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 Topic: I think it is time for me to leave Islam

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  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #30 - March 30, 2010, 11:51 AM
    Quote from: z10 on March 30, 2010, 11:03 AM
    you cannot blame Allah for what he has promised to do numerous times throughout the Quran.


    Yes you can - at the very least you can be disgusted with such a "Divine Plan" for mankind - as it makes no sense (i.e. test) and is cruel and petty. Regardless - it's definitely one of the reasons to reject such a God.

    Quote from: z10 on March 30, 2010, 11:03 AM
    There are plenty of reasons for thinking Allah is a fraud, but i'm sorry to say, the death of a relative is not one of them


    True but it raises the question "Why" and Islam (or any religion) cannot provide an adequate response to that.

    Why does God need make us suffer pain?

    And trust me - anyone who has suffered such pain that life itself is not worth living - that they would rather have never been born - deserves an answer to that question.

    I have heard all the answers religion gives. They are all inadequate.

    The lack of an adequate response to this question is a very good reason to reject religion/God.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #31 - March 30, 2010, 11:56 AM
    Quote from: z10 on March 30, 2010, 11:08 AM
    Perhaps this is going ot, but I think there is a good case for the argument peruvianskies.
    God promises death, God delivers death. The promise is fulfilled, whether you like it or not, god is living up to herself.


    It doesn't matter what God promises in the Qur'an - that is handed to you when you are in nappies anyway - the penny doesn't drop until you yourself are afflicted by unbearable tragedy. When it does I think you have very good reason to say - "You know what! This Divine Plan sucks!"

    I could make a religion where I promise to shove a skewer up the arse of anyone who doesn't fast on a Monday. Those who fast on a Monday might have no problem with it. But when someone skips a fast - perhaps through no fault of his own - then suddenly feel a skewer shafting up through him, will now have good reason to reject my religion, because he now sees the reality of it. People often don't consider this question until they feel pain. It's easier to see a religion as making sense when it's not your father, mother, son, daughter or baby.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #32 - March 30, 2010, 12:08 PM
    In the past I used to dismiss the "Angry with God for making me suffer" reason for rejecting religion - but now I realise that when you yourself suffer such pain that you don't want to continue living - it gives you a whole new perspective on God's Divine Plan and people have every right - at the very least - to start questioning.

    Yes, there are many more and blindingly obvious reasons to reject Islam.

    But as I always say - never underestimate the emotional side of human beings. Emotions can wake people up as well as keep them in line.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #33 - March 30, 2010, 12:30 PM
    If there is no God then we just have to accept that this life can truly suck and we have no choice but to make the best of it.

    Once you bring an Omnipotent and Omniscient God into the equation then he becomes responsible and have to ask why has he done things this way? What is he testing? Could he not have achieved whatever goal he wanted for us, without inflicting such terrible suffering?

    I've yet to see a Divine Plan that answers any of the above questions.

    I'm sure you've seen this - it touches on what I'm trying to say:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6UPDxOXiaw
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #34 - March 30, 2010, 12:41 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 30, 2010, 12:30 PM
    If there is no God then we just have to accept that this life can truly suck and we have no choice but to make the best of it.

    Exactly!
    And this is precisely what atheism is all about. Atheism offers a fundamental lesson in dignity and courage. It is marked by the awareness of the bitter outcome of every human life, since there is no higher authority watching over our fates and guaranteeing a happy outcome.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #35 - March 30, 2010, 12:44 PM
    well put Kenan
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  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #36 - March 30, 2010, 12:44 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on March 30, 2010, 12:41 PM
    Exactly!
    And this is precisely what atheism is all about. Atheism offers a fundamental lesson in dignity and courage. It is marked by the awareness of the bitter outcome of every human life, since there is no higher authority watching over our fates and guaranteeing a happy outcome.


    Yes and the funny thing is that if there is a God I bet he loves Atheists the most lol  Afro
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #37 - March 30, 2010, 12:47 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 30, 2010, 12:44 PM
    Yes and the funny thing is that if there is a God I bet he loves Atheists the most lol  Afro

    Attached image is missing * rehab477.jpg (204.04 KB, 744x259 - viewed 358 times.)
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #38 - March 30, 2010, 12:56 PM
    lol...  Afro
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #39 - March 30, 2010, 01:06 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on March 30, 2010, 12:41 PM
    Exactly!
    And this is precisely what atheism is all about. Atheism offers a fundamental lesson in dignity and courage. It is marked by the awareness of the bitter outcome of every human life, since there is no higher authority watching over our fates and guaranteeing a happy outcome.


    But terrible things happen to religous people as well - life can truly suck for them as well. These people get on with their lives and try to make the best of whatever they have as well. Some people who have suffered are completely selfless and try to help others whilst ignoring their own pain. These are human traits. I don't think they have anything to do with whether someone is Atheist or religous. It is not because religous people who have suffered lack courage that they don't renounce religion - it's because they have faith in God's plan - that is the dividing line.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #40 - March 30, 2010, 01:37 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 30, 2010, 01:06 PM
    It is not because religous people who have suffered lack courage that they don't renounce religion - it's because they have faith in God's plan - that is the dividing line.


    I understand that Abu Y, and I respect that. What annoys me is when religious people blame those who lose their faith as a result of such things as if they lack courage or lack wisdom etc... What I am saying is they have every right to lose faith in God's plan. There is nothing in either the Qur'an or the Bible that gives them any reason to have faith that God is someone to trust and have faith in.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #41 - March 30, 2010, 02:02 PM
    I do agree - I too find it a bit silly when both 'sides' start accusing the other of lacking courage etc.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #42 - March 30, 2010, 02:48 PM
    AbuY you talk about blind faith as if its a positive thing. Its not. Blind faith despite all evidence to the contrary is stupid.

    What is the reason for the faith because of which people continue to justify everything as part of being god's plan even when their relatives die or terrible things happen, etc?
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #43 - March 30, 2010, 03:25 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 30, 2010, 02:02 PM
    I do agree - I too find it a bit silly when both 'sides' start accusing the other of lacking courage etc.


    Besides I tend to think that anyone who has lost their faith purely as a result of a personal tragedy may regain it again. In other words it's possible it's a temporary thing.

    But for many - tragedy and suffering are only the catalyst that starts them asking very difficult questions about their faith. It is the answers they find that leads to a more profound loss of faith and not grief at a particular tragedy.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #44 - March 30, 2010, 03:27 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 30, 2010, 02:02 PM
    I do agree - I too find it a bit silly when both 'sides' start accusing the other of lacking courage etc.

    Freudian slip?
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #45 - March 30, 2010, 03:50 PM
    Sorry for your loss. Welcome to the forum though.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #46 - March 30, 2010, 07:27 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 30, 2010, 03:25 PM
    Besides I tend to think that anyone who has lost their faith purely as a result of a personal tragedy may regain it again. In other words it's possible it's a temporary thing.

    But for many - tragedy and suffering are only the catalyst that starts them asking very difficult questions about their faith. It is the answers they find that leads to a more profound loss of faith and not grief at a particular tragedy.

    I think also some muslims dont want to rock the boat with their beliefs.  They have been on a good wave so far in life, nothing has ever really gone wrong and it feels like God is guiding them through.  Once they realise they are just as unlucky as everyone else, muslim, non-muslim,kaffir, despite their beliefs then this special status as a muslim seems to be not divinely inspired at all.
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  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #47 - March 30, 2010, 07:48 PM
     thnkyu all for your kind words. Liberated im from Faislabad in Pakistan, and I live in Birmingham.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #48 - March 30, 2010, 08:11 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 30, 2010, 09:03 AM
    I'm really sorry for your loss. I do know what it feels like and I also recognise the anger that you feel with God.

    If there is an all-knowing and all-powerful God then we are all quite justified in feeling angry with him for making us suffer, since this is all part of an all powerful and all-knowing God's divine plan - and to put his creatures through such terrible pain and disaster without giving them any good reason for it is surely very cruel.

    Although Oz is right that suffering and pain in itself is not a particularly good argument against religion - Unlike Oz - I believe it highlights a question that religion does not have an adequate answer.

    When billions of human beings are forced to suffer terrible pain and tragedy - children drowned in Tsunamis, mothers crushed in Earthquakes, babies born with genetical defects and loved ones snatched through illness and disease - and then say "It's OK, I needed to test you - and I will give you a really happy life in the next life." - Is just not good enough!

    If you force someone to endure the unendurable and bear the unbearable - and then say to  them "I have a very good reason, but I can't tell you yet!" - that is unacceptable. No amount of divine reward can make up for the losses and cruel tragedies one has been forced to suffer in this world. And the thought that God might somehow erase those memories or somehow compensate by bringing loved ones back to us - doesn't cut it in my book.

    For me, suffering poses a big question about God - and a very valid one!




    Age-old question asked by many a great man, including Job (who got his answer)
    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #49 - March 30, 2010, 08:11 PM
    I'm really Sorry for your loss Anisa.

    Welcome
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #50 - March 30, 2010, 08:17 PM
    Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on March 30, 2010, 08:11 PM
    Age-old question asked by many a great man, including Job (who got his answer)


    And what was that?

    The only answer Islam (or other religions) provide is that it's some sort of test of faith.

    Stand still while Allah twists your nipple and to see how long it take you to scream! By this wise and wonderful test Allah will know you are worthy of my his reward - but scream and lose faith in a God who has failed to provide any evidence of his existence and he will torture you forever.

    Truly Allah is wise and Merciful.
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #51 - March 30, 2010, 08:21 PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El4KxBWRol0
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #52 - March 30, 2010, 08:22 PM
    I dont know the answer either.  However I know one thing, without even hearing it.  That it will be intellectually unsatisfying, and irritatingly stupid too.
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  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #53 - March 30, 2010, 08:23 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on March 30, 2010, 08:22 PM
    it will be intellectually unsatisfying, and irritatingly stupid too.


    Well it is Arab-Wannabe.  Roll Eyes
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #54 - March 30, 2010, 08:58 PM
    The only answer religion provides is that this is some sort of test and one must have 'faith' and you will get a great reward.

    It is no surprise faith is so highly stressed - because without it religion would collapse.

    One must have faith - even though there is no proof that <insert religion> is true.

    "I'll make Job suffer pain and loss and see if he stays faithful!"

    "Yes! He passed!"

    "Let me see if Abraham will take his son up the mountain and sacrifice him to me!"

    "Yes! He passed!"

    "Let me see if I destroy this town under an earthquake making orphans and mothers weeping over their babies - will they still be faithful? (even though I know the answer of course! - Muwahahahaha!)"

    "Some passed - well done! Eternal pleasure for you guys!"

    "Aha! you guys failed - off to hell with you suckers!"

    "Boy - this testing shit is the best fun ever! OK time for a Tsunami over there and some disease over there"
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #55 - March 30, 2010, 09:02 PM
    God likes to test old Haitian grannies. Roll Eyes
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #56 - March 30, 2010, 09:03 PM
    Hassan thank you very much for that second video you have posted up. It made me think alot. i watched it over many times. The words from that video that really got to me, was
    Quote
    why did god make us when he knows most of us are gona fail and go to hell!

     
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #57 - March 30, 2010, 09:05 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 30, 2010, 09:02 PM
    God likes to test old Haitian grannies. Roll Eyes


    Nah - the Haitians are just cannon fodder - God was testing some fat rich bastard in Florida to see if he would send a few dollars to the local "Help Haiti" charity!
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #58 - March 30, 2010, 09:06 PM
    Quote from: anisa200 on March 30, 2010, 09:03 PM
    Hassan thank you very much for that second video you have posted up. It made me think alot. i watched it over many times. The words from that video that really got to me, was 


    I knew it would - I really understand what you are going through.

     far away hug
  • Re: I think it is time for me to leave Islam
     Reply #59 - March 31, 2010, 08:41 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on March 30, 2010, 08:23 PM
    Well it is Arab-Wannabe.  Roll Eyes


    You forgot the obligatory reference to pedophilia,
    Quote from: Hassan on March 30, 2010, 08:17 PM
    And what was that?

    The only answer Islam (or other religions) provide is that it's some sort of test of faith.

    Stand still while Allah twists your nipple and to see how long it take you to scream! By this wise and wonderful test Allah will know you are worthy of my his reward - but scream and lose faith in a God who has failed to provide any evidence of his existence and he will torture you forever.

    Truly Allah is wise and Merciful.


    What alternative do you offer?
    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
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