Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


New Britain
Today at 12:30 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
January 03, 2025, 12:35 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
January 02, 2025, 12:31 AM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
December 29, 2024, 12:03 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
December 29, 2024, 11:55 AM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
December 28, 2024, 01:33 PM

News From Syria
by zeca
December 28, 2024, 12:29 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
December 27, 2024, 12:20 PM

Mo Salah
December 26, 2024, 05:30 AM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
December 25, 2024, 10:58 AM

What's happened to the fo...
December 25, 2024, 02:29 AM

Berlin car crasher
by zeca
December 21, 2024, 11:10 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: I have a debate this Sunday

 (Read 19532 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 3 4 5« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #120 - March 24, 2011, 12:34 PM



    I've described before how when Islam does dawah in the direction of other religions, its basically one superstition criticising another superstition. In such a situation, the most virulent and aggressive argument prevails, especially when conducted along the lines of the hermetically sealed self-justifying 'logic' and rhetoric of the one who asserts superiority. Islam is X Y and Z, and since Religion B is not X Y and Z, Islam wins. Thus goes the primary thrust of dawah, along with the total truth claims, the replacement theology (reverts not converts), the ideas of jahiliya, kuffar, the contempt for polytheism, the imperial mission of Islam, the appeal to base instincts of tribal triumphalism, etc etc etc

    When Muslims debate on the basis of science, atheism / agnosticism, rationalism and the corollaries of secularism, equality of all people, pluralism etc etc, their goose is well and truly cooked. The territory they debate upon leaves their gunpowder useless. Its not one superstition aggressively declaiming itself against another, using all sorts of rhetorical dawah, evasion, tu quoque, ad hominem etc.......but it finds itself up against a larger atmosphere. Its kind of like how in The War of the Worlds, the aliens shoot and kill everyone aggressively and are full of their dawah mission to triumph, but when they breathe the earths oxygen, a simple bacteria that is harmless to humankind kills them all. The atmosphere and oxygen of these universalist ideas, of science, atheism / agnosticism, rationalism and the corollaries of secularism, equality of all people, pluralism - they are the oxygen that gives life to everything, that even makes a space for people to pursue their religions and superstitions, but kills off the idiocies of the aggressive dawah of Islam.

    Thats what the perplexed, bemused, exhausted, stressed expression on the faces of these lads was, a vague recognition of this simple reality - and it is here that a template for how Islam will be de-fanged and castrated in the UK and other secular societies can be seen.

     

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #121 - March 24, 2011, 12:37 PM

    Billy, a beautiful post written with real eloquence.  It made me feel very emotional Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #122 - March 24, 2011, 12:38 PM


    Hey, your video shows you practising what I described  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #123 - March 24, 2011, 12:41 PM

    It made me feel like I am part of something beautiful, almost religious Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #124 - March 24, 2011, 12:42 PM

    kick arse post their dear Billy

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #125 - March 24, 2011, 12:44 PM

    Would be great fun though.  Besides, Hamza's approach is "does god exist" - whereas I am happy to start after that, so I suspect his arguments would fall pretty flat.

    Yes,  that is the point at which to start it from & why I always call myself agnostic if I havent established an acceptable definition of atheism first.  You cant lose from that point even if you are talking to somebody with the IQ of a turnip.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #126 - March 24, 2011, 01:14 PM

    Would be great fun though.  Besides, Hamza's approach is "does god exist" - whereas I am happy to start after that, so I suspect his arguments would fall pretty flat.


    i'm the polar opposite. i always start with the existence of god and stay there, as theological discourse is something that doesn't particularly interest me.
  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #127 - March 24, 2011, 01:17 PM

    i'm the polar opposite. i always start with the existence of god and stay there, as theological discourse is something that doesn't particularly interest me.


    Shut up and make some more videos Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #128 - March 24, 2011, 01:40 PM

    It made me feel like I am part of something beautiful, almost religious


    Mate, the only reason why Christianity has been progressively tamed in our society is because of the process described. And this process will neuter (if enacted properly, because it is not being done towards Islam yet....see next paragraph) the big two missionary faiths of Christianity and Islam, but it will, for example, over time regulate non prosletysing religions, and regulate identity politics with a sectarian impulse, to get their house in order too, because they will be shaped by the society and culture we become / have become.

    Islam often gets a free pass because Muslims, and Islamic Identity Politics have muddied the waters by seeking immunity through the ideological canard of 'Islamophobia', by claiming 'minority protection', which inhibits scrutiny, and also through the aggression expressed towards dissent. Thus through fear of violence, persecution, or of slander (being called a racist, bigot, Islamophobe etc etc), Islam gets a free pass. I am not talking about generalisations about Islam, made by the man reading the Daily Star on the Clapham Omnibus, I am talking about the specific, accurate, philosophical refutations and moral as well as logical scrutiny of Islam, its ideology and effects.

    This means that Islam is simultaneously able to project its own taboos against criticism onto non Muslims, primarily, for various reasons, via the auspices of Identity Politics pandering Leftism, whilst continuing to proseltyse, make totalising truth claims, assert itself into public life and attempt to influence the lives of individuals, effect sharia creep into our society and so on and so forth. It wants to have its cake and eat it. It wants to throw punches at others, whilst being protected from being jabbed, hooked and southpawed itself. And to an extent the degree of which can be argued about, it has been successful in doing this, in the UK and elsewhere.

    This is the situation we are in at the moment. However, in an open society, this can't go on foreever. Facilitated by the internet, this equation is slowly changing, and there will be a tipping point at some time in the future. The rules of the game are going to change. And whilst Islam will be scrutinised cleanly and rationally by non Muslims, the achilles heel of Islam (Islam has many achilles heals, but for now this will do for demonstation purposes) is the testimony, experience and scrutiny of ex Muslims. When these voices are heard, it will be game over. To use that phrase again, Islam's goose will be well and truly cooked.

    But for that to happen, things have to change on a number of fronts, including our society not being inhibited from asserting the primacy of secularism, rationalism, equality, pluralism, science as not just ideas in a salad bowl 'competing' with superstitions, but the collective organising philosophical principles of our culture and society, the very oxygen and atmosphere that makes our society's life possible.

    We'll start to see things change when that happens. I honestly believe that Islam can be de-fanged, castrated and regulated over time, but only if these principles are held to, and actively fought for, and Islam, like Christianity has been, is scrutinised, confronted, criticised, ridiculed and diminished through debate and action.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #129 - March 24, 2011, 01:40 PM


    I've described before how when Islam does dawah in the direction of other religions, its basically one superstition criticising another superstition. In such a situation, the most virulent and aggressive argument prevails, especially when conducted along the lines of the hermetically sealed self-justifying 'logic' and rhetoric of the one who asserts superiority. Islam is X Y and Z, and since Religion B is not X Y and Z, Islam wins. Thus goes the primary thrust of dawah, along with the total truth claims, the replacement theology (reverts not converts), the ideas of jahiliya, kuffar, the contempt for polytheism, the imperial mission of Islam, the appeal to base instincts of tribal triumphalism, etc etc etc

    When Muslims debate on the basis of science, atheism / agnosticism, rationalism and the corollaries of secularism, equality of all people, pluralism etc etc, their goose is well and truly cooked. The territory they debate upon leaves their gunpowder useless. Its not one superstition aggressively declaiming itself against another, using all sorts of rhetorical dawah, evasion, tu quoque, ad hominem etc.......but it finds itself up against a larger atmosphere. Its kind of like how in The War of the Worlds, the aliens shoot and kill everyone aggressively and are full of their dawah mission to triumph, but when they breathe the earths oxygen, a simple bacteria that is harmless to humankind kills them all. The atmosphere and oxygen of these universalist ideas, of science, atheism / agnosticism, rationalism and the corollaries of secularism, equality of all people, pluralism - they are the oxygen that gives life to everything, that even makes a space for people to pursue their religions and superstitions, but kills off the idiocies of the aggressive dawah of Islam.

    Thats what the perplexed, bemused, exhausted, stressed expression on the faces of these lads was, a vague recognition of this simple reality - and it is here that a template for how Islam will be de-fanged and castrated in the UK and other secular societies can be seen.

     


    Amazing!!
  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #130 - March 26, 2011, 05:28 PM

    Hey, if the debate is about Yayha's book Atlas of Creation, Richard Dawkins does a great step-by-step YT Vid debunking the ignorant and laughable (at least it would be if some peeps didnt take it as fact) claims in this book. Would be a good start for a bit of ammo for your arguments.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxGDXSJZfc


    Good luck! Let us know how you get on.


    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #131 - March 29, 2011, 09:15 AM

    Adey, it finished about a week before you posted Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #132 - March 29, 2011, 09:16 AM

    In case you are interested here is the information I promised to provide during the discussion:


    12 min : Life forms which do not breathe oxygen
    http://tinyurl.com/HydrogenLifeOnEarth

    13 min: Proof of the introduction of free oxygen
    http://tinyurl.com/WhereOxygenCameFrom

    55 min: The bible calls the sky a canopy
    Isaiah 40:22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

    The Quran talks about the heavens being guarded WITH shooting stars, not AGAINST shooting stars:

    [067:005] We have embellished the heaven nearest to this world with (numerous) lamps (the stars). We have made this heaven (a means) to bombard the Shaitan with missiles, to drive them away. For them, We have prepared a punishment by the blazing fire.

    This is a canopy WELL GUARDED. It is the presence of shooting stars that is the guard, not the guard which protects us from shooting stars as you claimed.

    58 Min: Pharaoh

    1) Ramses II was found in 1881, it was Merneptah found in 1898.

    2) Ramses II was mummified, this book explains how his organs were removed and his body preserved with Natron. In fact just about any book on there about Ramses II will tell you the same thing.

    http://tinyurl.com/RamsesIIOrgans


    3) Merneptah/Merenptah read page 55
    http://tinyurl.com/MerenptahsOrgan

    It says his penis was damaged during the embalming process. In fact Bucaille himself describes the body as "The mummified body of Merneptah" (read 5. Pharaoh Merneptah's Mummy) after reading the book of Elliot Smith "The Royal Mummies"

    http://tinyurl.com/MerenptahMummified


    4) Bucaille's 180 degree u-turn on the Pharaoh

    1st book : Quran and science
    In this Bucaille says "this examination will be carried out by Professor Mignot and Doctor Durigon. I regret to say that definitive pronouncements cannot be made by the time this book goes to print"

    and then
    "He most probably died either from drowning, according to the Scriptural narrations, or from very violent shocks preceding the moment when he was drowned-or both at once."


    http://tinyurl.com/BucailleConcludesDrowning



    2nd book : Moses and Pharaoh in the Bible, Quran and history

    "mummy showed that the corpse didn't remain in water for a long time, as it didn't show any signs of complete damage"

    Someone has quoted it here arguing in favour of the Quran

    http://tinyurl.com/PharaohCanSwim


    Book 1: Water damage will prove the Quran right
    Book 2: Lack of water damage proves the Quran right


    1 hour 17
    You claim that evidence of mummification will show this is not a miracle. I assume you now no longer consider this to be a miracle

    :-)

    1 hour 25 min Haman

    Here is an article researched by an atheist I know from Germany.
    http://tinyurl.com/HamanHoax

    Search for the word "Amun".

    Additionally, there is also a Haman in the bible (Book of Ester) who was adviser to the king of Persia. I find it much more credible that Muhammad knew of a man named "Haman" who was an adviser to a leader of a country and confused them when he made up the story.

    1 hour 42 : God of the bible ordering the killing of children.

    1 Samuel 15:3 - Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

    1 hour 48
    Variations of Lamusiuna : Abundance, ample, capacity, spacious, encompasing

    http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=wsE#(51:47:5)


    1 hour 52
    Naik pretending evaporation is mentioned many times in the Quran
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymf5MdwK3M8


    Stuff for you to answer
    1 hour 54
    Did god create all creatures all at once, or many creations at different times, and from which source do you determine your answer?

    1 hour 56
    Why would god create animals with eyes that do not work.
    http://tinyurl.com/BlindMoleRat

    There are also various creatures which have eyes, but in caves have lost those eyes.

    1 hour 57
    Baleen whales grow teeth during embryology, but they disappear before they are born
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baleen_whale

    Why would god give them teeth they cannot use (in the womb) and then remove them before they are born and can use them?

    Is there a point to doing this, or does god do pointless things?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #133 - March 29, 2011, 10:42 AM

    I had a quick look at the contents page of the google books preview for Bucaille's book on Pharoah annd Moses:

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vsYPT9zZy3cC&printsec=frontcover&dq=bucaille+pharaoh&hl=en&ei=MbSRTe3NLIeHhQfAoeiGDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Page 201 seems to have a good quote about Marenptah (that's how he spells it) if you want to give an exact reference:

    "Moreover we took a small sample of muscle from the mummy. When it was examined under the microscope, the persistence of certain characteristics of the muscular fibrillae led the specialists to conclude that the body could not have remained a long time in the water-otherwise such details would have disappeared. Such a finding is to be put in parallel with the teaching of the Qur'an, which says that the body had been saved the day of the event. (sura 10, verse 92)"

  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #134 - March 29, 2011, 10:44 AM

    @nj7

    This is exactly what I was talking about. In the first book he anticipated the lab results would show signs of drowning.  Drawing a conclusion before the results were even back, how unprofessional!  He said that signs of drowning would prove the Quran right.

    In the next book when there were no signs of drowning he concluded that this proved the Quran right.

    Worthless!

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: I have a debate this Sunday
     Reply #135 - March 30, 2011, 08:03 AM

    Therationalizer you are amazing your dedication to disproving these people and exposing the truth is commendable! And your willingness to fact check and go so in depth is really something special! Keep doing what your doing!
  • Previous page 1 ... 3 4 5« Previous thread | Next thread »