still dont think its fair to say some kind pantheist/personal/abrahmic definitely does not exist


    Is it fair to say there's no Easter Bunny or Santa Claus?
    fuck you
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #25 - March 04, 2010, 04:56 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on March 04, 2010, 04:42 PM
    Is it fair to say there's no Easter Bunny?

    Duh idiot2 - do you think Easter Eggs come outta thin air?
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  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #26 - March 04, 2010, 04:58 PM
    I pretend to be a pantheist or agnostic mainly for the bitches. I find 90% of women find atheism to be repugnant. So I just pull that pantheist bullshit just to show I'm kinda spiritual. I'm not. Even if souls existed, I probably would not have one.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #27 - March 04, 2010, 05:03 PM
    In all honesty I'm at a stage in my life where no arguement is powerful enough against atheism.  But prior to now it would have been the "we must come from somewhere, because everything comes from somewhere" one.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #28 - March 04, 2010, 05:15 PM
    No there is no valid argument against atheism. As for theists they just fight over ultimate cause and absolute morality without any basis whatsoever.

    God and creationism raise many more questions than atheism and evolutionism eg where did god come from? What was he doing for all eternity? Is eternity possible even for god because infinity is impossible? Where did he get the matter from to create universe? Could nonphysical being affect physical being? Etc etc etc.

    Infinite universe would not make sense either so universe would seem finite and may have come to existence out of nothingness. All things must have beginning because nothing can be eternal. But then nothingness can also be not eternal, can it?  

        
    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Re: What do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?
     Reply #29 - March 04, 2010, 05:24 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 03, 2010, 08:45 PM

    So what do you think is the most powerful argument against atheism?


    There is none.
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
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