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Theme Changer

 Topic: The curious case of Miriam and her brother

 (Read 38518 times)
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  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #60 - May 29, 2010, 06:15 PM

    Quote
    debunker
    @ Marie

    Now, now.. your precious New Testament, curiously enough, does NOT mention the names of Jesus' grandparents! He is supposedly the most important man who walked the Earth, and not a single mention of the names of his grandparents (this is especially interesting given that the Bible never tires of boring us with long geneologies).


    Yes there is a mention of Jesus's grandparents. There are two genealogies in the New Testament. One is in the the first chapter of the Gospel of Matthew and the second is in the third chapter of the Gospel of Luke.

    Quote
    I don't need to convince you of anything... I challenge you to refute any argument I made so far... try, if you dare, to refute my long post in the previous page!


    Well I will begin with the Hadith Sahih Muslim 5326:

    "When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me:  You read "Sister of Harun", (i.e. Mary), in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born well before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger I asked him about that, and he said:  "The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them.""  

    You stated before reference to Mary as the sister of Aaron might have a metaphorical rather then a literal meaning. But here is a Hadith where Muhammed is being confronted about this statement and it the Christiains of Najran literally thought he said Mary was the sister of Aaron.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #61 - May 29, 2010, 06:28 PM

    Quote
    c- MOST importantly, according to the Quran, Mary was an orphan and was raised by Zachariah [4]. Moses' sister (whose name was NOT mantioned in the Quran), on the other hand, was NOT an orphan. In fact, her mother later gave birth to Moses and she herself talked to Pharoah's wife to let her mother breast feed her brother Moses.[2]

    So Mary, the orphan raised by Zachariah, is NOT the same girl who talked to Pharoah's wife for the sake of her infant brother, Moses. So Aaron mentioned in the verse cannot be the biological brother of Mary since he was Moses' brother and Moses cannot be Mary's brother as implied by the Quranic verses (most importantly, the fact that she was an orphan).


    debunker Christians do not believe Mary was an orphen.
    Quote
    2- Others might also "speculate" that the name Aaron was NOT exclusive to one person, and it was a common name that was used throughout the history of the Israelites. According to this speculation Aaron just happened to be a "redundant" name given to Mary's biological brother. But Mary was an orphan [4] whoever Aaron was, he couldn't have been a "biological" brother.


    Mary did not have a brother.








  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #62 - May 29, 2010, 06:40 PM

    Debunker shoots a sly smile at Marie
    Moves in closely

    Talks in her ear, places his hand on hers.

    Drops his drawers.

    Whips out his cock.

    Says "Yeah, baby, you see this? Get some Muslim lovin, baby! FUCK YEAH!!!"


    lol
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #63 - May 29, 2010, 06:43 PM

    Quote
    debunker  

    Of course it is! anyway, how does that refute my argument? Oh wait.. I remember you once admitted at FFI you're a bit slow.... forgive me, my bad... next time I'll write things   s. l. o. w. l. y   f. o. r   y. o. u.


    I maybe slow but at least I am not sticking my ass up in the air fives times a day up at the great whorehouse ( Islamic heaven ) up in the sky.
    Quote
    He didn't state it... he said Satan took him to the highest mountain so that he could see all the kingdoms of the earth! what a retard this Biblcal Jesus was... didn't he know that even atop the highest mountain, you can't see the entire earth, because it's round? and that coming from non other than the Son of Yahweh Himself! Didn't His Daddy send him to some heavenly school or something?  And what's this crap about Satan seducing the Son of Yahweh? It's like when an outcast comes to the Crown Prince and offers him his own kingdom! Effing retard this Biblical Jesus was!


    Please explain to me how this is saying Jesus said the earth was flat?

    By the way at least Jesus recognized it was Satan who took him up to the mountain, unlike Muhammed who mistook Satan as Allah and read the satanic verses given to him.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #64 - May 29, 2010, 06:49 PM

    At least Jesus recognize it was satan taking him up to the highest mountain, unlike Muhammed who mistook satan as Allah and revealed the satanic verses.


    So, you are saying Jesus could recognise Satan, but that he (Jesus/God) was incapable of realising it is impossible to see every city on Earth regardless of how high your mountain is?  He just proved to you that the Bible is bollocks in a single sentence, it is irrefutable, why can't you accept it?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #65 - May 29, 2010, 06:56 PM

    Quote
    Hassan
    I'm curious why you said Muhammad was too drunk to know what he was saying?

    Was that a serious comment or just an off the cuff meaningless snipe at Muhammad?


    It was an off the cuff meaningless snipe at Muhammed.

    Quote
    But, hey, carry on laughing and making snide comments about Islam. When we ex-Muslims see such love, integrity, and good character from you orthodox/literalist Christians it makes us all want to convert so that Jesus can save us from the eternal torment you believe your God has waiting for us if we don't.


    I ain't no saint and I freely admit that.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #66 - May 29, 2010, 07:07 PM

    The story told in the Quran, pictures MARYAM (Jesus' mother) as an orphan... and the language used by her mother, when she conceived her, strongly suggests that MARYAM was a first born, an only child... thus, no siblings.

    like I said, if they have no problem with the idea that a lowly outcast can offer the Crown Prince his own kingdom, then they surely would have no problem with Jesus needing a very high mountain to see all the world.

    Do you have a problem with the ant in the King Solomon story  whistling2 

    Cant you at least see you both exhibit traits of the same phenomenon?  Let me guess she will disagree, and so will you.

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  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #67 - May 29, 2010, 07:22 PM

    Oh well, if people are willing to believe that an outcast has the power to offer the crown prince his own kingdom  wacko, then I guess they would be able to believe the high mountain bit.


    But from a completely objective point of view...I could offer you 10 billion pounds.  There is a big difference between offering and delivering.  I got the impression that in the story Satan was trying to tempt/trick Jesus. Therefore Jesus only needed to accept, Satan didn't need to deliver.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #68 - May 29, 2010, 07:29 PM

    So, you are saying Jesus could recognise Satan, but that he (Jesus/God) was incapable of realising it is impossible to see every city on Earth regardless of how high your mountain is?  He just proved to you that the Bible is bollocks in a single sentence, it is irrefutable, why can't you accept it?


    Because there are a couple explanations for that verse.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #69 - May 29, 2010, 07:40 PM

    Because there are a couple explanations for that verse.


    1: If a verse has more than 1 meaning then the meaning of the Bible is not clear.
    2: What are these "excuses"?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #70 - May 29, 2010, 07:57 PM

    Here is one explanation:

    But we accept what tradition tells us. There is, to the west of Jericho, a mountain that rears its peak very high. Tradition has it that Satan led Jesus to this peak and showed him all the countries of the world. If we climb this mountain we can view all the neighbouring countries. This mountain is known as the "Mount of Temptation." '

    http://www.datanumeric.com/vlm/07-97/8.htm

    Here are other explanations:

    2. The temptation to take the kingdoms to Himself would have been far more powerful if it came from within Christ. Jesus’ mind would have been full of Scripture, and in His afflicted state of mind, caused by His fasting, it would be tempting to misinterpret passages to enable Him to use them to justify taking the easy way out of the situation He was in.

    Standing on a high mountain recalls Ezekiel being shown what the Kingdom would be like from a high mountain (Ez. 40:2), and John, seeing “the holy Jerusalem” from “a great and high mountain” (Rev. 21:10). Jesus saw the world’s kingdoms as they would be in the future (Lk. 4: 5), i.e. in the Kingdom, when “the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ” (Rev. 11:15). Maybe He would have thought of Moses at the end of 40 years’ wilderness wandering (cp. His forty days) looking out at the Promised Land (the Kingdom) from Mount Nebo. It is emphasized in Daniel (Dan. 4:17, 25, 32; 5:21) that “the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will”; Jesus would have known that only God, not anyone else, could give Him the kingdom. Therefore it would not have been much of a temptation if an evil monster claimed to be able to give Jesus the kingdom, when He knew only God had the power. However, Jesus knew that it was His (the Father’s) good pleasure to give Jesus the kingdom, and it must have been suggested by the “devil” within Jesus that He could take that kingdom immediately. After all, He could have reasoned, God has delegated all authority to me in prospect (Jn. 5:26-27), to the extent that He had power to both give His life and take it again (Jn. 10:18), although ultimately all power was given unto Him only after His death and resurrection (Matt. 28:18). Jer. 27:5-8 and Jer. 34:5-8 in the LXX speak of how God has made the earth and will give it (Gk. doso) to whomever He wishes; and these are the very words of the 'satan' in Luke's record: "I will give (doso) it to you... I give it to whomever I wish". One could say that this is a way of explaining how the Lord Jesus was tempted to 'play God' and seek equality with God- which temptation He refused (as Paul points out in Phil. 2).

    http://www.realdevil.info/5-8.htm
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #71 - May 29, 2010, 08:04 PM

    It was an off the cuff meaningless snipe at Muhammed.

    I ain't no saint and I freely admit that.



    Yes, I can see that.

    No doubt you will say one shouldn't judge Christianity by the behaviour of Christians. (Just like Muslims claim we should not judge Islam by the behaviour of Muslims.)

    It's amazing how similar you Fundie Christians are to Muslims.

    Well, don't worry - I don't judge either Islam nor Christianity by their followers.

    I judge it by what's in their books.

    And since the God of your Bible tells people to kill suckling babies, stone women found not to be virgins on their wedding night, slaughter whole towns because they don't worship him and tortures them eternally if they don't believe in him... Then I really don't need to know any more.

    But please carry on telling the world how stupid Islam is - I find your inability to see your hypocrisy amusing.

    Then again since you believe in a genocidal, baby-killing psycho - I can fully understand why you'd rather direct your energy towards attacking another religion so as to divert attention away from your own.

    It's an age old strategy - defend your pile of shit by saying someone else's pile of shit stinks more! - Yet another similarity with Muslims  Wink

    Carry on!  Afro
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #72 - May 29, 2010, 08:04 PM

    So in short

    1: A factually incorrect answer
    2: An answer of verbosity designed to break your will to know the answer before reaching the end, and ultimately providing no answer.

    There is no way you can see all the cities of the world from a mountain of ANY height.  Surely you can see this is incorrect?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #73 - May 29, 2010, 08:10 PM

    lol... also you gotta love the way Fundie Christians refuse to allow metaphorical and other interpretations for the Qur'an - yet give them left, right and centre for the Bible.

    Awwww... Bless them!
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #74 - May 29, 2010, 08:22 PM

    So in short

    1: A factually incorrect answer
    2: An answer of verbosity designed to break your will to know the answer before reaching the end, and ultimately providing no answer.

    There is no way you can see all the cities of the world from a mountain of ANY height.  Surely you can see this is incorrect?


    Sorry Rationalizer, but I believe in the first explanation given:

    But we accept what tradition tells us. There is, to the west of Jericho, a mountain that rears its peak very high. Tradition has it that Satan led Jesus to this peak and showed him all the countries of the world. If we climb this mountain we can view all the neighbouring countries. This mountain is known as the "Mount of Temptation." '

    I know some people who visited Israel and have described what the mountain regions are like. One of them actually climbed up the mountain near Jericho.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #75 - May 29, 2010, 08:23 PM

    You would not be able to see the entire world even from Mt Everest. Forget the fact that the Earth is not flat.This is so ridiculous. How can you believe in this?

    Please check these links:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monastery_of_the_Temptation

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_of_Temptation



    Monastery_of_the_Temptation overlooking Jericho



    Mount of Temptation:


    Absolute utter bollocks. Grow up!

  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #76 - May 29, 2010, 08:25 PM

    So Lut was considered a pious person and had his life spared despite offering his daughters to be gang banged by the entire men folk of the village?  Because gang raping women is "more lawful" than two men consenting to homosexuality?


    It's like someone telling you, "I'll chop off your nose" and you reply back, "I'd rather you poke out my eyes!"... it sounds like: "oh please don't!"

    Quote
    The choice of Aaron always confused me, but it still makes as little sense if they were saying "oh pious person akin to Aaron" because again why would they not use the more prominent character Moses?  It's just like naming the least known member of a pop group Smiley  That's why I assumed she must have had a biological brother named Aaron, it made the most sense.


    you didn't read my first post regarding this... the only acceptable speculation (against which there is no evidence at all) is that Aaron must have been a well-known man who lived in her time.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #77 - May 29, 2010, 08:26 PM

    Sorry Rationalizer, but I believe in the first explanation given:

    But we accept what tradition tells us. There is, to the west of Jericho, a mountain that rears its peak very high. Tradition has it that Satan led Jesus to this peak and showed him all the countries of the world. If we climb this mountain we can view all the neighbouring countries. This mountain is known as the "Mount of Temptation." '

    I know some people who visited Israel and have described what the mountain regions are like. One of them actually climbed up the mountain near Jericho.


    So, can you explain how from Jericho it is possible to see a city on the exact opposite side of the globe?  Considering the Earth is not flat, and that light can only travel in a straight line this is actually impossible - you do know that, don't you? So why accept a bogus explanation?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #78 - May 29, 2010, 08:27 PM

    It's like someone telling you, "I'll chop off your nose" and you reply back, "I'd rather you poke out my eyes!"... it sounds like: "oh please don't!"


    Hmmm, I don't think so.  It's more like
    "Can we come and have some cock and bum fun with your new friends?"
    "I'd rather you gang raped my daughters"

    I cannot see how this man was considered "pious" enough to be saved by God, can you?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #79 - May 29, 2010, 08:29 PM

    Yes there is a mention of Jesus's grandparents. There are two genealogies in the New Testament. One is in the the first chapter of the Gospel of Matthew and the second is in the third chapter of the Gospel of Luke.


    Marie, my love, I read these geneoglogies and NO mention of the names of the *immediate* grandparents of Jesus... btw, did you know that the Biblical Jesus came from a bloodline of INCEST?

    Quote
    Well I will begin with the Hadith Sahih Muslim 5326:

    You stated before reference to Mary as the sister of Aaron might have a metaphorical rather then a literal meaning. But here is a Hadith where Muhammed is being confronted about this statement and it the Christiains of Najran literally thought he said Mary was the sister of Aaron.


    Ummmm, I already answered that in my response to Winston.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #80 - May 29, 2010, 08:30 PM

    Hmmm, I don't think so.  It's more like
    "Can we come and have some cock and bum fun with your new friends?"
    "I'd rather you gang raped my daughters"

    I cannot see how this man was considered "pious" enough to be saved by God, can you?


    I already gave you my answer regarding this.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #81 - May 29, 2010, 08:30 PM

    QueenIsabel - what is it you want to achieve by attacking Islam?

    I mean what is your purpose? What is it you want Muslims to do? (Die? Leave Islam? Become Christians?)

    Honestly.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #82 - May 29, 2010, 08:31 PM

    lol... also you gotta love the way Fundie Christians refuse to allow metaphorical and other interpretations for the Qur'an - yet give them left, right and centre for the Bible.

    Awwww... Bless them!


    The last time I checked, Muslims interprete passages in the Quran literally and it seems they have done so since the beginning of Islam.

    From what I understand this whole idea of allowing allegorical interpretation of the Quran is a recent invention.

    Too bad they don't interprete the Quran metaphorically. It would have prevented so much bloodshed.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #83 - May 29, 2010, 08:32 PM

    Marie, my love, I read these geneoglogies and NO mention of the names of the *immediate* grandparents of Jesus... btw, did you know that the Biblical Jesus came from a bloodline of INCEST?

    Ummmm, I already answered that in my response to Winston.


    So did all of us if you believe in Adam and Eve and Noah. So what's so strange about that?
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #84 - May 29, 2010, 08:34 PM

    debunker Christians do not believe Mary was an orphen.


    you know what's so funny? you guys always, always think Muslims should take your sources as credible... or as indisputable references. Well, Guess what? We don't! Ta dah!
      
    Quote
    Mary did not have a brother.


    I never said she did... concentrate a little Marie!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #85 - May 29, 2010, 08:35 PM

    The last time I checked, Muslims interprete passages in the Quran literally and it seems they have done so since the beginning of Islam.


    Then you need to check again. (The Qur'an even says that some parts are allegorical)

    From what I understand this whole idea of allowing allegorical interpretation of the Quran is a recent invention.


    Then your understanding is wrong.

    Too bad they don't interprete the Quran metaphorically. It would have prevented so much bloodshed.


    Yes, if only Muslims could have behaved like Christians throughout history.
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #86 - May 29, 2010, 08:35 PM

    The last time I checked, Muslims interprete passages in the Quran literally and it seems they have done so since the beginning of Islam.

    From what I understand this whole idea of allowing allegorical interpretation of the Quran is a recent invention.

    Too bad they don't interprete the Quran metaphorically. It would have prevented so much bloodshed.


    You do realise that was the what Christians also did before the Enlightenment, dont you?

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  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #87 - May 29, 2010, 08:37 PM

    And even if more Muslims are now interpreting more of the Qur'an metaphorically - why try to stop them and tell them they are wrong?

    Do you want them to be literalists?
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #88 - May 29, 2010, 08:37 PM

    The last time I checked, Muslims interprete passages in the Quran literally and it seems they have done so since the beginning of Islam.

    From what I understand this whole idea of allowing allegorical interpretation of the Quran is a recent invention.

    Too bad they don't interprete the Quran metaphorically. It would have prevented so much bloodshed.



    Yeah I know what you mean. I am glad Christians have also interpreted the Bible metaphorically because God knows we haven't had these incidents committed in the name of Baby Jesus:

    Witch killings Africa
    Abortion clinics blowing up, murdering doctors
    Ku Klux Klan
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
    Catholic/Protestants violence in Northern Ireland
    Mass murders of Muslims and Christians by Christians in Yugoslavia
    Violent attacks against homosexuals
    The Vatican Ring of Bum-Raping Priests
    Vatican Church telling their followers that condoms does not prevent AIDS and should not be used

     


    Not to mention these classics:

    Spanish Inquisition
    Crusades
    Conquistadors
    Slavery
  • Re: The curious case of Miriam and her brother
     Reply #89 - May 29, 2010, 08:38 PM

    I already gave you my answer regarding this.


    About being poked in the eye being better than having your nose cut off? Do you really think that consensual same gender sex is worse than gang raping women?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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