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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

 (Read 201143 times)
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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1590 - June 25, 2010, 11:56 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 25, 2010, 11:50 PM
    A narration  attributed to Ubada b. as-Samit reports:
    ?    whenever Allah's Apostle received revelation, he felt its rigour and the complexion of his face changed. One day revelation descended upon him, he felt the same rigour. When it was over and he felt relief, he said: Take from me. Verily Allah has ordained a way for them (the women who commit fornication),: (When) a married man (commits adultery) with a married woman, and an unmarried male with an unmarried woman, then in case of married (persons) there is (a punishment) of one hundred lashes and then stoning (to death). And in case of unmarried persons, (the punishment) is one hundred lashes and exile for one year.[4]    ?

    A narration attributed to Abu Ishaq Shaibani reports:
    ?    I asked 'Abdullah b. Abu Aufi if Allah's Messenger awarded (the punishment) of stoning (to death). He said: Yes. I said: After Sura al-Nur was revealed or before that? He said: I do not know.[5]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajm


    Your thoughts DB?


    same as my thoughts regarding the alleged Hadith reporting Umar saying that there were verses for stoning in the Quran that went under Naskh, BS.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1591 - June 25, 2010, 11:59 PM
    You don't think Naskh is weird coming from an Omniscient being?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1592 - June 25, 2010, 11:59 PM
    Quote from: debunker on June 25, 2010, 11:50 PM
    I think you'e confusing two or more stories.


    Nope. I definitely read about that somewhere. I'll see if I can find the references for it.

    Quote from: debunker on June 25, 2010, 11:48 PM
    what? But Quran doesn't prescribe stoning disobedient kids either, not does prescribe killing those who are disrepectful towards the Mullhas, etc, etc, etc.

    As for the stoning verse, a Hadith in Bukhari reported that Umar said there was a verse in the Quran prescribing stoning for adulters but it was removed by *Naskh* while its ruling was still valid!

    The laughable joke is: why would God remove the stoning verse and keep the verses prescribing flogging? The great scholars have two very funny justifications for this:

    1- To test us.
    2- To show that we are better than the Joooos.

    The scholars go to such great limits to defen Hadith contradicting the Quran.


    Of course, just because the ahadith in question contradict the Qur'an doesn't mean that Muhammad never spoke them.

    But maybe they are a load of BS. In any case, it's only a problem I guess if you really regard Bukhari's hadith on the matter as being Sahih. Like I say, it's something that an orthodox Muslim would probably have more difficulty with.

    And the stoning of disobedient children isn't part of Islamic law, so I don't expect it to be in either its holy book or hadith collections. That's not the case for a book that claims to confirm the Torah, and for a religion which mandates the same punishment.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1593 - June 26, 2010, 12:01 AM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 25, 2010, 11:16 PM

    I've been wanting to discuss why stoning isn't in the Qur'an yet it claims to confirm the Torah (which does prescribe the punishment) and the hadith accounts show that Muhammad accepted the injunction of the Torah and that he himself ordered that the punishment be carried out against adulterers.

    A question for ya: Do you think that Muhammad didn't believe in stoning adulterers and that these ahadith are BS?

    And I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just genuinely curious about this.

    I heard that the weak hadith insinuated that these versus were in the Quran, but Aisha pulled them out after she thought people might stone her after meetings outside with various men on the streets after the prophets death.

    When challenged where these versus had gone, she claimed a few pages had been eaten by a goat.  Make of this what you will, if you havent already come across it before.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1594 - June 26, 2010, 12:02 AM
    Quote from: ateapotist on June 25, 2010, 08:05 PM
    Cheesy mysmilie_977

    First it was Dreamer, and then DreamWeaver and now Jinn and Tonic. dance
    They're all cool names. Afro



    I was requested to change it because of the song i got it from upset someone  LOL.  I have no plans on changing it
    any time soon lol.  And this person owes me BIG TIME for changing it too!    bunny
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1595 - June 26, 2010, 12:05 AM
    @ Ali

    I found the Hadith in prophet Muslim's book, unfortunately, it's in Arabic.. but here's my attempt at translating it (maybe Hassan would be kind enough to translate it properly):

    http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?hnum=5326&doc=1

    The prophet said: don't write about me (Hadith) and who wrote anything except the Quran, let him erase it; and talk about me as you want; and he who forges lies about me, let him take his place in the Fire.

    Hassan, I feel I made a half-ass translation, could you please help?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1596 - June 26, 2010, 12:07 AM
    Quote
    let him erase it and talk about me as you want


    I don't get this part?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1597 - June 26, 2010, 12:08 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 26, 2010, 12:01 AM
    I heard that the weak hadith insinuated that these versus were in the Quran, but Aisha pulled them out after she thought people might stone her after meetings outside with various men on the streets after the prophets death.

    When challenged where these versus had gone, she claimed a few pages had been eaten by a goat.  Make of this what you will, if you havent already come across it before.


    BD mentioned the 'verses that were eaten by a goat' hadith.

    I read about a similar such incident in which Aisha left the main group of Muslims while they were travelling, allegedly looking for a lost piece of jewellery. People started to suspect that she had committed adultery with someone, and then the verse requiring four witnesses to testify in the case of adultery was revealed.

    And as for Aisha removing the verses, there were other copies of the Qur'an and people who had memorized it. It's not likely the Aisha could have affected much by removing the verses from a few copies of the Qur'an.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1598 - June 26, 2010, 12:09 AM
    Wait. Are you saying this verse was removed or destroyed AFTER the death of Muhammad?

    lol that was stupid never mind. That makes sense.

    Do you have a source though?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1599 - June 26, 2010, 12:09 AM
    It says: if one of the Sahaba wrote a Hadith, he should wipe it out.. no writing Hadiths, only oral Hadiths were allowed by the prophet (this is according to this *written* Hadith in Muslm's book Smiley Ah! the irony!)
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1600 - June 26, 2010, 12:10 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 26, 2010, 12:09 AM
    It says: if one of the Sahaba wrote a Hadith, he should wipe it out.. no writing Hadiths, only oral Hadiths were allowed by the prophet (this is according to this *written* Hadith in Muslm's book Smiley Ah! the irony!)


    Hm interesting. Oral hadiths. Chinese whispers. Since at one point they would change unless written down. What you think?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1601 - June 26, 2010, 12:11 AM
    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on June 26, 2010, 12:02 AM
    I was requested to change it because of the song i got it from upset someone  LOL.  I have no plans on changing it
    any time soon lol.  And this person owes me BIG TIME for changing it too!    bunny


    That would be me, folks.  grin12

    You gotta admit, though, Jinn and Tonic is WAY cooler than DreamWeaver. I have a feeling this new username will send your popularity on CEMB skyrocketing to new heights.  Afro Afro
    fuck you
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1602 - June 26, 2010, 12:12 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 25, 2010, 11:59 PM
    You don't think Naskh is weird coming from an Omniscient being?


    The elaborate meaning of Naskh, according to the Sunni doctorine, is utter BS. Anyway, this a big topic.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1603 - June 26, 2010, 12:14 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 26, 2010, 12:09 AM
    Wait. Are you saying this verse was removed or destroyed AFTER the death of Muhammad?

    lol that was stupid never mind. That makes sense.

    Do you have a source though?


    You talkin' to me?

    In any case, I assume you'd mean the source for the story about Aisha and the verses requiring four witnesses?

    If you are, then you're just gonna have to wait. As I'm now going to sleep. Night.  grin12
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1604 - June 26, 2010, 12:16 AM
    Quote


    Right so you just want to say something but not debate about it. That's cool.

    I think anybody who says hijab is beautiful and shows modesty (as if putting a table cloth on your head makes you more modest in the sight of Allah, like he’s some grump old man with shrivelled balls and dried oatmeal crust around his lips and doesn’t want to see women frolicking in the sun.) and doesn't wear is it condescending and patronizing. If it’s so good why doesn’t that person do it? I think anybody that makes that comment needs to think if it's them making the comment or if it's something they've picked up and not really thought through.

    Oh and you don’t need to respond to my post.

    Just an atheist practicing his """freedom of speech""".


    That part I can agree to. Sure that was offensive (I don't think it's table cloth btw I was joking). But the rest? How did I totally shit on her? My whole point was I think is the modesty issue is BS why would a God care about it? Unless God is a man from the 7th century?

    Or do you mean she would take offense to Allah? I mean come on dude. It's like talking about Zeus to me. Wtf am I supposed to do? Respect a non-existing deity? On an ex-muslim forum that was created for people who no longer believe in this deity?

    I don't understand why you switched from saying its cool guys I understand to making several posts about it?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1605 - June 26, 2010, 12:18 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 26, 2010, 12:10 AM
    Hm interesting. Oral hadiths. Chinese whispers. Since at one point they would change unless written down. What you think?


    Later Sunnis claim that the prophet was afraid that the Sahaba would confuse Hadith and Quran.. Obviously Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman (and I guess Ali too) didn't think so... they thought it was forbidden to write Hadith, period!

    Hmmm? Why do I smell Mu'awaya/Ummayyad's rotten hands had to do something with legalizing writing Hadith?

    My view, if that Hadith was indeed correct, is that the prophet didn't see the details of his life anywhere near as imortant as the Quran.

    Rituals like the prayers, etc, could be preserved by tradition, since people were peforming these non-stop. Other details weren't as important, so what if they got lost? Who cares?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1606 - June 26, 2010, 12:22 AM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 26, 2010, 12:08 AM
    BD mentioned the 'verses that were eaten by a goat' hadith.

    I read about a similar such incident in which Aisha left the main group of Muslims while they were travelling, allegedly looking for a lost piece of jewellery. People started to suspect that she had committed adultery with someone, and then the verse requiring four witnesses to testify in the case of adultery was revealed.

    And as for Aisha removing the verses, there were other copies of the Qur'an and people who had memorized it. It's not likely the Aisha could have affected much by removing the verses from a few copies of the Qur'an.


    Are you serious? Assuming the prophet was an imposter, he didn't need to put a general ruling of 4 witnesses to make proving adultery/fornication impossible! He could have easily claimed that God told him that Aicha, specifically, was innocent without going into making a whole ruling about it.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1607 - June 26, 2010, 12:33 AM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 25, 2010, 11:59 PM
    Nope. I definitely read about that somewhere. I'll see if I can find the references for it.

    Of course, just because the ahadith in question contradict the Qur'an doesn't mean that Muhammad never spoke them.

    But maybe they are a load of BS. In any case, it's only a problem I guess if you really regard Bukhari's hadith on the matter as being Sahih. Like I say, it's something that an orthodox Muslim would probably have more difficulty with.

    And the stoning of disobedient children isn't part of Islamic law, so I don't expect it to be in either its holy book or hadith collections. That's not the case for a book that claims to confirm the Torah, and for a religion which mandates the same punishment.


    The confirmation of the Torah, Injil, Suhuf Ibrahim, is just to say to pagans that MONOTHEISM is not a new ideology and that Islam (pure submision to the Creator God) is nothing new.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1608 - June 26, 2010, 12:46 AM
    Quote from: Zebedee on June 26, 2010, 12:14 AM
    You talkin' to me?

    In any case, I assume you'd mean the source for the story about Aisha and the verses requiring four witnesses?

    If you are, then you're just gonna have to wait. As I'm now going to sleep. Night.  grin12


    Yupp talking to you Smiley
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1609 - June 26, 2010, 12:49 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 26, 2010, 12:18 AM
    Hmmm? Why do I smell Mu'awaya/Ummayyad's rotten hands had to do something with legalizing writing Hadith?

    My view, if that Hadith was indeed correct, is that the prophet didn't see the details of his life anywhere near as important as the Quran.

    My view is that he didnt want the way he practised under close scrutiny.  Doas I say, not say as I do.  And if my memory serves me correctly, that is actually written in the scriptures lol.

    Also he may not have cared what happened after he died, or he didnt expect it to continue after his death (nor go as far as it eventually did).  I mean he didnt appoint to caliph to succeed him, and left them to fight about it amongst themselves.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1610 - June 26, 2010, 12:54 AM
    @ Islame

    Ummm, that would have been a plausible speculation (at least from a neutral view) if he wasn't actually emphasize that they write/preserve the Quran! If he didn't care what happened to his messae after his death, he would have said: don't write the Quran either!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1611 - June 26, 2010, 01:03 AM
    Some chapters of the bible were of oral tradition before they were written too. Yet why do some say
    THEY were inaccurate b/c it was oral traidition?  EVERYTHING was oral as momo couldnt read OR write!
    I wonder why Allah didnt divinely give him those abilities, i mean you know, since he WAS the last
    prophet.  Sometimes i wonder if muslims almost equate him, or revere him as much as Allah.
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1612 - June 26, 2010, 01:05 AM
    @ J&T

    I hope you're not addressing your last post me as I dislike most of your posts and I decided to ignore them...  I don't wish to explain why, lest I insult you.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1613 - June 26, 2010, 01:18 AM
    like i care lol.  put me on your ignore list then.  I promise, i wont be offended  dance


    modified
    *this was in fact, directed to you, db*
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1614 - June 26, 2010, 01:27 AM
    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on June 26, 2010, 01:18 AM
    like i care lol.  put me on your ignore list then.  I promise, i wont be offended  dance


    modified
    *this was in fact, directed to you, db*


    oh great! and I don't believe in the ignore function because I can still read the posts offline. But it's good that we understand each other! So long, J&T!

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1615 - June 26, 2010, 01:56 AM
    Ok I'm going to lock this thread while I split the OT posts into a separate thread. Hang on everyone. Thx.

    Edited: Thread is now unlocked - please stay on topic inside each thread, or start a new thread for a new topic. Thanks.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1616 - June 26, 2010, 07:19 AM
    Where do we find the split threads?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1617 - June 26, 2010, 07:22 AM
    I didn't even realise this thread had a topic as such.  grin12
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1618 - June 26, 2010, 07:33 AM
    Quote from: @li on June 26, 2010, 07:19 AM
    Where do we find the split threads?


    Oh yeah... http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10957.0
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #1619 - June 26, 2010, 07:38 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 26, 2010, 07:22 AM
    I didn't even realise this thread had a topic as such.  grin12

    ^^ THIS
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