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Theme Changer

 Topic: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion

 (Read 21612 times)
  • 12 3 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     OP - April 10, 2010, 12:18 PM

    I know most have seen this Hadith, but was just reading some tafseers on the subject and thought I'd post it anyway. No matter how anyone tries to explain this away it is pretty horrible and clearly reflects a human 7th century view of women and not a Divine view  Roll Eyes
    ‏‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي سعيد الخدري ‏ ‏قال ‏

    خرج رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏في أضحى أو فطر إلى المصلى فمر على النساء فقال يا معشر النساء ‏ ‏تصدقن فإني ‏ ‏أريتكن ‏ ‏أكثر أهل النار فقلن وبم يا رسول الله قال تكثرن ‏ ‏اللعن ‏ ‏وتكفرن ‏ ‏العشير ‏ ‏ما رأيت من ناقصات عقل ودين أذهب ‏ ‏للب ‏ ‏الرجل الحازم من إحداكن قلن وما نقصان ديننا وعقلنا يا رسول الله قال أليس شهادة المرأة مثل نصف شهادة الرجل قلن بلى قال فذلك من نقصان عقلها أليس إذا حاضت لم تصل ولم تصم قلن بلى قال فذلك من نقصان دينها ‏
          

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

    Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) on 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in mind and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
    (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301)
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #1 - April 10, 2010, 12:21 PM

    Methinks the real deficiency was in Mohammed's intelligence and religion.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #2 - April 10, 2010, 01:42 PM

    A similar one:

    Volume 2, Book 18, Number 161:

    "...The Prophet replied, "I saw Paradise and stretched my hands towards a bunch (of its fruits) and had I taken it, you would have eaten from it as long as the world remains. I also saw the Hell-fire and I had never seen such a horrible sight. I saw that most of the inhabitants were women." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! Why is it so?" The Prophet replied, "Because of their ungratefulness." It was asked whether they are ungrateful to Allah. The Prophet said, "They are ungrateful to their companions of life (husbands) and ungrateful to good deeds. If you are benevolent to one of them throughout the life and if she sees anything (undesirable) in you, she will say, 'I have never had any good from you.' "
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #3 - April 10, 2010, 01:53 PM

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Raghiaf:

    Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) on 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I am a fuckwit and could do with some help." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle?" He replied, "I am deficient in mind and religion. I couldn't invent a decent belief system if my life depended on it. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by my bullshit." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in your intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of my stupidity obvious?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in my intelligence. Isn't it true that Islam contains all sort of dumb crap?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in my religion."
    (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 69, Number 111)

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #4 - April 10, 2010, 01:57 PM

    Women are deficient in testosterone ^_^

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #5 - April 10, 2010, 01:58 PM

    Women are deficient in testosterone ^_^

    That's probably the only thing I would not like about being female :\

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #6 - April 10, 2010, 01:58 PM

    Men are deficient in nice boobies
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #7 - April 10, 2010, 02:00 PM

    Men are deficient in nice boobies

    We have them, just underdeveloped in most cases.
    So technically we could still grow some nice biological ones, give science some time Grin

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #8 - April 10, 2010, 02:08 PM

    Men are deficient in nice boobies

    Wanna see?
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #9 - April 10, 2010, 02:22 PM

    Men are deficient in nice boobies


    Not guys with man-boobs.  Smiley
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #10 - April 10, 2010, 02:34 PM

    Methinks the real deficiency was in Mohammed's intelligence and religion.

    I don't think so, I know the muzleman's intelligence and religion was deficient. Don't forget his judgement and critical thinking skillz.

    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #11 - April 10, 2010, 02:40 PM

    Not guys with man-boobs.  Smiley

    I said 'nice' boobies Wink Man-boobs aren't nice Tongue
    We have them, just underdeveloped in most cases.
    So technically we could still grow some nice biological ones, give science some time Grin

    Still deficient for the time being Tongue

    Wanna see?

    Sure cool2
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #12 - April 10, 2010, 03:28 PM

    The Commander of the Faithful (or is it Prince of the Believers?) also said something very similar in his inspirational tome the Nahj al-Balagha.

    The helpful commentary on his pronouncement at the bottom of the page is:
    Quote
    Amir al-mu'minin has said a thing which is corroborated by experiences of centuries.

    Another interesting story relating to the Gate to the City of Knowledge (peace be upon them) goes as follows. The Prophet said to 'Ali

    Quote
    that no woman will ever hate except for the one who is salaqlaqiyyah. Later, a woman who secretly hated 'Ali heard him relate this prediction and asked the meaning of the term salaqlaqiyyah. 'Ali explained that it referred to a woman who menstruated improperly. The woman was amazed at his response, for she realized that she suffered from this very physical defect. The report tells us that she immediately repented and declared that she would forever abandon her previous hatred of Ali. Ali then implored God to restore her to a normal form of menstruation, if she was truthful. This hadith does not appear in canonical Shi'ite collections and is obviously legendary in content, but it points to two curious elements of Shi'ite thought.

    Source: Maria Dakake "The Charismatic Community" (pp.217-218) quoting Ibn Shahrashub's Manaqib Al Abi Talib

    So just remember should you ever experience any DUB try and stop hating Ali and it may well clear up the problem.

    Dakake goes on to mention (p.226) that
    Quote
    The best women from Ali's perspective were those who made impeccable service to their husbands their primary form of spiritual jihad. Women's virtue lay in their remaining at home, being faithful to their husbands, and struggling against their inherent tendency toward jealousy. In one tradition, Ali states that jealousy in men is iman while jealousy in women is kufr.

    Top bloke Ali. So much better than that dastardly misogynist 'Umar (may God be pleased with him  - and curse him as well as I'm non-sectarian).

    BTW Dakake has footnoted all her observations but I couldn't be fucked writing em all out. You can search the book on Google.

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #13 - April 10, 2010, 04:02 PM

    Muhammad treating women like crap, what else new?
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #14 - April 10, 2010, 04:03 PM

    Since you brought up the topic of jealousy, here are some interesting hadiths and a story:

    The prophet Muhammad saw said 'A Dayooth will not enter Jannah.' The Sahabah asked, 'Who is a Dayooth?' Rasoolullah sallallahu alaihe wasallam said, 'A man who does not care who visits his wife (i.e. men).'

    Ibn Al-Qayyim, Rahimahullaah, said: "And the Dayyouth (the man with no jealousy over the women in his family) is the most vile of Allah's creation, and Jannah is forbidden for him, (because of his lack of Ghayrah - jealousy). http://www.hoor-al-ayn.com/docs/translations/


    This is a story I found on Ummah.com:

    On this topic, a famous historical incident is mentioned, so that males and females with a sense of honor and enthusiasm may know how the pious predecessors despised a woman unveiling her face before men, although in the following instance it was permissible to unveil the face. During the third century Hijri, the Qaadi (judge) of Rayy and Ahwaaz, Musa bin Ishaaq, sat to adjudicate people's disputes. Among the litigants was a woman who claimed five hundred dinars Mahr from her husband. The husband denied the claim. The Qaadi said to the husband, "Bring your witnesses." The husband said, "I have brought them." The Qaadi said to one of the witnesses, "Look at the wife so you may point her out during testimony." The witness stood up and said to the woman, "Stand." Upon this, the husband said, "What do you want from her?" The husband was told, "It is necessary that the witness sees your wife unveiled so that he may know that it is your wife." The husband detested his wife unveiling her face for the witnesses in public. He screamed, saying, "I make the Qaadi my witness that this Mahr of my wife is an obligation on me, and she must not unveil her face!" When the wife heard this, she thought it was wonderful that her husband disapproved of her unveiling her face before the witnesses, and was protecting her from the sight of people. She too screamed at the Qaadi, "I make you a witness that I have granted my Mahr to him, and have absolved him in this Dunyaa and the Aakhirah!" The Qaadi said to those around him, "Record this as a moral standard." - Taken from Tarbiyat Al-Awlaaad Fil Islaam

    Al-Tabari and other scholars said: Jealousy on the part of women is to be overlooked and they are not to be punished for it because it is part of their nature.
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #15 - April 10, 2010, 04:03 PM

    Were most persons not illiterate then? When I was a told I was told that it referred to literacy rates and that "intelligence" was a bad translation. I was told that during that time the men were more literate then women at the time since the women were more concerned with traditional housewife duties, it is only in the last 150 years that this has slowly started to change in the west. Even today in developing countries many are twice as literate as women.

    "There is a wide gender disparity in the literacy rate in India: adult (15+ years) literacy rates in 2009 were 76.9% for men and 54.5% for women"1>

    " in Turkey literacy rate is 96% for men and 80.4% for women, with an overall average of 88.1%.[94]  The low figures for women are mainly due to the traditional customs of the Arabs and Kurds who live in the southeastern provinces of the country".>2

    In Saudi Arabia 98.1 percent of male youths are literate, and 95.9 percent of female youths are literate.>3


    >1 http://www.unfpa.org/swp/2009/en/pdf/EN_SOWP09_ICPD.pdf
    >2 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3753582.stm
    >3 World Bank 2008.World Development Indicators/Edstats database, 2008
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #16 - April 10, 2010, 04:08 PM

    It's not literacy, they are just twisting it's meaning. Hassan can give you a better perspective since he knows Arabic.
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #17 - April 10, 2010, 04:09 PM

    Sure cool2

    Here you go!
    People tell me that I look much like Brad Pitt - please don't hate me because I am beautiful! -  48DD btw.
    Enjoy!




    This song goes well with the above pic:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VST08xjL2o
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #18 - April 10, 2010, 04:10 PM

     Cheesy
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #19 - April 10, 2010, 04:11 PM

    I know most have seen this Hadith, but was just reading some tafseers on the subject and thought I'd post it anyway. No matter how anyone tries to explain this away it is pretty horrible and clearly reflects a human 7th century view of women and not a Divine view  Roll Eyes
    ‏‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي سعيد الخدري ‏ ‏قال ‏

    خرج رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏في أضحى أو فطر إلى المصلى فمر على النساء فقال يا معشر النساء ‏ ‏تصدقن فإني ‏ ‏أريتكن ‏ ‏أكثر أهل النار فقلن وبم يا رسول الله قال تكثرن ‏ ‏اللعن ‏ ‏وتكفرن ‏ ‏العشير ‏ ‏ما رأيت من ناقصات عقل ودين أذهب ‏ ‏للب ‏ ‏الرجل الحازم من إحداكن قلن وما نقصان ديننا وعقلنا يا رسول الله قال أليس شهادة المرأة مثل نصف شهادة الرجل قلن بلى قال فذلك من نقصان عقلها أليس إذا حاضت لم تصل ولم تصم قلن بلى قال فذلك من نقصان دينها ‏
          

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

    Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) on 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in mind and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
    (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301)


    Ruqayyah Waris Maqsood reckons that Muhammad was "joking" in this hadith and was jokingly saying to some women "if you don't give alms, then most of the people in the hellfire will be women" - It really doesn't sound like he was just joking

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #20 - April 10, 2010, 04:19 PM

    No no... but but but but but but It's Just a Joke!!! Why you all think it's so bad anyways? Where's your sense of humour??

     Cheesy

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #21 - April 10, 2010, 04:23 PM

    It's not out of the question that he was joking. There was that other hilarious joke when he said to the believing woman who asked him to supplicate that she would get to heaven that old women don't go to heaven. And then she cried! Hahaha. So funny.


    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #22 - April 10, 2010, 04:32 PM

    It's not literacy, they are just twisting it's meaning. Hassan can give you a better perspective since he knows Arabic.


    If the Muslims believe that, then I don't think we should tell them what to believe. What do you think?
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #23 - April 10, 2010, 10:32 PM

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Raghiaf:

    Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) on 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I am a fuckwit and could do with some help." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle?" He replied, "I am deficient in mind and religion. I couldn't invent a decent belief system if my life depended on it. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by my bullshit." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in your intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of my stupidity obvious?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in my intelligence. Isn't it true that Islam contains all sort of dumb crap?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in my religion."
    (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 69, Number 111)


    Now for that you deserve joker of the month Oz! Cheesy
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #24 - April 10, 2010, 10:36 PM

    'Umar (may God be pleased with him  - and curse him as well as I'm non-sectarian).


    Then again perhaps I might nominate you  Cheesy
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #25 - April 10, 2010, 10:40 PM

    Narrated Abu Said Al-Raghiaf:

    Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) on 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I am a fuckwit and could do with some help." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle?" He replied, "I am deficient in mind and religion. I couldn't invent a decent belief system if my life depended on it. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by my bullshit." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in your intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of my stupidity obvious?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in my intelligence. Isn't it true that Islam contains all sort of dumb crap?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in my religion."
    (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 69, Number 111)

    Cheesy Didn't notice that was a joke till Hassan pointed it out. Good one Os! Afro
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #26 - April 10, 2010, 10:41 PM

    Were most persons not illiterate then? When I was a told I was told that it referred to literacy rates and that "intelligence" was a bad translation.


    Utter nonsense. The words are ناقصات في العقل والدين = "Deficient/Missing/Lacking in (respect of) Mind & Religion"

    It has nothing to do with literacy. Even the rest of the hadith shows that.
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #27 - April 10, 2010, 10:55 PM

    Ruqayyah Waris Maqsood reckons that Muhammad was "joking" in this hadith and was jokingly saying to some women "if you don't give alms, then most of the people in the hellfire will be women" - It really doesn't sound like he was just joking


    Ruqayyah Maqsood is a joke herself - I read her book on marriage in Islam (published by Quilliam press - started by our friend Abdul Hakeem)

    Anyway I suppose Allah was joking when he said almost the same thing in the Qur'an:

    الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ

    "Men are in charge of women because God has bestowed more one one over the other"

    From the Tafseer of Jalalayn:

    "الرجال قوامون" مسلطون "على النساء" يؤدبونهن ويأخذون على أيديهن "بما فضل الله بعضهم على بعض" أي بتفضيله لهم عليهن بالعلم والعقل والولاية وغير ذلك

    "Men are in charge of women means they rule over women, correcting them and taking charge of them because of their advantage over them in knowledge and intelligence and guardianship and other things like that..."

    Poor ikkle women dey need llowking awfter... Coz dey a bit dumb... Awwww.... Bless!

    And as another hadith goes:

    "No people will ever prosper who put a woman in charge of their affairs!"


     grin12
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #28 - April 10, 2010, 11:05 PM

    Oh Muhammad, you wily joker.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Women are Deficient in Mind and Religion
     Reply #29 - April 10, 2010, 11:06 PM

    It's not out of the question that he was joking. There was that other hilarious joke when he said to the believing woman who asked him to supplicate that she would get to heaven that old women don't go to heaven. And then she cried! Hahaha. So funny.


    LOL... yes whenever I heard that one I thought; WTF? That's funny?Huh?
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