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 Topic: One argument to disprove the Quran

 (Read 32556 times)
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  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #30 - June 13, 2010, 12:42 AM
    And Allah knows best.
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #31 - June 13, 2010, 12:53 AM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 12, 2010, 11:50 PM
    Yusuf Ali's translation is BS.

    [16:93]
    For if God had willed, He could have made you one community, but He leads astray whom He will and guides whom He will, and you will surely be questioned about what you used to do.

    There's a serious chicken and egg problem with this. Does Allah's willing people to go astray come first or does the person's choosing to go astray come first?

    If the person exercises a choice to disbelieve, is that their fault or is it the fault of pre-determined circumstances over which they had no control?

    I found that strange too when I was a Muslim.  Islam is full of contradictions and I knew that trying to untangle the contradictions was a waste of time and a mug's game.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #32 - June 13, 2010, 01:03 AM
    Great minds have been wasted on religion. Countless of scholars and theologians. Their intellect could have benefited us directly instead of sewing together the loose seams of religious scripture.
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #33 - June 13, 2010, 01:54 AM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 12, 2010, 11:50 PM
    Yusuf Ali's translation is BS.

    Why exactly? Which translation do you consider to be the most accurate?

    Quote from: Zebedee on June 12, 2010, 11:50 PM
    [16:93]
    For if God had willed, He could have made you one community, but He leads astray whom He will and guides whom He will, and you will surely be questioned about what you used to do.

    How does this affect my argument? The wording is a little different, but the meaning is the same - god actively leads people astray, and then questions them as if he had nothing to do with it. This is a god who enjoys fucking with people.

    Quote from: Zebedee on June 12, 2010, 11:50 PM
    There's a serious chicken and egg problem with this. Does Allah's willing people to go astray come first or does the person's choosing to go astray come first?

    If the person exercises a choice to disbelieve, is that their fault or is it the fault of pre-determined circumstances over which they had no control?

    There's no problem here whatsoever, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from, because it's pretty damn clear to me. God actively creates a division by deliberately and arbitrarily leading people astray, ultimately sending them to be eternally tortured for "sins" that he compelled them to commit. It's worse than entrapment for fuck's sake.
    You need to read this book.
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #34 - June 13, 2010, 02:01 AM
    Hey! You don't like Allah's plan you can go to... Oh right. Nevermind.
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #35 - June 13, 2010, 05:32 AM
    Can someone please explain to me what a ceiling cat is? lol
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #36 - June 13, 2010, 05:40 AM
    Ceiling Cat is a lolcat parody of god.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #37 - June 13, 2010, 08:25 AM
    Basement Cat will reign over the Earth for a thousand years!
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #38 - June 13, 2010, 08:35 AM
    Quote from: Godot on June 13, 2010, 01:54 AM
    Why exactly? Which translation do you consider to be the most accurate?

    How does this affect my argument? The wording is a little different, but the meaning is the same - god actively leads people astray, and then questions them as if he had nothing to do with it. This is a god who enjoys fucking with people.

    There's no problem here whatsoever, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from, because it's pretty damn clear to me. God actively creates a division by deliberately and arbitrarily leading people astray, ultimately sending them to be eternally tortured for "sins" that he compelled them to commit. It's worse than entrapment for fuck's sake.


    Yusuf Ali's translation is an interpretation, not a strict translation. A number of verses are made to look better, like the ones that talk about  big-titted hoories, the earth/heavens creation contradiction, the verses that talk about how Allah misguides people, etc. The most loyal to the original Arabic, from what I've seen, is the Aal al-Bayt translation.

    And I don't think what I wrote there does affect your argument. But Muslims may respond with this verse:

    [2:26]
    God is not ashamed to strike a similitude even of a gnat, or anything above it; as for the believers, they know it is the truth from their Lord; but as for disbelievers, they say, 'What did God desire by this for a similitude?' Thereby, He leads many astray and thereby He guides many; and thereby He leads none astray except the wicked.

    Which is why I posed the questions that I did.

  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #39 - June 13, 2010, 11:29 AM
    OK can somebody explain the rest of that verse?
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #40 - June 13, 2010, 11:43 AM
    [52:44]
    And if they were to see a fragment of the heaven falling, they would say: ‘A heap of clouds

    lol I just saw this check it out, the chapter its from is pretty good.
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #41 - June 13, 2010, 11:44 AM

    [52:49]
    and glorify Him at night and at the receding of the stars.


    This can be metaphorical I guess, but it can also be literal. Stars do not recede lol
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #42 - June 13, 2010, 03:03 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 13, 2010, 08:35 AM
    And I don't think what I wrote there does affect your argument. But Muslims may respond with this verse:

    [2:26]
    God is not ashamed to strike a similitude even of a gnat, or anything above it; as for the believers, they know it is the truth from their Lord; but as for disbelievers, they say, 'What did God desire by this for a similitude?' Thereby, He leads many astray and thereby He guides many; and thereby He leads none astray except the wicked.

    If they respond by pointing out a contradiction in their own holy text, they've done my work for me.
    You need to read this book.
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #43 - June 13, 2010, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 13, 2010, 11:29 AM
    OK can somebody explain the rest of that verse?


    You mean 2:26?

    The unbelievers would mock the Qur'an's usage of small things, like gnats, spiders, or whatever, to illustrate points. This verse is a refutation of them, simply saying that Allah uses whatever he wants as a metaphor to communicate with the believers, and the believers understand it, unlike the unthinking unbelievers.
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #44 - June 13, 2010, 09:55 PM
    “Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses – We will drive them into the Fire.  Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment.  Indeed, God is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.” (4:56)
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #45 - June 13, 2010, 10:07 PM
    [4:82]
    What, do they not ponder the Koran? If it had been from other than God surely they would have found in it much inconsistency.

    Ironically, this verse itself contains an error/logical fallacy.

    By the Qur'an's 'logic,' any other book that is without contradiction is the Word of God.
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #46 - June 13, 2010, 10:23 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 13, 2010, 10:07 PM
    [4:82]
    What, do they not ponder the Koran? If it had been from other than God surely they would have found in it much inconsistency.

    Ironically, this verse itself contains an error/logical fallacy.

    By the Qur'an's 'logic,' any other book that is without contradiction is the Word of God.


    I like the way Abdunoor says, regarding this verse:

    "The Qur'an has passed the guilty verdict upon itself!"
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #47 - June 13, 2010, 10:37 PM
    Yes.

    Not only does the Qur'an contain discrepancy, this verse itself is, in numerous ways, a perfect example of that.

    The verses of the Qur'an are indeed bursting with nuance!
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #48 - June 13, 2010, 10:43 PM
    I don't really think we can prove or disprove the Quran  Huh?
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #49 - June 13, 2010, 10:48 PM
    Oh yes we can.  By contradictions & scientific anomolies.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #50 - June 13, 2010, 11:00 PM
    As well as criticising the Quran, we should ask Muslims to think about how absurd the idea of a personal, creator God is.  It seems most Muslims are prepared to play by the rules of science, hence all the 'scientific miracles' bullshit.  Well, science considers the idea of a personal, creator God absurd.


    Plus there's the inherent contradiction in the attributes of God.
    See this passage from Richard Dawkins’ The God Delusion:

    "Incidentally, it has not escaped the notice of logicians that omniscience and omnipotence are mutually incompatible. If God is omniscient, he must already know how he is going to intervene to change the course of history using his omnipotence. But that means he can’t change his mind about his intervention, which means he is not omnipotent."  (pp. 77-78)
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #51 - June 13, 2010, 11:03 PM
    damn you have a good point, well I was hoping I figured everything out and that religion is right but I'm not sure anymore :-/.
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #52 - June 13, 2010, 11:09 PM
    Quote from: nugzy on June 13, 2010, 10:43 PM
    I don't really think we can prove or disprove the Quran  Huh?


    Well, if the Qur'an resorts to logically fallacious arguments and statements then I'd certainly say that that disqualifies it from being the word of an omniscient God.
  • Re: One sentence to disprove the Quran
     Reply #53 - June 14, 2010, 01:09 AM
    Quote from: TheLastKnight on June 01, 2010, 05:10 PM
    I like 2:2.

    But this is wrong because there are a number of disagreements about what the Quran actually means.
    In other words there IS doubt, so 2:2 is false. Since 2:2 is false, the Quran is false.

    I also like the fact that it's right at the beginning. It's basically the first factual statement the Quran makes - and it's demonstrably wrong.

    this is gr8, i'll use this one too Smiley
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #54 - June 14, 2010, 01:18 AM
    That one is awesome actually. Shoots itself in the gonads pretty much on the first page. Can't ask for more than that.  dance
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #55 - June 14, 2010, 02:42 AM
    Isn't it amazing....that anyone believes this stuff.

    Its something I will never understand.
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #56 - June 14, 2010, 07:13 AM
    Quote from: Godot on June 13, 2010, 03:03 PM
    If they respond by pointing out a contradiction in their own holy text, they've done my work for me.



    Yes, I know right....and that happens so often, yet it can still be next to impossible to break though the cognitive dissonance....They'll just blankly stare at you and say...but it says blah blah blah
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #57 - June 15, 2010, 03:24 PM
    I consider every single ayat  that needs explaining..as in a Muslim will say...you have to know the "context" of that ayat...what was happening at that time and the reason for it etc etc blah blah blah. If it needs explaining then it isnt clear cut..if it isnt clear cut then its confusing...if its confusing then it cant be the word of god...because one of the arguments of the Quran is that its clear and straightforward for anyone willing to see.

    Guess we are ALL blind cause we all require explanations to understand it...even Muslims.  Huh?
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #58 - June 15, 2010, 06:58 PM
    Lol, no kidding...I always liked how there is a whole sura devoted to cursing some seemingly random guy (and his wife for some reason)
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: One argument to disprove the Quran
     Reply #59 - June 15, 2010, 07:13 PM
    Quote from: coolred38 on June 15, 2010, 03:24 PM
    I consider every single ayat  that needs explaining..as in a Muslim will say...you have to know the "context" of that ayat...what was happening at that time and the reason for it etc etc blah blah blah. If it needs explaining then it isnt clear cut..if it isnt clear cut then its confusing...if its confusing then it cant be the word of god...because one of the arguments of the Quran is that its clear and straightforward for anyone willing to see.

    Guess we are ALL blind cause we all require explanations to understand it...even Muslims.  Huh?

    +1

    Plus if everyone tried to interpret the Quran for themselves, (instead of reading a scholar's interpretation), they would come up with all kinds of different interpretations, which is not what Muslims would want, of course.   hehehehe
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
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