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Theme Changer

 Topic: Come on now!

 (Read 22150 times)
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  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #30 - March 19, 2010, 05:24 PM

    Quote
    Like I said, believing that will require more faith than believing there was some guiding force behind evolution.

    I just cannot swallow that a pattern like the eye can emerge through random mutations + natural selection.


    Like I said - argument from incredulity, which = your problem.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #31 - March 19, 2010, 05:28 PM

    Obviously? Give me a break. I want a quote of him stating clearly - or any reputable scientist for that matter - that at some point in evolution outside intelligence or mysterious 'force' contributed to certain traits.

    That is what theistic evolution is. If Ken believes in theistic evolution, obviously he believes that god guided evolution in one way or another.

    Quote
    Like I said - argument from incredulity, which = your problem.

    If that makes you feel better. Personally I've been reading a lot about evolution and I feel that I understand the mechanisms very well.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #32 - March 19, 2010, 05:30 PM

    That is what theistic evolution is. If Ken believes in theistic evolution, obviously he believes that god guided evolution in one way or another.


    No, theistic evolution can be whatever that person means it to be.

    You still haven't provided actual evidence of your beliefs. I'd like to see some real credible scientists speak on how some magic was responsible for funky butterfly patterns.

    So far you only have your own stupidity to back up your religious beliefs. Go back to Islam.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #33 - March 19, 2010, 05:33 PM

    That is what theistic evolution is. If Ken believes in theistic evolution, obviously he believes that god guided evolution in one way or another.


    How is this distinguished in practical terms from normal evolution?

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #34 - March 19, 2010, 05:40 PM

    No, theistic evolution can be whatever that person means it to be.

    You still haven't provided actual evidence of your beliefs. I'd like to see some real credible scientists speak on how some magic was responsible for funky butterfly patterns.

    So far you only have your own stupidity to back up your religious beliefs. Go back to Islam.

    Go and do your research yourself, retard. And FYI I've never claimed anywhere that some magic is involved, I said it could be aliens, god, or some unseen natural forces. You're hallucinating things I haven't said, and you call me stupid?
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #35 - March 19, 2010, 05:44 PM

     grin12

    Nah, I think I'll let your creationist ass do the research for me. Now go find real credible scientists that posit a god or other intelligent force for any aspect/product of evolution. Anyone who believe there is anything aside from immediate natural explainations of natural selection and random mutations for any trait in existence. Give me one.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #36 - March 19, 2010, 05:51 PM

    lol notice how he changed his title from "agnostic atheist" to "agnostic". Good boy.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #37 - March 19, 2010, 05:54 PM

    grin12

    Nah, I think I'll let your creationist ass do the research for me. Now go find real credible scientists that posit a god or other intelligent force for any aspect/product of evolution. Anyone who believe there is anything aside from immediate natural explainations of natural selection and random mutations for any trait in existence. Give me one.

    Here's one.  The highly esteemed and revered, Professor Liberated.

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #38 - March 19, 2010, 05:57 PM

    http://www.discovery.org/

    ^Liberated's buddies

    Essentially they make not that different of an argument than Lib. They also claim there are some aspects of natural life that are too complex and amazing to be purely a product of natural selection and/or random mutations.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #39 - March 19, 2010, 06:02 PM

    How can random mutations over no many how many generations create a pattern as precise as the eye?

    Give me a break and use your rational side for a bit...

    Random patterns of colors all over the butterfly are understandable, but its simply inconceivable for a pattern like the eye to form via random mutations and natural selection. You mean to tell me that a mutation caused a quarter of an eye to be formed, and further mutations caused another quarter, and then another until the eye was formed as it looks now?

    *sigh*.


    Do you really know that little about evolution?

    What use is half an eye?  Ask a tape worm, they have half an eye!

    There are creatures today with
    1: Eyes that are merely light sensitive skin able to sense light/dark.
    2: As above but can sense direction of the darkness.
    3: As above but with a pin-hole producing a blurred image.
    4: A full eye.


    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #40 - March 19, 2010, 06:03 PM

    http://www.discovery.org/

    ^Liberated's buddies

    Essentially they make not that different of an argument than Lib. They also claim there are some aspects of natural life that are too complex and amazing to be purely a product of natural selection and/or random mutations.


    And yet EVERY claim of intelligent design has been disproven over the years.  It doesn't matter what the people at discovery.org claim, what matters is that the scientific community think they are a joke because their claims do not stand up to any form of scrutiny.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #41 - March 19, 2010, 06:46 PM

    Science is by definition about the natural world so they can't put in stuff about guided evolution in Science.

    Ditto.
    Which begs the question, why are you still discussing this?

    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #42 - March 19, 2010, 07:22 PM

    Liberated, its not so hard to imagine. You want to see an eye... but is it really so close to an eye? Its mainly a black round dot with yellow around it.

    Look at all the other butterfly species, they have thousends if not millions of variations of patterns. Some have many dots, some have big dots, some have brown or green colors, some have red and yellow. They all have patterns...

    So, now, over millions of years, its not so complicated to imagine, that the most succesful in a certain enviroment are those with the best way to repell predators.

    Yes, it is amazing how detailed they look now, but taking the millions of years into account it took to get there, its not that unlikely.


    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
    "Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
    "there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #43 - March 19, 2010, 10:05 PM

    Do you really know that little about evolution?

    What use is half an eye?  Ask a tape worm, they have half an eye!

    There are creatures today with
    1: Eyes that are merely light sensitive skin able to sense light/dark.
    2: As above but can sense direction of the darkness.
    3: As above but with a pin-hole producing a blurred image.
    4: A full eye.



    I was talking about the pattern of half an eye, not an actual half eye.
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #44 - March 19, 2010, 10:35 PM

    Your whole argument was specious. You obviously have no understanding of the mechanism.

    The eye pattern would not be produced in fully formed quadrants one at a time. That is just idiotic. What would have happened is that a rough dot would look something like an eye to a passing predator who may have been distracted by several things, and may not have been operating in perfect lighting, and may also not have had what we would regard as perfect eyesight anyway.

    This could result is said predator choosing a different target that "wasn't already looking at them". This is turn results in the potential prey surviving and passing on its genes to the next generation.

    The process continues.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #45 - March 19, 2010, 10:39 PM

    Is ID compatible with deism?

    fuck you
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #46 - March 19, 2010, 10:44 PM

    Liberated - Os post reminds of the pattern that had evolved that humans couldnt see, but was detectable by a plants pollinator in an infra-red/ultraviolet pattern that only its pollinator could understand.

    I cant remember what it was or where I saw it, but if it would be of interest to you, I could look it up or someone could remind me?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #47 - March 19, 2010, 10:48 PM

    That's quite common, Islame. For instance bees have their vision shifted up the spectrum compared to us. What we see as red would be to them like the wavelengths we call infrared. On the other hand, what we call ultraviolet is to them just more shades of visible purple (although not purple as such as I think their vision is monochromatic). So there are a lot of plants that have patterns that only show under ultraviolet light.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #48 - March 19, 2010, 10:51 PM

    Liberated - Os post reminds of the pattern that had evolved that humans couldnt see, but was detectable by a plants pollinator in an infra-red/ultraviolet pattern that only its pollinator could understand.

    I cant remember what it was or where I saw it, but if it would be of interest to you, I could look it up or someone could remind me?


    Go and do your research yourself, retard.

    fuck you
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #49 - March 19, 2010, 10:52 PM

    That's quite common, Islame. For instance bees have their vision shifted up the spectrum compared to us. What we see as red would be to them like the wavelengths we call infrared. On the other hand, what we call ultraviolet is to them just more shades of visible purple (although not purple as such as I think their vision is monochromatic). So there are a lot of plants that have patterns that only show under ultraviolet light.


    That's just stupid. No way can bees see more shades of purple than me.

    fuck you
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #50 - March 19, 2010, 10:53 PM

    Go and do your research yourself, retard.


    Grin

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #51 - March 19, 2010, 10:54 PM

    Is ID compatible with deism?


    y n0t?

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #52 - March 19, 2010, 10:55 PM

    That's just stupid. No way can bees see more shades of purple than me.

    They think Hendrix is God, man.  cool2

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #53 - March 19, 2010, 10:58 PM

    That's quite common, Islame. For instance bees have their vision shifted up the spectrum compared to us. What we see as red would be to them like the wavelengths we call infrared. On the other hand, what we call ultraviolet is to them just more shades of visible purple (although not purple as such as I think their vision is monochromatic). So there are a lot of plants that have patterns that only show under ultraviolet light.

    Thanks Os, think it might have been this that I once saw on an Attenborough documentary.  Anyhow Liberated, does this show that these smiley patterns may not have just been put there like you put it, a sign from a creator.  

    Sometimes completely out of view from us, just so it can gain advantage with whats important to it from an evolutionary perpective i.e  Food or Sex.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #54 - March 19, 2010, 11:02 PM

    What really gets me is that of all the things that could convince someone there has to be an intelligent creator-- DNA and RNA coding, the complexity of the human brain, the heart and circulatory system-- for liberated some pattern on a butterfly's wings is the smoking gun.

    fuck you
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #55 - March 19, 2010, 11:03 PM

    I love food and sex. Just sayin'.  parrot

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #56 - March 19, 2010, 11:08 PM

    Go and do your research yourself, retard.

     Cheesy That was me who wrote that post, not Liberated.  Steady on those beers Q.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #57 - March 19, 2010, 11:34 PM

    Liberated. I think you have a really big misunderstanding. You are talking about not understanding how random mutations and natural selections can cause those eye pictures on that butterfly.

    How can random mutations over no many how many generations create a pattern as precise as the eye?

    Give me a break and use your rational side for a bit...

    Random patterns of colors all over the butterfly are understandable, but its simply inconceivable for a pattern like the eye to form via random mutations and natural selection. You mean to tell me that a mutation caused a quarter of an eye to be formed, and further mutations caused another quarter, and then another until the eye was formed as it looks now?

    *sigh*.


    By saying "via random mutations and natural selection" you seem to mean "via random mutations" because I really don't see any natural selection in your post. Having a picture of a quarter of an eye probably gives no benefit for the butterfly so new mutations would just break that image. How that would really work is that some mutation/mutations would cause a black dot or something similar that the predator might confuse to a big eye(or something else) that would cause it to hesitate and give butterfly enough time to flee. Even if the chance of surviving was only slightly higher then it would still cause benefit for butterflies that have it in comparison to the butterflies that don't have it causing that mutation to spread. And all new mutations that would increase the chance of confusing predators(by making the picture look more like an eye) would spread by same principle and the result would be a picture that looks very similar to an eye.

    The most probable situation for this I can conjure up with my brains right now is this:
    Butterfly whose best chance to pass its genes on is to have nice symmetric pictures that would seem interesting to opposite sex.
    Mutation/mutations that causes slightly eye-like dots(assuming that same genes determine the pictures of both wings(that's probably the case in that picture of yours)) that still don't disturb females much.
    The butterfly having higher chance to avoid predators making the mutation more common.
    New mutations... Beneficial ones(that make the picture more eye-like) passing on, harmful ones(that make the picture less eye-like) dying out and neutrals(no effect) remaining or disappearing randomly.
    New mutations and same thing again...
    New mutations and same thing again...
    New mutations and same thing again...
    New mutations and same thing again...
    New mutations and same thing again...
    New mutations and same thing again...
    ...
    And finally the situation is what it is today(note that this is only one possible way).
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #58 - March 20, 2010, 03:09 AM

    Plz watch this video once you finished pick the next ones on the same topic.

    http://www.atheistadam.com/29012/scientists-presents-proof-of-intelligent-design-charles-darwin-origin-of-species-evolution-disproved-refuted-by-biologists-and-scientists-from-cambridge-chicago-munich-universities-creatio/
  • Re: Come on now!
     Reply #59 - March 20, 2010, 03:27 AM

    I just can't comprehend how we evolved from monkeys. Because at some point, two human must have been created by mutation and then they procreated and their kids procreated and so on. So what are the chances that two genetically-similar humans came into existence at the same time all by random mutation? not one but two and not a 100 years apart but at most within 30 years time between each other.
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