Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion

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Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
Reply #60 - April 11, 2010, 02:12 PM

Quote from: Nour on April 11, 2010, 01:09 PM
Truly the most GLARING example of circular (il)logic if ever I saw one.

yep, its that circular that its making my head spin

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Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
Reply #61 - April 11, 2010, 02:16 PM

Here is a wonderful 'explanation' from our friends at 'Answering Christianity':

http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/women_not_deficient_in_intelligence_and_religion.htm

I laughed so hard my sides ached.

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Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
Reply #62 - April 11, 2010, 04:45 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on April 11, 2010, 11:31 AM
K. Chicks with guns = fun.

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Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
Reply #63 - April 11, 2010, 10:41 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 11, 2010, 02:16 PM
Here is a wonderful 'explanation' from our friends at 'Answering Christianity':

http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/women_not_deficient_in_intelligence_and_religion.htm

I laughed so hard my sides ached.

Are they fucking serious? The prophet was JOKING?!

Yea fucking right. He sounded pretty serious in that hadith. Plus he said that women will fill up most of hell more than once, which tells me that he meant it. God damn how pathetic can some apologists be?

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Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
Reply #64 - April 11, 2010, 10:47 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 11, 2010, 02:16 PM
Here is a wonderful 'explanation' from our friends at 'Answering Christianity':

http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/women_not_deficient_in_intelligence_and_religion.htm

I laughed so hard my sides ached.

Fatwa by Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood?

She's a Mufti now?

Wow!

Honestly the lengths people will go to justify the unjustifiable - it's embarrassing - just give it up already!
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Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
Reply #65 - April 11, 2010, 11:02 PM

Quote from: Hassan on April 11, 2010, 10:47 PM
Fatwa by Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood?

She's a Mufti now?

Wow!

Honestly the lengths people will go to justify the unjustifiable - it's embarrassing - just give it up already!

+1

I simply don't understand. Why can't they just admit that the hadith is misogynistic? Is it that hard for them?

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Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
Reply #66 - April 11, 2010, 11:17 PM

Quote from: Cool Canadian on April 11, 2010, 11:02 PM
+1

I simply don't understand. Why can't they just admit that the hadith is misogynistic? Is it that hard for them?

As I've said previously they're stuck between a rock and a hard place; they either accept it then try to explain away its nastiness or they reject it thus putting up all hadiths into question thus undermining Islamic Sharia. Either way they're going to end up screwing themselves over.

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Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
Reply #67 - April 11, 2010, 11:27 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 11, 2010, 11:53 AM
True, but if you look at the Muhammad Asad translation, which I find alot of female converts like reading, the footnote points to males and females having unique strengths. The question one has to ask is why do you believe that the classical exegetical work have more legitimacy than a later interpretation? if the person is happy with the modern interpretation - are they wrong? deluded? should understanding of the Qur'an be evolving or static?

That's because it's an expurgated, propagandistic piece of shite.

I can tell you that Asad does indeed simply make shit up to make the Qur'an seem less immoral and retarded.

22:65; he translates the verse as saying 'celestial bodies,' when the verse in Arabic only says 'as-samaa'a' or 'sky.' The verse in fact says that the sky is capable of falling to the earth. His commentary on the verse is, essentially, 'it's just a metaphor.'

As for morally embarrassing verses, like 70:29-30 and 23:5-6 which say you can bone your female slaves, he simply says that they refer to one's spouses.

His translation is controversial, and it's banned in Saudi Arabia. And his interpretations go against the works of classical exegesis. So how could all these scholars get it wrong and now some guy in the 20th century gets it right?
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Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
Reply #68 - April 11, 2010, 11:34 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on April 11, 2010, 11:27 PM
That's because it's an expurgated, propagandistic piece of shite.

I can tell you that Asad does indeed simply make shit up to make the Qur'an seem less immoral and retarded.

22:65; he translates the verse as saying 'celestial bodies,' when the verse in Arabic only says 'as-samaa'a' or 'sky.' The verse in fact says that the sky is capable of falling to the earth. His commentary on the verse is, essentially, 'it's just a metaphor.'

As for morally embarrassing verses, like 70:29-30 and 23:5-6 which say you can bone your female slaves, he simply says that they refer to one's spouses.

His translation is controversial, and it's banned in Saudi Arabia. And his interpretations go against the works of classical exegesis. So how could all these scholars get it wrong and now some guy in the 20th century gets it right?

Why there an automatic assumption that the earliest version are correct? why did Ibn Kathir jump to the top of the pile when there were older ones? if everything was 'perfectly laid down' by Muhammad and Co then how do you explain the centuries of debate as to the meaning of certain verses in the Qur'an, the various interpretations, the development of abrogation that some don't agree with and thus don't uphold? from what it sounds like you believe that the only true practitioners of Islam are Salafi's and everyone else is just kidding themselves.

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Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
Reply #69 - April 12, 2010, 12:00 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 11, 2010, 11:34 PM
Why there an automatic assumption that the earliest version are correct? why did Ibn Kathir jump to the top of the pile when there were older ones? if everything was 'perfectly laid down' by Muhammad and Co then how do you explain the centuries of debate as to the meaning of certain verses in the Qur'an, the various interpretations, the development of abrogation that some don't agree with and thus don't uphold? from what it sounds like you believe that the only true practitioners of Islam are Salafi's and everyone else is just kidding themselves.

The differences between the classical scholars are relatively minor. They agree on the main issues that are the source of contention by a handful of modernists. They agree on the vast majority of Sahih hadith - they all agree a man can hit his wife, that men have been put in charge of women and that women are half the testimony of men - get half inheritance and are 'deficient' in mind and religion and should not be allowed to rule the affairs of state and so on...

Even the vast majority of modern scholars agree on these issues.

Apart from Muhammad Asad and those guys at Free-Minds and the Qur'an only Muslims and their like - all of whom still only amount to a tiny fraction - most modern scholars agree with the classical scholars on the main issues.

The few that don't are on the fringe. Amina Wadud who prays in front of men is considered a freak by most Muslims. Show me any of their interpretations and I will show you how they are talking nonsense.

Don't get me wrong - I sincerely wish them luck.

But I don't pretend they really have a sound argument - because they don't.
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Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
Reply #70 - April 12, 2010, 12:10 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on April 11, 2010, 11:34 PM
Why there an automatic assumption that the earliest version are correct? why did Ibn Kathir jump to the top of the pile when there were older ones? if everything was 'perfectly laid down' by Muhammad and Co then how do you explain the centuries of debate as to the meaning of certain verses in the Qur'an, the various interpretations, the development of abrogation that some don't agree with and thus don't uphold? from what it sounds like you believe that the only true practitioners of Islam are Salafi's and everyone else is just kidding themselves.

Because the morality of the earlier interpreters is closer to the morality of Muhammad and the Qur'an. People like Asad and Yusuf Ali are apologists for Islam who try to portray Islam in a favourable light to modern, ignorant Westerners.

Who are you going to trust? Ibn Kathir, who wrote his tafsir in the Medieval era, and not with the intention of making Islam look good to liberal-minded people but rather as a genuine attempt to explain and understand the true teachings of Islam, or, someone like Asad who did his translation to appeal to Western people and to portray Islam in a positive light? Not to mention the fact that his interpretations are so completely at odds with the other mainstream works.

At the very least, who do you think is more likely to be honest?

And it's mainstream Islamic belief that the Prophet and the Sahaba are the embodiment of the purest form of Islam. That's why Ibn Kathir uses a great number of ahadith from Muhammad and the Sahaba, because their judgement, what they said about the teachings of Islam, is necessarily the most correct.

The morality of the Qur'an is the morality of 7th century Arabia. It stands to reason that it's not going to have a very liberal or progressive slant to it.
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Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
Reply #71 - April 12, 2010, 12:22 AM

Even Yusuf Ali's translation is fine.

It's Muhammad Asad's that's a bit of a joke.
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Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
Reply #72 - April 13, 2010, 01:26 AM

Quote
It's Muhammad Asad's that's a bit of a joke.

Forget Translation., Muhammad Asad was a Joke..

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8742.msg218068#msg218068
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1087972#1087972

That guy Asad., Aka Leopold Weiss wrote the following books

Quote
* Road to Mecca
* The Message of The Qur'an
* Translation and commentary on the Sahih Bukhari
* This Law of Ours
* Islam at the Crossroads

It is appalling to see even the name of of that book " Road to Mecca" was Plagiarized. Florence Irwin wrote that book " Road to Mecca" in 1916 when this fellow was 16 year old.. Any way I don't trust his translation etal..

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Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
Reply #73 - December 14, 2012, 06:55 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on April 10, 2010, 01:53 PM
Narrated Abu Said Al-Raghiaf:

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) on 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I am a fuckwit and could do with some help." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle?" He replied, "I am deficient in mind and religion. I couldn't invent a decent belief system if my life depended on it. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by my bullshit." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in your intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of my stupidity obvious?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in my intelligence. Isn't it true that Islam contains all sort of dumb crap?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in my religion."
(Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 69, Number 111)

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Reply #74 - December 14, 2012, 07:58 PM

why did Hassan leave?
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Reply #75 - December 14, 2012, 07:58 PM

He's dealing with some issues in his personal life that are taking up most of his time.

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Reply #76 - December 14, 2012, 08:10 PM

Quote from: Cool Canadian on April 11, 2010, 10:41 PM
Are they fucking serious? The prophet was JOKING?!

Yea fucking right. He sounded pretty serious in that hadith. Plus he said that women will fill up most of hell more than once, which tells me that he meant it. God damn how pathetic can some apologists be?

+1, how ridiculous. For a prophet to joke about who is going to hell is so not cool man!

Seeing as half of the Quran is about who is going to hell and how they will be tortured, how is one supposed to know when the prophet is joking or not?

Anyway, if he was joking about that, then what about him riding on a flying donkey in the middle of the night? Was that a joke too?
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Reply #77 - December 14, 2012, 08:40 PM

Quote from: allat on December 14, 2012, 07:58 PM
He's dealing with some issues in his personal life that are taking up most of his time.

fair enough, pity though =/
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Reply #78 - December 14, 2012, 10:11 PM

Quote
Anyway, if he was joking about that, then what about him riding on a flying donkey in the middle of the night? Was that a joke too?

No! He was being metaphorical !

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Reply #79 - June 06, 2014, 02:26 PM

I just wanted to revive this thread after reading about an attractive female doing a computer science major having an incredible difficult time at university, repeatedly being put down by her fellow students, and even some professors. Despite being incredibly hard-working and smart, her fellow (male) students would put her down if she received any awards or scholarships, as they apparently were only won because she was a female.

I don't think there is much of a difference, if any in the intelligence of the sexes. Perhaps certain aspects of it, such as the variability of IQ, or in memory and spatial reasoning, but overall I think it's pretty much the same, despite what Islam will have you believe.
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Reply #80 - June 06, 2014, 05:45 PM

I think there is some evidence that suggests that men are generally, probably by a small margin, more intelligent that women IF we start characterizing intelligence by IQ tests. However, we all know that a numerical, objective value does not necessarily define an often-subjective concept such as intelligence appropriately.
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Reply #81 - June 06, 2014, 05:51 PM

But even that argument does not support what Muhammad is said to have taught. The narrations regarding women's "deficiencies" in intellect and religion are only supported by the impressive circular reasoning that their testimonies are worth half of a man's and that their periods prevent them from praying. These two restrictions that Muhammad himself made up are what are given as proof for their supposed deficiency.

It would be like a racist in 1940s America saying. "Blacks are inferior to whites. Don't you see that blacks are made to drink from lesser quality water fountains and only allowed to sit at the back of the bus? This is proof of their inferiority."
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Reply #82 - June 06, 2014, 05:52 PM

Oh, I completely agree. The circular reasoning in the Hadith made me laugh too . I just wanted to point out that the politically correct statement may not be true.
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Reply #83 - June 06, 2014, 05:58 PM

Do you have any links to the research that shows women are slightly less intelligent on IQ tests?

I've read some research that suggests men tend to overrate their own IQs whilst women generally underrate their own IQ. The same shows for both male and female descendants, when they rate their own parents intelligence. On the other hand when actual IQ tests are undertaken, there are no significant differences between the 2.

That's why I'd be interested in reading research that shows any significance in the differences and whether such research is accounting for the significant limitations to any IQ research.

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Reply #84 - June 06, 2014, 06:46 PM

Quote from: BerberElla on June 06, 2014, 05:58 PM
Do you have any links to the research that shows women are slightly less intelligent on IQ tests?

...........men tend to overrate their own IQs .........women underrate their own IQ.

That's why I'd be interested in reading research for the significant limitations to any IQ research...............

murtads are looking for research ., who care about research? when Allah made men and women, Heeeeeeeeee knew women are supposed to stay in home, make children.. cook food feed children and men.. So in a long time women staying in home bound be less intelligent than out going guys..

So allah says in The Qur'an:
Quote
Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them."

Qur'an (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them"

Qur'an (33:59) - "Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them..." Men determine how women dress.

Qur'an (33:33) - "And abide quietly in your homes..." Women are confined to their homes except when they have permission to go out.

Qur'an (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will." Wives are to be sexually available to their husbands in all ways at all times. They serve their husbands at his command. This verse is believed to refer to anal sex (see Bukhari 60:51), and was "revealed" when women complained to Muhammad about the practice. The phrase "when and how you will" means that they lost their case.

Qur'an (66:5) - "Maybe, his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins" A disobedient wife can be replaced.

off course we also have hadith and the society to support that ..So why worry about research?? more important here is to know how to do research" than doing some silly search on web.. sure we will find Islamic heroes who will say that..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tChbHU3NIM

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Reply #85 - June 06, 2014, 11:55 PM

Somehow I don't think that these so-called scholars from KSA have had much interaction with women, even those of their own family so they don't actually see the broad spectrum of personalities that women have just like men. Therefore they call back on and rely on ahadith that generalize women as flighty, emotional, irrational creatures and tars all women with this same brush.

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Reply #86 - June 07, 2014, 12:27 AM

No matter what, I am never attending a MENSA convention. Mind-numbingly boring, every time, I have heard.

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Reply #87 - June 07, 2014, 04:37 AM

Quote from: hocuspocus on June 06, 2014, 05:52 PM
Oh, I completely agree. The circular reasoning in the Hadith made me laugh too . I just wanted to point out that the politically correct statement may not be true.

I don't like political correctness.

I will agree that it's quite hard to measure something like general intelligence. You also have to take account that it may not be completely inherited and something heavily dependant on the environment (nutrition, social issues, etc.)

I think a better thing to do would be to test specific aspects of intelligence such as spatial reasoning, memory, etc.

With regards to my original post, and on the idea of affirmative action, I think I would be downright offended if I as a woman, received a scholarship for the sole reason of being a woman, rather than my abilities and achievements.
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Reply #88 - June 07, 2014, 06:34 AM

It's not about "political correctness". It's about evidence. If you make a claim that women are less intelligent than men, you had better have plenty of credible, repeatable evidence to back you up.

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Reply #89 - June 07, 2014, 06:41 AM

^Yes, that too.
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