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Theme Changer

 Topic: Women

 (Read 63586 times)
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  • Re: Women
     Reply #420 - April 12, 2010, 02:05 AM

    ... no way, z10!! Or as the hero (arguable) Buzz Lightyear from Toy Story would say: Never surrender, never give up!

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Women
     Reply #421 - April 12, 2010, 02:19 AM

       ♪♪♫♫♫♪ I can be your hero baby. I can take away your tears ♪♪♫♫♫♪

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Women
     Reply #422 - April 12, 2010, 02:20 AM

    Having reviewed the video again I see your point. Apparently the Mosou and Naxi peoples have moved away from matriarchy in recent times as their interaction with the outside world has developed, but still maintain a matrilinear descent.

    I admit I know nothing about Mosuo society apart from what I learned from that video, so I'm not qualified to argue about it in great detail. However, when I see an apparently sane and intelligent woman, who is intimately familiar with the culture due to having been born into it, claiming that it is a society in which men hold the real power I'm not going to discount her opinion unless presented with something convincing that contradicts her.


    Quote
    I think those basic drives can be fulfilled by systems other than patriarchy, but that this became dominant for a variety of reasons.

    I would agree with that statement, as far as it goes.


    Quote
    The point of the Mosuo example is that their culture is obviously not classically patriarchal (women are the heads of the houses). Men do not see themselves as superior to women in respect to making decisions affecting their families. I'm not arguing against any genetic predispositions towards certain drives or urges, not at all. What I've taken issue with is the idea that it's natural to be sexist in a social sense because sexism exists as a set of ideas encoded at a genetic level, apparently in the same way racism is.

    Ok, but why are you taking issue with that? It seems to me that the only reason is that it's an uncomfortable thing to confront.


    Quote
    Conflating complex sets of ideas and social values with basic urges and impulses (which may well be the catalyst for the development of the former)...

    This is my point. It is no use to claim that something is a result of culture unless you can also explain how and why that culture developed. Sure, humans have a tendency to build complex edifices on the basis of very little. That is, after all, the way religions operate. The underlying causes are still interesting and potentially important.


    Quote
    ... as a way of justifying the continuation of sexism or racism (since PAT included both) seems just a tad disingenuous. I want to be clear, I'm not rejecting evolutionary psychology but what I felt was its hijacking in defense of maintaining a sexist (or racist) outlook.

    Ok, that's fine, but there are two problems. First problem is whether the point being hijacked is valid, irrespective of whether it is being hijacked to support something that is ethically unsupportable.

    The second problem is that what you are trying to guard against is actually the very thing I would strongly argue against. You're in a similar position to a creationist Christian who feels obliged to argue against evolution because it "leads" to social Darwinism.

    My point is the exact opposite of that. I'm saying that I don't care if sexism is genetic or not. Couldn't give a rat's either way. However, from what I can see I think there is evidence that it does have a genetic component, and that in turn means it is going to be more persistent and more insidious than if it was a purely cultural problem. If this is the case it is certainly something we should try to be aware of, instead of sweeping it under the carpet because we don't want to believe it.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Women
     Reply #423 - April 12, 2010, 02:34 AM

    ... no way, z10!! Or as the hero (arguable) Buzz Lightyear from Toy Story would say: Never surrender, never give up!


     Cheesy

    having said all that, I agree with you. Heroes are a fiction.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Women
     Reply #424 - April 12, 2010, 07:23 AM

    Ok, but why are you taking issue with that? It seems to me that the only reason is that it's an uncomfortable thing to confront.

    Not at all. I'm taking issue with it because there is a difference between saying that there might be a genetic predisposition towards my sexist attitudes which makes them potentially more difficult to overcome versus saying I am sexist because of my genetic predisposition and this will continue to be so.

    This is my point. It is no use to claim that something is a result of culture unless you can also explain how and why that culture developed. Sure, humans have a tendency to build complex edifices on the basis of very little. That is, after all, the way religions operate. The underlying causes are still interesting and potentially important.

    I agree with you here. We humans could even have genetic predispositions which have allowed idelogies like religion to develop and flourish over the centuries. But saying I might be genetically pre-disposed towards believing in a religion is quite different from saying I am religious because of my genetic makeup and that will continue to be so.

    Ok, that's fine, but there are two problems. First problem is whether the point being hijacked is valid, irrespective of whether it is being hijacked to support something that is ethically unsupportable.

    The second problem is that what you are trying to guard against is actually the very thing I would strongly argue against. You're in a similar position to a creationist Christian who feels obliged to argue against evolution because it "leads" to social Darwinism.

    My point is the exact opposite of that. I'm saying that I don't care if sexism is genetic or not. Couldn't give a rat's either way. However, from what I can see I think there is evidence that it does have a genetic component, and that in turn means it is going to be more persistent and more insidious than if it was a purely cultural problem. If this is the case it is certainly something we should try to be aware of, instead of sweeping it under the carpet because we don't want to believe it.

    Firstly, I think my hijacking point is valid given my understanding of what was said (as in my above points). Secondly, I realise you think I'm arguing against your points about genetic foundations in the creation and guiding development of certain ideologies, but honestly I'm not. This is probably my fault because my initial arguments lacked much depth on my beliefs on the subject.

    Your point is that you don't care whether sexism is genetic or not, but you think it has a genetic component (foundation, I assume). Again, I agree that it probably does. But I think that overstating that genetic component as a justification for continuing to be sexist is a weak excuse. I would say the same to a racist. Whether or not the racist be genetically pre-disposed towards othering people who look somewhat different than themselves, they cannot use this argument in an intellectual context to justify actively continuing to be racist. ie. I know it's wrong, but my genes made me do it. I think that this reasoning attempts to eschew responsibility for holding on to those outlooks without seeing a need to make any internal adjustment to the way you see the world.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Women
     Reply #425 - April 12, 2010, 07:27 AM

    Looks like we basically agree then. I was never in favour of using genetics as a justification. Quite the opposite. My position is that although genetics may be partially responsible that still does not mean they can be used as a justification for continuing. 

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Women
     Reply #426 - April 12, 2010, 07:29 AM

    Contrary to what Think free is trying to suggest; I'm not trying to justify the stereotypes I hold as a good thing by bringing in my university study of choice--Psychology. Due to his misunderstanding and confirmation bias, what he is failing to understand is that I'm simply saying I know where it comes from. We are all born with the tendency to be biased--weather it's racial biased, sex bias...whatever. That bit about me still being a sexist, was a joke. I thought he'd know that since I followed it up with a "lol" but I guess I can't expect too much critical thinking from him regarding his own posts.

    However, for those of you who actually wants to learn, I've managed to find this article that my college professor showed us.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199805/where-bias-begins-the-truth-about-stereotypes

    Edit:

    This is an important part of the article I want to bring into focus:
    Quote
    Bargh thinks that stereotypes may emerge from what social psychologists call in-group/out-group dynamics. Humans, like other species, need to feel that they are part of a group, and as villages, clans, and other traditional groupings have broken down, our identities have attached themselves to more ambiguous classifications, such as race and class. We want to feel good about the group we belong to--and one way of doing so is to denigrate all those who who aren't in it. And while we tend to see members of our own group as individuals, we view those in out-groups as an undifferentiated--stereotyped--mass. The categories we use have changed, but it seems that stereotyping itself is bred in the bone.


    That's actually what those books I recommended argues as well; since that's more of an explanation from Evolutionary Psychology.

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Women
     Reply #427 - April 12, 2010, 07:43 AM

    My position is that although genetics may be partially responsible that still does not mean they can be used as a justification for continuing. 


    +1

    That pretty much summarizes what I've been trying to explain.

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Women
     Reply #428 - April 12, 2010, 09:21 AM

    +1

    That pretty much summarizes what I've been trying to explain.

    Which is also what I believe. Looks like we're all basically on the same page. On reflection it looks like I misread your original post on the matter. I apologise for jumping down your throat since I now realise you were joking. My bad.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Women
     Reply #429 - April 12, 2010, 11:45 AM

    Anyway, this discussion is going in circles now. If someone really wanted to be fat, they wouldn't care about the insults that come with it. If I want to marry a black girl, I will become the laughing stock of my family but that wouldn't stop me from doing it if I wanted to. I have a big nose too. You can make all sorts of jokes about big noses if you want, but that wouldn't cause me to want to get a plastic surgery. If someone genuinely wanted to be fat, they wouldn't be offended by jokes about it.

    That's all I gotta say on this.

    It's not going in circles.

    I managed to pinpoint the core behind the logic you displayed.

    To summarize, you believe certain people deserve to get hurt by insults about certain behaviors that only affect themselves but that you consider against your ideal way of living.

    And, additionally, you believe that anyone that doesn't share your ideals of life is mentally disturbed and should be cured.

    Maybe to you it seems to be going in circles because you keep focusing on finding reasons as why being fat should be considered "universally negative by anyone sane".

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Women
     Reply #430 - April 12, 2010, 11:49 AM

    To summarize even more:

    You believe it's impossible that what you consider "good/nice/pleasurable/etcetera" can be considered "evil/bad/annoying/etcetera" by somebody sane (and vice versa).
    So "correcting" their thoughts is kinda like doing them a favor.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Women
     Reply #431 - April 12, 2010, 11:56 AM

    To all the women in this forum and in the world (including my mother) I dedicate this song....  far away hug


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaLfDnShEn0

    ...
  • Re: Women
     Reply #432 - April 12, 2010, 11:59 AM

    Break out the violins. Tongue

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Women
     Reply #433 - April 12, 2010, 12:06 PM

    Break out the violins. Tongue


    Yeah... and lets all do the happy dance!

    Ozonedance

    ...
  • Re: Women
     Reply #434 - April 12, 2010, 02:56 PM

    Which is also what I believe. Looks like we're all basically on the same page. On reflection it looks like I misread your original post on the matter. I apologise for jumping down your throat since I now realise you were joking. My bad.


    It's okay bro. Apology accepted. Glad we sewed up the misunderstanding then  Afro

    Btw, just as a side discussion, do you believe that if something is in your genetic code, that means that we will be slaves to it?

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Women
     Reply #435 - April 12, 2010, 04:56 PM

    To all the women in this forum and in the world (including my mother) I dedicate this song....  far away hug

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaLfDnShEn0


    That was beautiful. It reminds us that we must always show respect to the women in our lives...unless you happen to be the leader of the most successful band of all time and the (think for a word that isn't "bitch"...think...think...think) meddler is causing the band to break up.

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Women
     Reply #436 - April 12, 2010, 06:27 PM

    Btw, just as a side discussion, do you believe that if something is in your genetic code, that means that we will be slaves to it?

    Depends on what that something is. If it's the urge is to consume food, then in a way yes because otherwise we wouldn't last very long. Wink Still, it's noteworthy that we are able to consciously subdue even this most basic impulse to starve ourselves to death if we wish. Although completely repressing our urges can also lead to problems (look no further than the Catholic Church for examples of what sexual repression can lead to).

    I believe humans are able to make conscious decisions as to whether they act upon an impulse most of the time. Perhaps when suffering mental impariment (illness, drugs) it's possible that our consciousness is repressed to the point that we are unable to restrain ourselves. These would constitute extraordinary circumstances, however.

    Sometimes our base drives can align with more complex social ideas (many of which may have evolved from or been honed by those same drives in our ancestors), at which point they can be much more difficult to overcome as they are entrenched in culture or ideologies. For example, I think that the way men are encouraged to view women in islam is related to the way women tend to be treated in muslim countries. A man has a choice whether to rape his wife no matter how strong his sexual urge might be, but if he's been socialised to believe that a woman has no right to refuse him and that her physical and emotional wellbeing are secondary to his desires then there is a strong possibility he may continue using those ideas as justification for his actions. He could have easily satisfied his urge in another way, but the same ideology that informs him that his wife is there for his pleasure is also ensuring that a quick five knuckle shuffle is out of the question.  banghead

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Women
     Reply #437 - April 12, 2010, 06:43 PM

    Sure. When I was younger, I had to come to terms with the anti-semitism I was raised with, and bought into. As I mentioned in the other thread, I was raised to believe that Jews were intrinsically bad. It took time and education and exposure to other points of view that made me realize that this was a false stereotype.

    Growing up in the U.S., there was a time I had also became swept up in disdain for poor people, the homeless, and immigrants from Mexico and the south American nations. It didn't last long, because I was myself brown and not from a wealthy family, but I did have some friends when I was in my teens who espoused somewhat bigoted views which I was peer-pressured into believing. It took a short foray into living in an urban environment (Boston) with lots of racial and other diversity, and getting educated in economics and sociology for me to discard those notions about the poor, the homeless and Latino peoples.

    Until about 6 or 7 years ago, I was quite ignorant about the issues surrounding transexuality and felt that it was something irreconcilable with what I thought was a binary gender system, that everyone was just a man or a woman and no variations could exist. There was a time when I thought transexuals were just gay people who couldn't come to terms with their homosexuality. Same with bisexuals.

    As with the other biases, it took education about sexuality, sexual diversity, the history of the invention of these terms "homosexual" "heterosexual" "bisexual" and "transexual" and a study of how sexual diversity has been viewed in other cultures, in other times and places, that I came to get a better understanding that there are many different ways of being in the world and what feels "natural" to me is a product of all the various influences that have affected me, and it may not feel the same to someone else. It also took listening to "the others", hearing them out, considering that their life experiences are as real for them as mine are for me, that I developed empathy and a sense that if I want to be authentic to who I am, I have to give other people a chance to be authentic to themselves too, to take their perspectives into consideration and that I should avoid trying to speak *for* them, but talk with them, let them speak, and listen.

    Cool story allat! Thanks!
    If it’s not too much trouble could you elaborate a bit on the "disdain for poor people, the homeless, and immigrants from Mexico and the south American nations". What was the logic behind it and how did this disdain manifest?

  • Re: Women
     Reply #438 - April 12, 2010, 07:10 PM

    I dedicate this song to all the sexist claims that men and women have had over the years Smiley

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY7Hh5PzELo&feature=related

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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