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 Topic: The Official World Cup Thread

 (Read 111301 times)
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  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #660 - June 25, 2010, 10:54 PM

    Yeah but HO is English.
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #661 - June 25, 2010, 11:11 PM

    Not taking the piss at all IA, just that I can see beyond a given nationality, just like I'm not taking the piss if I think Andy Murray (okay he is Scottish but branded British for us English!) will not win Wimbledon and I really hope to see a Federer/Nadal final.

    I also lived there, loved it, have a good bunch of German friends and it is just so much more better supporting them over England where one bites their nails until they don't have any nails left on their hands or feet!

    Germany is on average the best world cup team, because they play good football. Just like Federer is amazing ... because he plays amazing tennis.
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #662 - June 25, 2010, 11:15 PM

    Cool.
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #663 - June 25, 2010, 11:32 PM

    Not cool. Not cool as long as there's one British WWII vet or Blitz survivor alive. It's poor fuckin taste to be a UK citizen, in the UK cheering on the German national soccer team. It's even poorer taste considering that England is a perennial underdog, while Germany is a powerhouse amongst the European teams.

    Sorry, this ain't anti-German shit, I'm cool with the German people, I'm even cool with their soccer team, but for people in Allied nations to be cheering them on before the WWII generation has even passed is both poor taste and sad, quite frankly, that people don't value the feelings of those who survived that nasty era.

    fuck you
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #664 - June 25, 2010, 11:37 PM

    Q. If you say you are cool with the football team then why aren't you cool with cheering for the football team?

    It's not the same country anymore or climate, or people for that matter. It's false dichotomy between choosing to cheer for football team/implicitly approving of Germany's WW2 history and not cheering for football team/disapproving of WW2 history.

    You can cheer for team and yet disapprove of the WW2 history. And still have respect for the veterans.

    I know you know this is an emotional argument but I'm just throwing my two cents.
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #665 - June 25, 2010, 11:46 PM

    When I was there a few years ago I don't think I met any WWII generation people (people born before 1946 I assume you mean Q-Man?), unless they were passers by who'd tell me my German wasn't as rubbish as I thought it was.

    I understand where you are coming from, I really do Q-Man, but I think you have to understand Germany is a very different place today, and the people are so coy waving a German flag in Germany is considered nationalism by many Germans even (!).

    Germany is the powerhouse of the European economy, the biggest GDP and exporter in Europe, single- handedly (more or less) trying to stabalize the Euro and for people to equate them with 1946 in this day and age is not the right approach.

    I read an article just today on a Londonder hopeing England will lose:
    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23849097-minds-boggle-as-sexual-prose-just-gets-worse.do

    Anways, this is a discussion on football, so, guess we agree to disagree on this. No more discussion from me on this issue. (but feel free to make a point)
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #666 - June 25, 2010, 11:48 PM

    Not cool. Not cool as long as there's one British WWII vet or Blitz survivor alive. It's poor fuckin taste to be a UK citizen, in the UK cheering on the German national soccer team. It's even poorer taste considering that England is a perennial underdog, while Germany is a powerhouse amongst the European teams.

    Sorry, this ain't anti-German shit, I'm cool with the German people, I'm even cool with their soccer team, but for people in Allied nations to be cheering them on before the WWII generation has even passed is both poor taste and sad, quite frankly, that people don't value the feelings of those who survived that nasty era.


    Ah, come on. It's not like the present generations had anything whatsoever to do with starting WWII.
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #667 - June 25, 2010, 11:51 PM

    I ain't got nothing against England, and I say that as a Scottish. But... I have Germany in the sweepstake. But if Germany get booted out, I'll root for England... for all the good it'll do
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #668 - June 26, 2010, 12:01 AM

    Not cool. Not cool as long as there's one British WWII vet or Blitz survivor alive. It's poor fuckin taste to be a UK citizen, in the UK cheering on the German national soccer team. It's even poorer taste considering that England is a perennial underdog, while Germany is a powerhouse amongst the European teams.javascript:void(0);

    Sorry, this ain't anti-German shit, I'm cool with the German people, I'm even cool with their soccer team, but for people in Allied nations to be cheering them on before the WWII generation has even passed is both poor taste and sad, quite frankly, that people don't value the feelings of those who survived that nasty era.

    This the first time you say something that makes me go "bullshit".
    Look I'm too surprised that an Englishman is rooting for Germany. Hence my  Huh? at HO. I surprised because I personally would never root for any team playing Iraq.

    But this has nothing to do with WWII.

    I've been an England supporter since 2001 (and a ManU supporter since 99). I didn't start rooting for them because I liked England or English people more than other countries or peoples. And I didn't think of the British colonialism.
    Also, I was rooting for the USA in their match against Algeria even though I'm an Arab whose country has been invaded and bombarded by the US numerous times.

    To me it's just football !
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #669 - June 26, 2010, 12:02 AM

    Yeah exactly I'm rooting for the US team and the English team (even though they FUCKING SUCK  Cry) without thinking about the politics.
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #670 - June 26, 2010, 12:31 AM

    Not taking the piss at all IA, just that I can see beyond a given nationality


    It has to be something more than that. You make it sound like it's a little racy to support your own country for the sole reason that it is your own country. There's one reason why I'm supporting England in this World Cup and one reason only, because I'm English. There are many nations whose people I think are friendlier than people from my own country and I admire them a lot (such as the Dutch) but there's no way in hell I'd want Holland to beat England if there were in a match with each other.

    I wouldn't say you should support England. That's a bit strong, and, to be honest, if your heart isn't in it, then I don't want you to support England. But what I am saying is supporting England should come naturally to you. It's just confusing that it doesn't. It's a social cohesion thing. If you were in an English pub full of football fans and everyone supported a different team, that would just suck!

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #671 - June 26, 2010, 12:37 AM

    It also has a higher number of players from diverse ethnic backgrounds than at any time in the country's sporting history. Around half of the players are either born abroad, have parents who were born abroad or have one non-German parent.


    Wait a second. I knew ethnicity wasn't important in determining what national football team you belonged to. I thought that it boiled down to nationality instead. Nationality is the country you were born in, right? But if the German team contains players who weren't even born in Germany, then what determines which national football team you belong to? Is it citizenship? But you can change your citizenship, but I've never heard of a player changing which national side they play for... And if it's mere choice, then how come you don't get national transfers like you do in club-level football?

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #672 - June 26, 2010, 01:09 AM

    It has to be something more than that. You make it sound like it's a little racy to support your own country for the sole reason that it is your own country. There's one reason why I'm supporting England in this World Cup and one reason only, because I'm English. There are many nations whose people I think are friendlier than people from my own country and I admire them a lot (such as the Dutch) but there's no way in hell I'd want Holland to beat England if there were in a match with each other.

    I wouldn't say you should support England. That's a bit strong, and, to be honest, if your heart isn't in it, then I don't want you to support England. But what I am saying is supporting England should come naturally to you. It's just confusing that it doesn't. It's a social cohesion thing. If you were in an English pub full of football fans and everyone supported a different team, that would just suck!

    My thoughts exactly.

    Many here know that I'm one of the least patriotic people on the forum. I have said repeatedly that I think British society is superior to Iraq ad I'm not one of those Iraqis who think Iraq is a great country and Iraqis are the best.....blah blah blah but at the end of the day, I'm Iraqi and therefore I support the Iraqi national team in any match. And I don't see a scenario where I would not support Iraq. Maybe maybe in 10-20 yeas from now when I've lived in the UK long enough to feel truly British, only then I might support England if it played Iraq. But even then I would still support Iraq if it played any team other than England. And If Iraq played England tomorrow I would instinctively support Iraq.
     


    Wait a second. I knew ethnicity wasn't important in determining what national football team you belonged to. I thought that it boiled down to nationality instead. Nationality is the country you were born in, right? But if the German team contains players who weren't even born in Germany, then what determines which national football team you belong to? Is it citizenship? But you can change your citizenship, but I've never heard of a player changing which national side they play for... And if it's mere choice, then how come you don't get national transfers like you do in club-level football?

    The FIFA regulations state that you can only play for one national team in your professional career. If I'm not mistaken, the only exception is you can play for the under 21 (U21) of a given country and then switch to another team but once you played for a country professionally you can't play for another even if you have dual nationality.

    Anyway, as for the German team, by foreign-born it means naturalized citizens who were born outside Germany but moved to Germany and acquired citizenship. Mind you, these players could have moved to Germany at a young age and are as culturally German as anyone. Like Freddie Mercury who moved to the UK at 17 but is considered British by most people.

  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #673 - June 26, 2010, 01:29 AM

    This the first time you say something that makes me go "bullshit".
    Look I'm too surprised that an Englishman is rooting for Germany. Hence my  Huh? at HO. I surprised because I personally would never root for any team playing Iraq.

    But this has nothing to do with WWII.

    I've been an England supporter since 2001 (and a ManU supporter since 99). I didn't start rooting for them because I liked England or English people more than other countries or peoples. And I didn't think of the British colonialism.
    Also, I was rooting for the USA in their match against Algeria even though I'm an Arab whose country has been invaded and bombarded by the US numerous times.

    To me it's just football !


    If your grandpa fought in WWII against the Germans and had his torso ripped to shreds by a mortar, you'd get it. If you and HighOctane's grandparents were brought up in England and fought in WWII, you'd get it. It's also a generational thing I think-- I'm at the tail end of Gen X and just on the cusp of Y, and Gen X is probably the last generation to have a real emotional attachment to WWII because we remember our grandparents when they weren't senile telling us about it.

    I'm not saying you'd agree with me, but you'd "get it". It was more than a mere war-- it was a titanic clash of ideology, of good and evil, even if the good wasn't really all that good and the evil not always that evil.

    Even if Hassan doesn't agree with me on this I betcha anything he "gets it"

    fuck you
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #674 - June 26, 2010, 01:30 AM

    There's one reason why I'm supporting England in this World Cup and one reason only, because I'm English. ... I wouldn't say you should support England. That's a bit strong, and, to be honest, if your heart isn't in it, then I don't want you to support England. But what I am saying is supporting England should come naturally to you.


    Hey J4m3z, I used to be a big/huge/mahausive fan of everything English mate. Damon Hill (champ '96!), England football team, Henmania, Olympics.

    But then I came to some conclusions. One doesn't support Germany in football over night just like a Muslim gives up Islam, haha!

    One of which is the that exists in us humans: us Vs them mentality . As a result, it is a natural tendency to identify and like people you are a part of. But this is a mental fallacy in this day and age I think, where diversity is far more important, especially in our connected world of businesses, financial failures and contagious flu viruses.

    Then there is the issue of the world developing. If most of the world is tending towards being developed, what differentiates us then? So even though Asian Tiger countries are deemed "Westernized", it is more the case that (imo) any group of people who advance will inevitably become developed and appear "Westernized", it I think it is more the case the West just happened to be the first.

    So, then, one has to consider, who defines *your* boundry? The people around you? Or what *you* think? Another thought: Would all humans would come together as a whole if an alien empire tried to invade us like in Independence day? I'm pretty sure we would! Another thought: I know Indians who are mad Man U fans, posters on Ronaldo on their work desks. Is that less Indian of them? How about my (British) relatives who where HUGE Michael Schumacher fans because he was an amazing driver. When he crashed infront of us in 1999 they wanted to leave, but only stayed because I wanted to see Damon Hill finish.

    So if boundaries (such as for sports) are relative to the eye of the beholder, and diversity is better than segregation, I have to question why am I boxing myself via a natural instinct that exists within us?

    So, yes, it did come naturally for me to support England. But after being fed up of their performance, and reasoning about the "them Vs Us" mentality, reasoning about what it means to have borders and boundries: I'm rooting for a team that plays well and don't feel any less English for it. Living in Germany had an effect too, the German team play more comfortably then sitting on-the-edge England. But don't get me wrong, supporting a Germany team is completely different to being a British citizen such as paying taxes, living up to British laws and values (and even British political ideas that really do make sense to me).

    As I've mentioned before and I'll say it again: it seems to be not an issue to not care about a British tennis player, but yet when it comes to football, it gets all national. I'd gladly support England if they were playing well, but knowing them very well, it's not worth the heart ache and bitter bills ... I'm sure you know what it feels like J4m3z! If they improved and I enjoy their football, sure, I'll more than gladly support them, just like any other tennis player at Wimbledon regardless of nationality.

    I won't be going to pub at all. I probably wont be watching the match anyways, have other things to do!!
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #675 - June 26, 2010, 01:40 AM

    If your grandpa fought in WWII against the Germans and had his torso ripped to shreds by a mortar, you'd get it. If you and HighOctane's grandparents were brought up in England and fought in WWII, you'd get it. It's also a generational thing I think-- I'm at the tail end of Gen X and just on the cusp of Y, and Gen X is probably the last generation to have a real emotional attachment to WWII because we remember our grandparents when they weren't senile telling us about it.

    I'm not saying you'd agree with me, but you'd "get it". It was more than a mere war-- it was a titanic clash of ideology, of good and evil, even if the good wasn't really all that good and the evil not always that evil.

    Even if Hassan doesn't agree with me on this I betcha anything he "gets it"

    Well I do get it but I disagree with you.

    Like I said I'm also surprised that HO is rooting for Germany. But the reason I'm surprised is not because it's Germany in particular but rather because it's not England. I would be similarly surprised if he supported Australia or Canada.

    I was in Egypt when Turkey played Germany in the 2008 European Championship and most people in the cafe cheered for Turkey as if Egypt was playing. I "got it", it was because Turkey is a Muslim country and Germany is not and Egyptians are by and large religious.
    Same thing when my Iraqi friends support anybody playing Iran. I "get it", it's because we had been at war with them and the memory is still there.

    However the is a difference between "getting it" and thinking this is how it should be. If a friend of mine tells me "we should support Korea when they play Iran because Iranians killed my grandpa" I will *get* where he's coming from but I would still say "Bullshit"  Wink
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #676 - June 26, 2010, 01:46 AM

    I didn't get it, like what does it matter? just a bunch of men kicking a football about and i thought there were better players on the other team...(No offence guys!) What does it matter the other men are from another country...Some how they've become the 'enemy'?

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #677 - June 26, 2010, 01:56 AM

    Quote
    I didn't get it, like what does it matter? just a bunch of men kicking a football about and i thought there were better players on the other team...(No offence guys!) What does it matter the other men are from another country...Some how they've become the 'enemy'?


    I think it is because men have a REAL US Vs THEM mentality in them! As football is a manly team game, there is big national pride at stake. Hence why cricket and rugby are also linked to national pride. Hmm ... well that's what I figure ...
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #678 - June 26, 2010, 02:02 AM

    Interesting article:

    Soccer, the last acceptable form of nationalism.
    http://www.slate.com/id/2067084

    Quote
    In part, reverse snobbery explains this strange phenomenon. Soccer is the man-on-the-street's game in Europe, and the politicians, academics, and high-end journalists who would normally shun exhibitionist patriotism support their national teams as a means of proving they are really men-in-the street themselves. But it may also be that high national emotions are permissible when a soccer team is playing precisely because they are impermissible at most other times. There aren't, simply, many other places where you can sing your national anthem until you lose your voice without causing a riot.


    Quote
    Europeans, on the other hand?citizens of postmodern states?have fewer and fewer, and need those soccer highs badly as a result.

  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #679 - June 26, 2010, 05:24 AM

    Not a bad article, but 'nationalism in football' only makes sense if its the World Cup or a continental championship - competitions that are held every 4 years. Outside these glimpses of international football, the sport is dominated and actually run by club competitions, leagues, cups, etc that are country-based. Nationalism goes out the window when, lets say, Real Madrid face FC Barcelona or when Liverpool face Manchester United.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #680 - June 26, 2010, 06:08 PM

    Good luck to the USA. I've been impressed by their spirit.

    Hope you guys make it through.

    My apologies to Ghana who are also good.
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #681 - June 26, 2010, 06:26 PM

    One of the black USA players is wearing a black glove - is that to signify "Black Power"?
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #682 - June 26, 2010, 06:32 PM

    No I think its just cold there.  Tongue

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #683 - June 26, 2010, 06:33 PM

    Good luck to the USA. I've been impressed by their spirit.

    Hope you guys make it through.

    My apologies to Ghana who are also good.

     Angry

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #684 - June 26, 2010, 06:53 PM

    Kevin-Prince Boateng was supposed to play for Germany (like his younger brother Jérôme Boateng) after playing like 41 games for the Germany U15-U21 sides in the past. Ghana struck gold with him when he switched allegiances for a senior international career, esp. since Michael Essien missed this World Cup because of injury.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #685 - June 26, 2010, 07:10 PM

    High Octane, you're worrying about it way too much. The thing is, you are right. For me it IS an "us vs them" thing. But that doesn't mean I'm being immature about it. In fact, I think it's more mature. The thing is, I recognize that the "us vs them" thing is just a bit a friendly banter in this context.

    What you said about England being frustrating to watch, I can totally relate to. The 3 games they've played so far have left me with an awkward pain in the backside. We might have won the last match, but 1 - 0 against the legendary footballing machine that is SLOVENIA?! I know the match against Germany tomorrow will probably end in tears, and yet I will still foolishly support England till the end. But it's that raw team spirit I have which contributes to a football watching experience that is filled with adrenaline. It's such a thrill whenever England score, even more so when your in a pub full of England fans. The social spirit that becomes apparent is beautiful. I feel like, with the kind of thinking that your employing here HO, I don't believe that you will have the same awe-inspiring experience if Germany beat England tomorrow. You will probably just catch the result with your eye on subtitles and whisper "yes!" and then, for you that'll just be the end of it. Pretty dull really. Kinda takes the piss out of all the effort that has been put into World Cup 2010. But meh, by the sounds of it your not right bothered about the World Cup anyway.

    I think that Stardust and High Octane are on the other end of the spectrium to Q-Man. There was a Korean supporter in South Africa who held a placard saying something like "let's forget about politics for 90 minutes." Q-Man, I totally disagree with what you're saying. Stardust, and High Octane, you're overly conscious about the possibility of political significance in these football matches. Even though I have an "us vs them" mentality, it is completely politics-free and there are no hard feelings involved at all. The World Cup, for me is all about celebrating multi-culture, and me getting behind my national team exactly because they're my national team, is not killing multi-culture, it's contributing to it.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #686 - June 26, 2010, 07:14 PM

    Kevin-Prince Boateng was supposed to play for Germany (like his younger brother Jérôme Boateng) after playing like 41 games for the Germany U15-U21 sides in the past. Ghana struck gold with him when he switched allegiances for a senior international career, esp. since Michael Essien missed this World Cup because of injury.


    Yeah, someone just told me that the rule is, you have the choice to play for any one of these national sides:

    1. The place where you were born
    2. The place where your mother was born
    3. The place where your father was born

    As soon as you have made your choice and you play in a senior level (over 21) national match, then you can't change sides again.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #687 - June 26, 2010, 07:27 PM

    One of the black USA players is wearing a black glove - is that to signify "Black Power"?


    Grin

    The American coach is wearing a thick jacket. It's winter down there.
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #688 - June 26, 2010, 07:35 PM

    Yeah, someone just told me that the rule is, you have the choice to play for any one of these national sides:

    1. The place where you were born
    2. The place where your mother was born
    3. The place where your father was born

    This is wrong. If you're a naturalized citizen of a country you can play for their national team. For example if someone is born in Portugal and his parents were born in Spain but then they moved to France and they became naturalized citizens, he is eligible to play for the French national team.
  • Re: The Official World Cup Thread
     Reply #689 - June 26, 2010, 07:40 PM

    OK let's say in fictional land America wins the world cup.

    Who gets to play the coach?



    Here is he is after beating a vuvuzela fan to a bloody pulp. His facial expression is saying "Anybody else?"



    Here he's showing a hard-shelled man but with a sensitive side. A sensitive side that is buried under 5 feet of steel-enforced concrete and a mountain of dead vuvuzela fans.

    Or:



    "FIFA doesn't approve? Look into my eyes and tell me you if see a modicum of pity or remorse. Didn't think so.
    Those vuvuzela fans had it coming. Even the 13 year olds. "
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