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 Topic: The Religion of Peace

 (Read 13207 times)
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  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #30 - April 08, 2010, 03:34 AM

    My favorite Orwellian speak is from fundamentalist Muslims who hold that the Islamic state should be spread by force, but in a weird kind of self defense justifiable way.  Like once an Islamic state is created every other "state" has to recognize it and let the proselytizers enter in their country, practice Islam fully ( absolutely fully as in every law of Sharia must be enacted [but only apply to Muslims], never disrespect Islam, Muhammad, or the Islamic state ( read criticize), and any abjuration of this opens the state to warfare with Islam and there can only be a temporary peace agreement only until the Islamic state is powerful enough to take them, kill all their men, and take the women and children ( under puberty) all in the same of self defense.  I tried to explain to them that would strip the word "self defense" of all meaning, but it was like trying to explain terms to the characters in 1984

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #31 - April 08, 2010, 08:53 AM

    My favorite Orwellian speak is from fundamentalist Muslims who hold that the Islamic state should be spread by force, but in a weird kind of self defense justifiable way.  Like once an Islamic state is created every other "state" has to recognize it and let the proselytizers enter in their country, practice Islam fully ( absolutely fully as in every law of Sharia must be enacted [but only apply to Muslims], never disrespect Islam, Muhammad, or the Islamic state ( read criticize), and any abjuration of this opens the state to warfare with Islam and there can only be a temporary peace agreement only until the Islamic state is powerful enough to take them, kill all their men, and take the women and children ( under puberty) all in the same of self defense.  I tried to explain to them that would strip the word "self defense" of all meaning, but it was like trying to explain terms to the characters in 1984


    Yes, the initial conquests under the first 4 Caliphs are often justified by saying they were 'provoked' by the Bytantium and Persian Empires for not allowing Islam to be preached.

    Even if that were true, did they allow Christianity or the Zoroastrian religion to be preached?

    Islam is a religion of Peace so long as you re-define Peace to mean 'Aggression'.  Roll Eyes
  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #32 - April 08, 2010, 09:25 AM


    Yeah, whenever I read or hear a Muslim invoking the Crusades to bolster their victimhood complex I get annoyed because most of the times these Muslims will never acknowledge that Islam historically was an aggressive, violent crusading religion that expanded its domain through the use of force and aggression as barbaric as the Christian crusades, and it was against innocent lands and religions.

    Thats fine, Muslims are partisan and in denial. What gets me is the way that people in the West fetishise the crusades and self flaggelate about it, as if Muslims are eternal victims and have never been aggressors, and how it is all part of a never ending continuum of 'Islamophobia', all to feed into the agenda of people in denial about the structural issues inherent in Islam that cause problems and inhibit an engagement with modernity. The Mehdi Hasans and MCB's of the world, the soft dawah of Rageh Omar's BBC programmes, that kind of thing. It is disgraceful, when you think about it. There is whole history out there that has been whitewashed, and continues to be ignored, for all sorts of reasons.

     

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #33 - April 08, 2010, 11:17 AM

    It's always worth mentioning that the Crusades started in 1096 in response to Islamic expansionism in the Levant and Anatolia.

    The Byzantine emperor, Komnenos, asked Pope Urban II for help to repel the Islamic empire.

    My favorite Orwellian speak is from fundamentalist Muslims who hold that the Islamic state should be spread by force, but in a weird kind of self defense justifiable way.  Like once an Islamic state is created every other "state" has to recognize it and let the proselytizers enter in their country, practice Islam fully ( absolutely fully as in every law of Sharia must be enacted [but only apply to Muslims], never disrespect Islam, Muhammad, or the Islamic state ( read criticize), and any abjuration of this opens the state to warfare with Islam and there can only be a temporary peace agreement only until the Islamic state is powerful enough to take them, kill all their men, and take the women and children ( under puberty) all in the same of self defense.  I tried to explain to them that would strip the word "self defense" of all meaning, but it was like trying to explain terms to the characters in 1984


    They like to claim that the expansion of the Islamic empire is good and necessary in order to prevent the non-Muslims from controlling any part of the world and thereby corrupting the minds of their children with un-Islamic philosophies. All people everywhere have to be brought under the control of Islam so that they can prevent bad philosophies like Christianity, Buddhism or secularism from destroying the minds of the  youth in those countries.

    It's all to protect the children.   yes

    I would have thought it was blatantly obvious that Islam means peace through submission to Islam, and Islam being the consensus of the ulema; Islam is peaceful when all the world becomes Muslims. You're right it is a double speech - and I've caught Muslims out on this when they start talking about Islam being peace and tolerance and I rattle of a list of countries that execute GLBT people. All I get is a whole lot of stuttering followed by, "well, they don't represent Islam" (then who the fuck represents Islam if the people don't represent it - after all, it is the practitioners who interpret and implement the fucking religion!).


    It's always amusing when they say that at the same time as claiming that Islam is peaceful and tolerant. I mean, if countries like Saudi Arabia are the product of a watered-down version of Islam, how much feckin' worse would a complete Islamic state be?

    I kinda hope Hizb at-Tahrir get their way so everyone can see how fucked up a pure Islamic state really would be. Mind you, they'd probably still say, 'Oh, they weren't doing it right!'
  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #34 - April 08, 2010, 11:20 AM


    Look, the crusades were shit. But they took place hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago, and the West has come to terms with them, introspected and been self-critical about them. The Islamic world needs to do exactly the same about its own history of violent crusades against non Muslims societies and cultures.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #35 - April 08, 2010, 02:33 PM


    I don´t know why people keep harping on about the Crusades, the conquest of Constantinople by the Turks was every bit as bloody as the conquest of Jerusalem by the crusaders

    Quote
    With Giustiniani's Genoese troops retreating into the city and towards the harbour, Constantine and his men, now left to their own devices, kept fighting and managed to hold off the attackers for a while. At this point, some historians suggest that the Kerkoporta gate in the Blachernae section had been left unlocked, and the Ottomans soon discovered this mistake.[48] The Ottomans rushed in. Around the same time, the defenders were being overwhelmed at several points in Constantine's section. When Turkish flags were seen flying above the Kerkoporta, a panic ensued and the defense collapsed, as Janissary soldiers, led by Ulubatlı Hasan pressed forward. It is said that Constantine, throwing aside his purple regalia, led the final charge against the oncoming Ottomans, dying in the ensuing battle in the streets like his soldiers, although his ultimate fate remains unknown.[49]

     
    Mehmed II enters Constantinople with his army by Fausto ZonaroAfter the initial assault, the Ottoman army fanned out along the main thoroughfare of the city, the Mese, past the great forums, and past the Church of the Holy Apostles, which Mehmed II wanted to provide a seat for his newly appointed patriarch which would help him better control his Christian subjects. Mehmed II had sent an advance guard to protect key buildings such as the Holy Apostles, as he did not wish to establish his new capital in a thoroughly devastated city.

    The Army converged upon the Augusteum, the vast square that fronted the great church of Hagia Sophia whose bronze gates were barred by a huge throng of civilians inside the building, hoping for divine protection. After the doors were breached, the troops separated the congregation according to what price they might bring on the slave markets. Mehmed II allowed his troops to plunder the city for three days, during which multitudes of civilians were massacred and enslaved.[50]There was raping and pillaging according to the English historian John Julius Norwich.[51] Soldiers fought over the possession of some of the spoils of war.[51][52] According to the Venetian surgeon Nicolo Barbaro "all through the day the Turks made a great slaughter of Christians through the city".[53] At the conclusion of the siege, Mehmet ordered all looting to stop and sent his troops back outside the walls.[54][55


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #36 - April 08, 2010, 02:39 PM

    Yeah but they weren't white so it's ok. Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #37 - April 08, 2010, 03:42 PM

    Both the crusades and the Islamic empire were bloody. And we don't even have to get at the crusades. We just have to look at what happened to those women accused of being witches, and what happened to non-catholic christians in the middle ages to know its not a religion of peace.

    my point was that neither was a religion of peace.

    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #38 - April 08, 2010, 09:22 PM

    Both the crusades and the Islamic empire were bloody. And we don't even have to get at the crusades. We just have to look at what happened to those women accused of being witches, and what happened to non-catholic christians in the middle ages to know its not a religion of peace.

    my point was that neither was a religion of peace.


    Aye, but come on, man, there's a huge drop off after Islam to Christianity.

    A true religion of peace would have to be Jainism, the core precept of which is non-violence.

    Look, the crusades were shit. But they took place hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago, and the West has come to terms with them, introspected and been self-critical about them. The Islamic world needs to do exactly the same about its own history of violent crusades against non Muslims societies and cultures.



    No argument with that. But it seems that Muslims lack the kind of tradition of self-criticism that exists in the West.
  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #39 - April 08, 2010, 09:27 PM

    I don´t know why people keep harping on about the Crusades, the conquest of Constantinople by the Turks was every bit as bloody as the conquest of Jerusalem by the crusaders

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople


    Muslims celebrate and whitewash and elevate it as something wonderful! Any westerner who gloats about or glosses over the crusades is vilified (and to a certain extent, quite rightly, in my opinion)

    But the mainstream of Islam actually elevates these deeply problematic historical truths either as benign or as something to be celebrated as part of the wonderful spread of the domain of Islam. I find it so infuriating! Whenever a Muslim invokes the crusades to score a point, all of this should be brought up to tell them to be honest about the past, or about how anyone can use history for their own ends, and about how Islam has to be introspective about its history.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #40 - April 09, 2010, 06:21 AM

    It's always amusing when they say that at the same time as claiming that Islam is peaceful and tolerant. I mean, if countries like Saudi Arabia are the product of a watered-down version of Islam, how much feckin' worse would a complete Islamic state be?

    I kinda hope Hizb at-Tahrir get their way so everyone can see how fucked up a pure Islamic state really would be. Mind you, they'd probably still say, 'Oh, they weren't doing it right!'


    Hearing them is like hearing the various leftist parties at university who each claim that the various attempts at communism weren't doing it right. How many times must something be tried before people realise it just doesn't work? I find it funny when Muslims then trying to point out faults with the existing system - whilst deliberately ignoring that no one has ever stated that the system was perfect (when compared to Muslims who claimed that their system is perfect without faults).

    To be fair, the majority of Muslims don't believe the shit the minority spreads but they're dragged up as part of it through pressure in the community that if they don't then they're not practicing 'true Islam'(tm)

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #41 - April 09, 2010, 06:44 AM

    Aye, but come on, man, there's a huge drop off after Islam to Christianity.

    Had to mention them together. There just isn't anything that compares to Islam in its violentness, and the next worst best thing is Christianity. So I pick on that next.  Wink

    Quote
      A true religion of peace would have to be Jainism, the core precept of which is non-violence.

    True. And Buddhism.

    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #42 - April 09, 2010, 10:46 AM

    I dunno. The Aztecs were pretty damned violent. They didn't have the range of the other two but within their field of influence they managed to shed a fair bit of blood.

    Now imagine if that religion had taken off in a big way. Thousands of people getting their hearts ripped out every time a new temple was built. Kinda makes knocking up a mosque or too look rather boring. Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #43 - April 10, 2010, 02:03 PM

    I dunno. The Aztecs were pretty damned violent. They didn't have the range of the other two but within their field of influence they managed to shed a fair bit of blood.

    Now imagine if that religion had taken off in a big way. Thousands of people getting their hearts ripped out every time a new temple was built. Kinda makes knocking up a mosque or too look rather boring. Wink

    The Aztecs may have committed human sacrifice, but read the Bible, it definitely makes them Aztecs look a little bit more peaceful.

    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #44 - April 10, 2010, 02:05 PM

    I dunno. The Aztecs were pretty damned violent. They didn't have the range of the other two but within their field of influence they managed to shed a fair bit of blood.

    Now imagine if that religion had taken off in a big way. Thousands of people getting their hearts ripped out every time a new temple was built.

    All in my name! How sweet! ^_^

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #45 - April 10, 2010, 04:51 PM

    All in my name! How sweet! ^_^


    You're worse than Allah, Tlaloc.  Tongue
  • Re: The Religion of Peace
     Reply #46 - April 10, 2010, 11:04 PM

    You're worse than Allah, Tlaloc.  Tongue

    Nah, the only thing worse than Allah is Yahweh/Holy spirit/Jesus, and then comes Quetzalcoatl, then the other gods like that. Then Tlaloc. (only kiddin Tlaloc)

    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
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