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Theme Changer

 Topic: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?

 (Read 29275 times)
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  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #90 - July 21, 2010, 01:42 PM

    This week, French lawmakers are expected to vote on a proposed law that would criminalize the burqa, bringing to a head more than a year of heated debate over the conservative Islamic veil in contemporary France. Although the full head and body covering is worn by fewer than 2,000 of the country's 3.5 million Muslims, the movement to ban it has touched off a volatile discussion about issues of immigration, integration and the rights of women. Nonetheless, a recent poll showed that eight in 10 people in France support slapping a ban on the veil.

    On this side of the Atlantic, however, conversations about European burqa bans have fractured more predictably along political lines. You would be hard pressed to find an American feminist clamoring to see the burqa outlawed, and that perspective has certainly been absent from Broadsheet -- until now. Ahead of parliament's vote on Tuesday, we went to Mona Eltahawy, an Egyptian-born journalist who calls herself "a liberal, a Muslim and a feminist," to better understand the argument for a ban.

    Why do you support a ban on the burqa in France?

    I support banning the burqa because I believe it equates piety with the disappearance of women. The closer you are to God, the less I see of you -- and I find that idea extremely dangerous. It comes from an ideology that basically wants to hide women away. What really strikes me is that a lot of people say that they support a woman's right to choose to wear a burqa because it's her natural right. But I often tell them that what they're doing is supporting an ideology that does not believe in a woman's right to do anything. We're talking about women who cannot travel alone, cannot drive, cannot even go into a hospital without a man with them. And yet there is basically one right that we are fighting for these women to have, and that is the right to cover their faces. To tell you the truth, I'm really outraged that people get into these huge fights and say that as a feminist you must support a women's right to do this, because it's basically the only kind of "right" that this ideology wants to give women. Otherwise they get nothing.

    It seems that if you tried to ban something like the burqa in the United States, you'd immediately have people screaming that it was a huge violation of personal freedom. What makes the European context different?

    To be really crude about it, in the United States, if you do anything and say that it's because it's my religious belief, there is some kind of hallowed ground that you cannot touch, because everybody must be able to do what they want in religion. And to make an equally crude generalization of what happens in Europe, they spent some 500 years fighting over religion and trying to get rid of the church in their lives, so the last thing they want is to justify anything in terms of religion. So it's the opposite obsession almost -- to keep religion out of everything.

    But what really disturbs me about the European context is that the ban is driven almost solely by xenophobic right wingers who I know very well don't give a toss about women's rights. What they're doing is they're hijacking an issue that they know is very emotive and very easy to sell to Europeans who are scared about immigration, Europeans who are scared about the economy, Europeans who don't understand people who look and sound different than them. They've taken advantage of this and done it very well. I'm very disappointed with the left wing and liberals in Europe for not speaking up and saying, the burqa ban has everything to do with women's rights. We are fighting against an ideology that does not believe in women's rights, and we will not allow the right wing to hijack this issue for their own purposes.

    It seems like another group we rarely hear from in this debate is the women who actually wear the burqa.

    These women will tell you that they see this as the true Islam. And my response to that would be, who told you that's how our religion wants you to look? Because if you look around, the majority of Muslims in the world do not look like this. I have met Muslim women who have a very elaborate explanation for why they wear the burqa -- they say that women are candy or diamond rings or precious stones who have to be hidden away in order to appreciate their worth. And I'm appalled! We should talk about this because if we're really going to discuss this as feminists, is that something a feminist should be defending? That a woman is a piece of candy?

    Do you think that banning the burqa will actually do anything, practically speaking, to help Muslim women from very conservative communities?

    What I hope it will do is that it will create a situation where a woman can say to a man, look, you know that I have to go out and work so that we can continue to live here, and I can't go out with my face covered, even though you want me to, because that's what the law says. I hope the law gives women this kind of out. I have no idea if that's actually going to happen or not.


    http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/2010/07/12/yes_to_the_burqa_ban/index.html

    So this issue concerns both the right and the left in their own ways!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #91 - November 02, 2010, 01:14 AM

    fuck that shit, niqab didn't protect me. i wasn't really allowed to wear the niqab as my fam are not really practicing.

    so i  wore it once or twice when i was alone. both times wearing the niqab i had bad experiences.

    one guy followed me, whistled at me all the way home.

    i guess eyes are an attraction in it self.

    Kuffar Bastard
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #92 - November 02, 2010, 02:51 AM

    Quote
    t seems that if you tried to ban something like the burqa in the United States, you'd immediately have people screaming that it was a huge violation of personal freedom. What makes the European context different?

    To be really crude about it, in the United States, if you do anything and say that it's because it's my religious belief, there is some kind of hallowed ground that you cannot touch, because everybody must be able to do what they want in religion. And to make an equally crude generalization of what happens in Europe, they spent some 500 years fighting over religion and trying to get rid of the church in their lives, so the last thing they want is to justify anything in terms of religion. So it's the opposite obsession almost -- to keep religion out of everything.


    This isn't true at all, at least about the US.  Religious personal belief has been tested by the law several hundred times and personal religious belief always comes out the loser when it interferes with other people.  The US religious law says that a company doesn't have to honor your religious belief if it creates a "significant burden" on the business, and that bar is set pretty low.  It is less about sanctification of religious belief and more about sanctifying individual rights, even if that means people believe batshit crazy things. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #93 - November 02, 2010, 11:52 AM

    This isn't true at all, at least about the US.  Religious personal belief has been tested by the law several hundred times and personal religious belief always comes out the loser

    same thing applied when the Federal Law was amended to ban creationism in public schools

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #94 - November 02, 2010, 02:41 PM

    although to be honest niqab kind of serves the purpose mohammed set it for , when seeing a niqabi girl i get repulsed by her , i mean it's not her fault it's just the attire is so ugly and unappealing

    also nobody hits on niqabi girls , they are ignored and i'm sure that's what mohammed wants for women , to stick on the background so he can protect his "honor" and "ego"
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #95 - November 02, 2010, 03:02 PM

    Clothes don't oppress people. People oppress people.

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #96 - November 02, 2010, 03:06 PM

    In the niqabs case it does indirectly, by masking an individuals identity and making them anonymous & irrelevent as a distinct individual in society

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #97 - November 02, 2010, 03:27 PM

    Not if she's happy being anonymous and she's not forced into it, but either way, she's still relevant. Something we have to remember - there's a human being under the burqa.

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #98 - November 02, 2010, 03:42 PM

    Anyway, what burqa stands for is oppressive, don't get me wrong. But it's still a man-made rule to segregate women that way. And cloth is cloth.

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #99 - November 02, 2010, 04:00 PM

    they have to try and help themselves since nobody can ban burqa everywhere
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #100 - December 06, 2010, 05:04 PM

    When i was a muslim there was a time in my life that i wore the niqab

    honestly i did it not for myself but because my friends and family wore it and i wanted to "fit in"

    also i was attending an islamic school and majority of the women wore it then so i did too

    its funny tho cuz although i wore it i hated it...and the whole time i wore it i wouldnt go out much or take the bus(for u brits the tube)

    and im one of those ppl who loves to be out and about...watch movies, go out to dinner and i couldnt do any of that

    not to mention the constant stares i kept getting


    im glad i dont have to put up with that crap anymore!

    井の中の蛙大海を知らず。
    (I no naka no kawazu taikai wo shirazu)
    A frog in a well does not know the great sea.
  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #101 - December 06, 2010, 05:16 PM

    Quote
    its funny tho cuz althoug. h i wore it i hated it...and the whole time i wore it i wouldnt go out much or take the bus(for u brits the tube)



    A bus is a bus in Britain too. The tube is the subway Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #102 - December 06, 2010, 05:20 PM

    my bad billy thats wat i meant lol...when i said bus i meant the subway/trains also Afro

    井の中の蛙大海を知らず。
    (I no naka no kawazu taikai wo shirazu)
    A frog in a well does not know the great sea.
  • Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #103 - August 03, 2014, 04:28 PM

    Bump.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #104 - August 03, 2014, 04:39 PM

    Ah interesting thread. I'll read it when I get home and maybe cobtribute. I was a niqabi for more than 7 years Smiley

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Your experiences of the niqab/burka?
     Reply #105 - August 03, 2014, 07:06 PM

    So I read the whole thread, and I don't know if I can add anything new to it Smiley I could just give you all my personal experience being a niqabi living in the West (and visiting a Muslim country where niqab is the norm). Sorry in advance for it being incoherent or whatever, but I'm just gonna go ahead and type down whatever comes to mind. 

    When I started thinking about wearing the niqab, I was very young. It was even before I started wearing the hijab. Being a bit of a hard core Salafi from the get go, it appealed to me and I often chose the "stricter" interpretation during my early years as a Muslim. Once I started wearing the hijab, it didn't take more than a two months before I started donning the niqab. It was a mixture of reasons. First and foremost, there had been a build up surrounding the niqab; truly pious women wore the niqab because this was the closest to emulating the Prophet's wives. It was the most "Islamic", the "purest". There was also, in addition to this, quite the peer pressure, even though it was never officially stated. Once a sister began wearing the niqab, the other sisters around her didn't want to be any less devout or whatever. Me and my close friend had discussed wearing the niqab for a long time, so one night when she came over to me wearing it I thought "yeah, this is it".

    It was always a hassle wearing the damn thing. In the beginning, you were so "in love" with it, that you didn't mind the hardships connected with it. For me it was a spiritual act and I did feel like I came closer to practicing Islam like Mo wanted me, and how allah commanded me. I always felt it was a personal choice, even though I today recognize the context and surrounding around me that affected my choice.

    The niqab is truly an unnatural thing to wear. No matter the quality, no matter the fabric, no matter anything, it will always be in the way and it will always be a nuisance to wear it. Common side effects are dark rings under the eyes, constant head aches, feeling sick after being in the car for five minutes... Yeah, it's just isn't a very pleasant cloth to wear. I spent hours upon hours trying to find the right fabric and design. I ended up with a one piece velcro niqab with a high quality fabric from Sunnah Styles I ordered from Canada for 10 dollars/piece. They lasted for three or four months before the velcro stopped holding. I can honestly say that I was somewhat comfortable in those niqabs, even though I got nauseous and had minor head aches after a couple of hours with it. But they were heaven in comparison with the half face niqab, or the Saudi style (oh, the horror of the Saudi style niqab!!!). Too bad I only found them two years before I finally took it off. What a relief it would've been had I found then earlier when I really needed them!

    It was because of the niqab, the actual side effects of wearing it and not people around me reacting or whatever, that made me not want to go to school for more than a couple of hours or that made it almost impossible to work in areas where I couldn't take it off after a while. As for reactions around me, from Muslims I was either treated either as "oh mashaallah sister" or "eehhh, sister why you be so extreme?". Actually, I was treated harsher and felt far more insulted and humiliated from a particular incident in a "ikhwani masjid" than I had ever been out in the infidel society.

    From non-Muslims, personally, I was in general treated well. When people met me, talked to me, listened to me, they were always intrigued. They were interested in me, and in what I said because I have always been a good "talker". But being harassed and attacked wasn't something unusual either. I've had my share of scary moments, even though I was never physically beaten (though, I personally knew ladies who had been). I'm a person with a hard shell, it isn't breaking me. So the insults and attacks only strengthened my resolve to wear the niqab with pride. I didn't want anyone else dictating my choice following my religious beliefs.

    To be honest, when you get close to a sister who wears the niqab, she will always admit that she in reality does not like wearing the niqab. Maybe she loves the niqab for what (she thinks) it stands for, or what it represents to her, or the fact that she feels she is being loved by allah for donning it. But to the actual piece of cloth, and the actual practical implications for wearing it... then everyone hated it.

    The funny thing is that when I went to UAE, I still felt like an outsider. Even though a lot of women wore the niqab there, I just didn't like seeing the practical implications of being totally anonymous. Being in a non-Muslim country, you were never confronted with the picture of a anonymous dark mass that became the whole female population. And then you saw women around you not covering at all, and wondered why it was such a big thing. It was somewhat of a wake up call being there. All of a sudden the "special-ness" of the niqab seemed to silly and stupid, and you saw it for what it was. An enormous obstacle in being a normal person in a normal world.


     

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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