Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #30 - March 16, 2010, 04:09 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 16, 2010, 04:03 PM
We're quite different in this respect

Well, if you're ashamed of your ancestors and your heritage then thats your choice.

I think Islam might have had its value and worth during the medieval age. But thats just the historian in me. Its nothing to be proud of right now.

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Oh, I dont agree with this too, I think Islam is worse than Buddhism, Chritianity, Hinduism tbh most religions for that matter..

Theoretically and ethically.. yes I agree. But why does that mean it should warrant more criticism? The problem is not Islam.. the problem is that Muslim take Islam seriously. If Muslims secularised like Christians have, why should we bother makings lists of unethical hadiths or verses? Seems redundant to do.

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #31 - March 16, 2010, 04:12 PM

Quote from: billy on March 16, 2010, 04:07 PM
Well, it was said jokingly, I should have used a more ironic smiley. It just read on the page uncomfortably like the absolutist truth claims of supremacy of the gilded age of Islam past like that. Where does the need to make such attributions come from? Ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt, China, India, they never really have this kind of advocacy of exceptionalism made for them, they are just part of the tides of the common human civilisation.

It's not exceptionalism, I would consider Ancient Greece the greatest civilization to exist up to that point, I would consider the same for the Egyptian civilization too.

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #32 - March 16, 2010, 04:12 PM

Quote from: Iblis on March 16, 2010, 04:01 PM
I believe Islam warrants more criticism at this point in time. Thats because we live in an age where Muslims and their bullshit are a major issue. If things improve and problem subside and muslim reform their attitudes then why should I bother mentioning rock hadiths or that the prophet molested a 9 year old girl? It's like me going to a bahai and mocking their religion.. why? They don't bother any one us or kill any human beings.. so why should I 'confront' their religion even it it has values I disagree with?

So should Islam be confronted? Yes, obviously.. but that's because the existing social and political situation of our age demands us to do so in the defense of free speech and freedom of belief and the integrity of secular society. But confronting Islam for the sake of confronting Islam? Fuck that.

First of all, regarding those you singled out as Islamophobic because of their pursuit of essentialising Muslims. This isn't anything called Islamophobia. No – that is a sign of the failure of the intellect of those people to understand the difference between individuals and collective, between ideology and free will, and between the causative claims of Islam and the reality of complex lives, consciences, and morality. Taking anything at face value, especially when it comes to this realm, is to be taken in by a shallow value.

Now, the rest of what you say, you have swung around to what I believe, that Islam at this moment in time, and certainly in our particular context, warrants more criticism than other belief systems. And that there is nothing 'phobic' about that.

So I can't work out what the problem was with what was said in the first place. Also, I find this problematic:

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confronting Islam for the sake of confronting Islam? Fuck that.

Because so much of what confronts Islam can be pushed by those who want to do so into that category. If someone wants to confront precepts of Islam for the sake of it, why shouldn't they?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #33 - March 16, 2010, 04:15 PM

Quote from: Iblis on March 16, 2010, 04:12 PM
It's not exceptionalism, I would consider Ancient Greece the greatest civilization to exist up to that point, I would consider the same for the Egyptian civilization too.

OK, but it is exceptionalism , because rather than viewing it in the context of the many civiliastional streams that aggregated, it was 'the greatest ever at that time' - and I didn't mean what you consider it to be, its how this kind of exceptionalism gets bandied around whenever Islamic civilisation is discussed.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #34 - March 16, 2010, 04:17 PM

Quote from: Iblis on March 16, 2010, 04:09 PM
Well, if you're ashamed of your ancestors and your heritage then thats your choice.

I didnt say I was ashamed. I was just surprised that you are so proud of them I am actually ambivalent, they were just products of the society they were brought up in, just like everybody else.
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Theoretically and ethically.. yes I agree.

On which count do you disagree then?
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But why does that mean it should warrant more criticism?

because its more dangerous than other religions when it is implanted in an unassuming brain
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The problem is not Islam.. the problem is that Muslim take Islam seriously.

I thought they were supposed too

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #35 - March 16, 2010, 04:20 PM

Well people can do what they please. I'm just speaking from my personal perspective here. To me it's ridiculous to confront a religion for the sake of just confronting a religion. It seems like a waste of time. Does it make sense for some dude in mongolia to confront Islam? Sure he can if he wants.. but islamic values don't really negatively affect his society does it? Perhaps I'm obsessed with real world causes to be 'against' something.. I'm against Islam because of its negative influence on political, social life, human rights, development and science. I'm not against Islam because of some naughty verses or hadiths.

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #36 - March 16, 2010, 04:23 PM

How do you know what their motives for confronting it are? You are being quite tricky here, this is a licence to afford anyone who wants to shut down criticism of Islam by saying they are just doing it for the sake of it.

Also its very unfair. Criticising Islam, especially openly, is not pleasent. The backlash is not something that people generally take on without good reason.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #37 - March 16, 2010, 04:24 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 16, 2010, 04:17 PM
I didnt say I was ashamed. I was just surprised that you are so proud of them I am actually ambivalent, they were just products of the society they were brought up in, just like everybody else.

Well you can say that about anything. lol

I just consider medieval muslim civilization as a special and interesting time where many great achievements were made and many great nations and leaders were born. Its more of a subjective historical admiration I suppose. Not really important.

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I thought they were supposed too

So people are "supposed" to do things now?

People do what they like. Lots of "muslims" in turkey and bosnia and bangladesh and indonesia don't take their religion seriously. Its called being an ethnic or cultural muslim.

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #38 - March 16, 2010, 04:27 PM

Quote from: billy on March 16, 2010, 04:23 PM
How do you know what their motives for confronting it are? You are being quite tricky here, this is a licence to afford anyone who wants to shut down criticism of Islam by saying they are just doing it for the sake of it.

Also its very unfair. Criticising Islam, especially openly, is not pleasent. The backlash is not something that people generally take on without good reason.

I think your mixing things up. I'm stating how I feel and expaining the reasons I believe what I believe. I'm not asking people to do so-and-so. If someone wants to criticise Islam for the sake of criticising Islam he's free to do so. I just think it's silly. I'd rather be for things. I'm for human rights and intellectual freedom. And if something hurts those things I'm against that. Whether it be communism, fascism or Islamism.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #39 - March 16, 2010, 04:37 PM

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I think your mixing things up. I'm stating how I feel and expaining the reasons I believe what I believe. I'm not asking people to do so-and-so. If someone wants to criticise Islam for the sake of criticising Islam he's free to do so. I just think it's silly.

I see. Well, in the context of delimiting thought and speech on aspects of Islam a whole armoury accrues. You'll agree that questioning motive has always been a strong arrow in the quil of Muslims who don't like it when something off-colour is said about Islam - I'm sure you get what I mean.

I'm glad you fundamentally agree with us though.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #40 - March 16, 2010, 04:38 PM

Well Muslims are trying to repress free speech. Thats a different story altogether. I don't think there is anything wrong with calling motives into question - it's another matter to say a magazine should be shut down or a person should be barred from the country because of said motives. We do it all the time. It makes a big difference to me when a person like Christopher Hitchens derides Islam vs a guy like Pat Robertson. I think Pat Robertson is Islamophobic while Christopher Hitchens is not. Pat Robertson's problem is not that Islam disagrees with some fundamental values of his.. his problem is that Islam is that it is Islam.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #41 - March 16, 2010, 04:41 PM

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I don't think there is anything wrong with calling motives into question - it's another matter to say a magazine should be shut down or a person should be barred from the country because of said motives.

That is naive. Muslims have done it time and again to critics of Islam. I hope you'll accept this possibility. Its called shooting the messenger, attacking their credibility and 'motive' rather than addressing what they say.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #42 - March 16, 2010, 04:47 PM

Look, I'm allowed to say "that dude is saying so and so because he's a racist".. that's me calling his motives into question. Like I said, we do this all the time in politics. I'm not saying its right or wrong. Its just a reality of how heated discourse can get sometimes. Political groups will always use this tactic and they always have. Zionists regularly use "anti-semitic" motives to destroy any critic of Israel too. In many ways Muslims are simply mimicing that tactic. We can challenge them and stress free speech - regardless of motivation.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #43 - March 16, 2010, 04:53 PM

Yes, you are 'allowed' to do what you want, allowance is not the issue. The truth is, motive questioning is and has been a bullet that has been used against critics of Islam. You will agree at least, that this is an issue, and that it can be a slippery slope? Lets put to one side your own distaste of those who criticise Islam for the sake of it. You have agreed that placing more emphasis on criticising Islam than other religions is not a manifestation of a phobia. You also believe questioning motive is not nesseccarily a bad thing. Won't you also agree it can actually be a bad thing, and that we should tread carefully when it comes to this?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #44 - March 16, 2010, 04:58 PM

Look, I'm debating with you as fellow liberal-minded secularist here. Of course I'm for a robust defense of *ALL* critics of Islam. I fully realise this is a nefarious tactic used by Islamists and their minions. My tune would obviously be a lot different if a muslim popped in here and started making the 'motive' based argument to silence critics of Islam. I might not like the motives of a guy like Geert Wilders or Pat Robertson when they bash Islam, but I very much value their *unconditional* right to rip the religion to shreds ANYWHERE they please.

And I'm against hate speech laws too. So I support even peoples right to bash muslims as people.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #45 - March 16, 2010, 05:00 PM

Excellent!

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #46 - March 16, 2010, 05:13 PM

Quote from: Iblis on March 16, 2010, 04:24 PM
Well you can say that about anything. lol

Yes, you can say that about human progress from the beginning - that does not make any accomplishment in our history something to be more proud of than the rest. They were all interdependent and part of our species general desire to improve our lot.

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I just consider medieval muslim civilization as a special and interesting time where many great achievements were made and many great nations and leaders were born. Its more of a subjective historical admiration I suppose. Not really important.

is it special because you could relate to it in your muslim days?
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So people are "supposed" to do things now?

Yes, Islam expects you to take it seriously.
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People do what they like. Lots of "muslims" in turkey and bosnia and bangladesh and indonesia don't take their religion seriously. Its called being an ethnic or cultural muslim.

we were talking in respect to Islamophobia i.e. the ideology, not muslimaphobia. If Muslims dont follow their religion then thats a different matter.

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #47 - March 16, 2010, 05:18 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 16, 2010, 05:13 PM
Yes, Islam expects you to take it seriously.

ROFL

Islam doesn't expect anything because Islam is not a person. We need to stop personifying dead dudes and texts. The culprit is how muslims treat these dead dudes and texts. By themselves they are no more harmful than any other piece of babbling apocalyptic writing strewn about the ruins of the middle east.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #48 - March 16, 2010, 05:23 PM

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Islam doesn't expect anything because Islam is not a person. We need to stop personifying dead dudes and texts. The culprit is how muslims treat these dead dudes and texts. By themselves they are no more harmful than any other piece of babbling apocalyptic writing strewn about the ruins in the middle east.

I don't think its wrong to say that 'Islam' has a set of precepts and assertions in its practise collectively accepted by proponents and practitioners of Islam, that has at its base that the injunctions of Islam are to be taken seriously, I'm not sure what was wrong with what Iblis said.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #49 - March 16, 2010, 05:29 PM

Quote from: Iblis on March 16, 2010, 05:18 PM
ROFL

Islam doesn't expect anything because Islam is not a person. We need to stop personifying dead dudes and texts. The culprit is how muslims treat these dead dudes and texts.

I know Islam is not a person, but you can see what I am saying right?

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By themselves they are no more harmful than any other piece of babbling apocalyptic writing strewn about the ruins in the middle east.

Agreed, but the difference is that 1.5 billion people are raised to believe these texts are sent from Allah. That is Islam, and as a believer of this script you are supposed to take it seriously. It does not present itself as a comic script, but as an instruction manual for life.

Now there are many instruction manuals for life, but what I am arguing here is that this one is particularly potent.

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #50 - March 16, 2010, 05:30 PM

lol

But we're getting into the debate of "it is so because it says so"... the Quran can say whatever it likes but you still need to take it seriously first - even before reading it - for you to even consider its commandments. And it is people that create an aura of seriousness around it. If some dude with no knowledge of Islam or any religion, picked up a Quran and it and read Allah demanding to be taken seriously he would probably have a laugh and proceed to wipe his ass with the pages (he was probably looking for toilet paper anyways).

When we were kids we were taught by humans (parents, teachers) to take the Quran and Islamic rules seriously. People place emphasis on these books first, the books themselves are powerless.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #51 - March 16, 2010, 05:33 PM

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When we were kids we were taught by humans (parents, teachers) to take the Quran and Islamic rules seriously. People place emphasis on these books first, the books themselves are powerless.

You're speaking as a dissenter from Islam who has to a greater or lesser extent mentally freed yourself from Islam's injunctions. To the people who enforce the ferocity of Islamic seriousness, the texts are not powerless. Family, friends and society have raised them to fear the power of the Quran and all that is associated with it. It is collectively a source of such power that they can be intellectually, socially, spiritually and emotionally paralysed by it.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #52 - March 16, 2010, 05:56 PM

Quote from: billy on March 16, 2010, 05:33 PM
You're speaking as a dissenter from Islam who has to a greater or lesser extent mentally freed yourself from Islam's injunctions. To the people who enforce the ferocity of Islamic seriousness, the texts are not powerless. Family, friends and society have raised them to fear the power of the Quran and all that is associated with it. It is collectively a source of such power that they can be intellectually, socially, spiritually and emotionally paralysed by it.

yep, like Billy said.

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #53 - March 16, 2010, 06:29 PM

Quote from: Iblis
Muslim can become secularists, human rights believers,

And having done that why would they want to continue to associate themselves at any level with a belief system that absolutely rejects these things? Why would they, furthermore, wish to imbue their offspring with any hint of a "Muslim" identity?

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #54 - March 16, 2010, 06:30 PM

Quote from: DH on March 16, 2010, 06:29 PM
And having done that why would they want to continue to associate themselves at any level with a belief system that absolutely rejects these things? Why would they, furthermore, wish to imbue their offspring with any hint of a "Muslim" identity?

Because they aren't some dipshit white supremacist bigot who wants to kick all Muslims out of the west perhaps?

But seriously, because they might want to remain cultural and ethnic muslims because thats what their heritage is. No different than why many Irish or Italians remain catholics or secular Jews still call themselves jews. People hold contradictory beliefs all the time, why should Muslims be any different?

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #55 - March 16, 2010, 06:45 PM

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some dipshit white supremacist bigot

it is VERY EASY, it takes only few minutes or at best an hour to educate dipshits, white supremacists, and bigots dear Iblis., In fact these dipshits, white supremacists, and bigots are the good candidates in the modern times turning in to Muhammad's Islam.

But that is not possible with REAL PIOUS Muhammad following Muslims., You got to run around the Quran, Hadith, Sunnah and meaning of words in Arabic language.. etc..etc..

So it is running in circles .. lol.

So where is the Golden Period of Islam??

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #56 - March 16, 2010, 06:52 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on March 16, 2010, 06:45 PM
So where is the Golden Period of Islam??

dear. . yeezee vee !

golden... like pee?

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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #57 - March 16, 2010, 07:04 PM
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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #58 - March 16, 2010, 07:12 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on March 16, 2010, 06:45 PM
So where is the Golden Period of Islam??

It probably would be better if it did happen because then Islam wouldn't do the Salat and have to do other things.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Islamophobia - what are your thoughts?
Reply #59 - March 16, 2010, 11:35 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on March 16, 2010, 06:45 PM
So where is the Golden Period of Islam??

It was before 600 A.D

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