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Theme Changer

 Topic: Peace, All

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  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #150 - June 18, 2010, 12:56 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 18, 2010, 12:35 AM
     If this will be the sum total of the discussions you will bring, hupla, I'm afraid I will have to put you on 'mute.'


    C'mon man.

    You put me on mute for pointing out the things you say which totally contradict Islam. here they are incase you somehow missed them  Roll Eyes.


    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10789.msg287487#msg287487


    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10789.msg287390#msg287390

    BRB following Islam without even knowing the basic aqeedah

    BRB coming to an apostate forum to debate, despite not even knowing what I'm supposed to believe as a Muslim

    You are either a jahil or you're trolling. I hope for your sake that you're trolling.
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #151 - June 18, 2010, 01:08 AM
    ras111.  but thats what its all about.  MEN'S pleasure on earth, and even more in paradise.
    The good deeds thing.  My "fellow muslims" and i would discuss this at length. (re: good deeds),
    zakat, etc).  And I argued, WHY do you say doing this or that will give you more points for jannah?
    Why cant you just do a good deed because its in your heart to do so, because it gives you pleasure
    to ease the suffering of another?  WHY does there have to be a mandate that you HAVE to?   It
    seemed almost incomprihensible to them, a novel thought of doing good deeds JUST BECAUSE
    and not for a reward.  every single action done by a muslim, in my experience,  is to rack up
    points for jannah.  IF it is true, that the last person in jannah, on the lowest rung, his/her kingdom
    will be greater than all the kingdoms of earth, and he will be none the wiser that theres something better,
    THEN isnt all these "point-based deeds" selfish in nature?  Because I see NOT ONE Surrah that talks about
    the blissful fellowship between God and his creation.  Rather, he drops by, asks if everyone is happy,
    then leaves again.     Huh?   And the concept of hellfire was around LONNNNNNNNG before anyone
    started a "one god" religion, let alone wrote about it.
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #152 - June 18, 2010, 04:11 AM
    @ MRasheed

    You have been very wise in repeatedly ignoring Hassan's questions. Hassan is very dangerous to your faith... avoid his questions like you avoid the plague! He practically shattered to pieces the faith of another Muslim member, here, AbuYunus2.

    Beware Hassan! Stay away from him! And yeah, you can have fun answering others' questions, but if you fear for your faith, keep away from Hassan!

    Oh and welcome to the forum!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #153 - June 18, 2010, 04:14 AM
    Yay! more artsy people! welcome to the forum, dude!
    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #154 - June 18, 2010, 04:26 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 17, 2010, 10:46 PM
    He is the Supreme Creator and He dictates the Rules for His creation.  I am only a human being of earth who is by no means omniscien.  He knows and I know not.  All I can see if from my limited perspective, while He sees ALL.  But, within my limited perspective if I tell my child that such-n-such will happen if he/she does such-n-such...

    ...I most certainly mean what I say.  If they decide to do such-n-such then their pain is on them.  Do you agree?  "Try me if you want to!"  lol

    yup.

    Define "large."

    Yup.


    With very specific rules and regulations for how they are to be treated.

    Technically you can take anybody as war booty.  That's often where their slaves came from.

    It sucks to be a slave.  They should convert and ask to buy their freedom.   In Islam the institution of slavery was mostly an opportunity to show allah your righteousness.  Allah gave numerous examples as to how a Muslim could score "Paradise points" by freeing them.


    I don't now if anyone's responded to this post, but saying "it sucks to be a slave" is an absolutely disgusting response to rape. Allowing people's rights to be so horribly infringed upon that they have no bodily integrity, that they can be repeatedly raped and it would be perfectly legal is highly immoral. Great fucking religion.

    Some poor woman who had nothing to do with the war is taken hostage as a slave and raped. Justice right? She can convert, be a good Muslimah and all that crap and still not be let go. As the Quran says, her keeper has to see some good in her. He doesn't have to.

    Also, the Quran provides an injunction against theft, murder, mischief against the prophet or whatever, fornication, and adultery, but nothing against rape, which is a much worse crime than the latter two. What kind of perfectly moral God leaves rape out of his perfectly moral book in general, and then says that its OK to rape slaves? Whats your response? It sucks to be a Muslimah?
    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #155 - June 18, 2010, 04:30 AM
    No point, Angel. Leave an immoral man to his immoral imaginary friend and fairy tale games. There's no hope for people unwilling to be honest with their own conscience. Apparently life is just one big game and you have to be willing to kiss an imaginary sadist's ass to get "paradise points".  Cheesy
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #156 - June 18, 2010, 04:40 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 17, 2010, 10:46 PM
    He is the Supreme Creator and He dictates the Rules for His creation.  I am only a human being of earth who is by no means omniscien.  He knows and I know not.  All I can see if from my limited perspective, while He sees ALL.  But, within my limited perspective if I tell my child that such-n-such will happen if he/she does such-n-such...

    ...I most certainly mean what I say.  If they decide to do such-n-such then their pain is on them.  Do you agree?  "Try me if you want to!"  lol


    So you WOULD torture your own child for all eternity if you could if they didn't do as you said?

    I'm not asking you if you can, of course you can't. But you WOULD if you could?

    Waiting for you to actually address the actual question.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #157 - June 18, 2010, 05:48 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 17, 2010, 10:46 PM
    Quote from: allat on June 17, 2010, 09:22 PM
    That Allah allows for slave rape? What are your feelings about that?

    It sucks to be a slave.  They should convert and ask to buy their freedom.   In Islam the institution of slavery was mostly an opportunity to show allah your righteousness.  Allah gave numerous examples as to how a Muslim could score "Paradise points" by freeing them.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZxzJGgox_E


    What a great guy God is Afro
    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #158 - June 18, 2010, 06:01 AM
    Quote
    It sucks to be a slave.  They should convert and ask to buy their freedom.   In Islam the institution of slavery was mostly an opportunity to show allah your righteousness.  Allah gave numerous examples as to how a Muslim could score "Paradise points" by freeing them

    It is interesting you see you are happy with the institution of slavery in a general sense - assuming you aren't a hypocrite, presumably you are happy with non-muslims taking and owning muslim slaves - and raping them etc.

    As a further example, are you against the abolition of slavery in the US?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #159 - June 18, 2010, 06:25 AM
    Quote from: DigDug on June 17, 2010, 11:28 PM
    Ok, but is this merciful?

    Is it merciful to punish someone for enternity no matter what they did?

    Is it merciful to create a human knowing that human will end up in the hellfire?

    I don't think anyone in this thread would want to torture a human being for eternity regardless of what they have done.

    I certainly don't think they would want to create a human who was destined to be tortured for eternity.

    U mad that we are all more merciful than YOUR God who call himself "the Most Merciful?"


    I think Islame was just confused. Muhammad did own a black slave his name was Zaid ibn haritha. Although he later adopted him.


    And then removed the adoption in order to marry his ex wife  dance
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #160 - June 18, 2010, 06:30 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 17, 2010, 10:46 PM
    It sucks to be a slave.  They should convert and ask to buy their freedom.   In Islam the institution of slavery was mostly an opportunity to show allah your righteousness.  Allah gave numerous examples as to how a Muslim could score "Paradise points" by freeing them.

    Wrong. The institution of slavery was an Arab social custom that signified their bedouin culture of capturing the people and property of rival tribes and people considered 'inferior' and 'weak' for their own personal use and abuse. A way of dominating and humiliating the defeated men, women, and children to the extent even Islam - for all its mercy and whatnot - decided to OK this continued the trend of Arabs seeking superiority over non-Muslims and non-Arabs. It was perhaps the main source of their income in buying and selling slaves.  Allah is called Most Merciful. But they forgot to call him a Cracker as well.

    The slave trade was a great source of earning for the Arabs/Muslims/Berbers in Africa. The Muslim rulers of those areas in places often raided territories outside their areas and captured blacks and sold them to Europeans. They were the biggest supporters of slave trade in their areas and I wonder how many blacks they captured and forcibly boarded to set sail for the Americas. Since in Islam, slavery is halal!

    Do you know what is the most offensive slur to call a black man in South Africa? Its not 'nigger' that's for sure....its 'KAFIR'! You know why? Because that was what their Arab slave lords - usually based in places like Zanzibar - would call them with scorn and beat them up before selling them to European settlers in South Africa. The legacy of the Arab slave trade. Allahu Akbar!

    MRasheed, your 'happiness' (and for that matter of many Muslims' support of) with Slavery in Islam and how keeping someone against their will in bonded labour and servitude to its master just because of their faith and being prisoners reminds me of one term I am sure you are VERY familiar with during Black History Month back in the USA:

    House Negro.

    In this case, a House Negro to an Arab/Muslim lord as compared to some White man in 18th century North Carolina. No difference whatsoever.
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #161 - June 18, 2010, 06:36 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 18, 2010, 06:25 AM
    And then removed the adoption in order to marry his ex wife  dance


    God ordained this to show the Arabs that their taboos regarding this were wrong. It had NOTHING to do with Muhammad being attracted to her.
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #162 - June 18, 2010, 06:48 AM
    DigDug,

    Zaid was NOT a black slave, he was an Arab slave. Muhammed practically forced Zainab (his cousin) to marry him (that's according to Tafsir, a dubious source for me) to dissolve the societal differences between Muslims.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #163 - June 18, 2010, 06:51 AM
    @ atheist.pk

    Although, admittedly, the Hadiths AND Sira books have contradicting accounts regarding enslaving *NON-combatants*, it can be easily deduced from the Quran that non-combatants were off-limits. Care for verses?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #164 - June 18, 2010, 06:57 AM
    Quote from: DigDug on June 18, 2010, 06:36 AM
    God ordained this to show the Arabs that their taboos regarding this were wrong. It had NOTHING to do with Muhammad being attracted to her.


    So bascially adoption was more or less removed for the benefit of marrying your adopted son's ex-wife?

    I can see how Allah prioritizes.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #165 - June 18, 2010, 07:03 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 18, 2010, 06:48 AM
    DigDug,

    Zaid was NOT a black slave, he was an Arab slave. Muhammed practically forced Zainab (his cousin) to marry him (that's according to Tafsir, a dubious source for me) to dissolve the societal differences between Muslims.


    I thought zaid was habashee...

    "Zayd said no and that he would stay due to the great love that Muhammad had shown him. Little is known of Zayd's natural father. Some sources say that Harithah was descended from the Arab  poet Imru' al-Qais. One or more of his ancestors may have been of African descent, as he is said to have had very dark skin.[1]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zayd_ibn_Harithah

    BlackDog

    I was being sarcastic haha
    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #166 - June 18, 2010, 07:04 AM
    Quote from: DigDug on June 18, 2010, 07:03 AM
    I thought zaid was habashee...

    BlackDog

    I was being sarcastic haha


    I know bro Tongue

    I was just trying to figure out my arguments against this. But I seem to have forgotten it.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #167 - June 18, 2010, 07:04 AM
    @ BD

    if you're going to accept the story in Sira (which, admittedly, has more than one version) then you have to accept it in its entirety.

    Muhammed forced Zainab and her brother (who were his cousins) to marry his ex-slave Zaid. When he came to ask for her hand in marriage to Zaid, they were happy thinking that he came to ask to marry her himself, not his ex-slave! They explicitly refused at first saying that they were hoping for the prophet and he (the prophet) gave them his slave, instead!

    Then, according to Tafsir, God said in the Quran a believer doesn't disobey the prophet and thus she had to marry Zaid. The marriage didn't work (I can imagine why!) and Muhammed (according to Quran) was trying to convince Zaid of not divorcing Zainab (even though Muhammed knew Zaid just didn't want her and he (Muhamed) hoped he'd be able to marry her himself-- probably because that's what she wanted all along).
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #168 - June 18, 2010, 07:09 AM
    Quote from: DigDug on June 18, 2010, 07:03 AM
    I thought zaid was habashee...

    "Zayd said no and that he would stay due to the great love that Muhammad had shown him. Little is known of Zayd's natural father. Some sources say that Harithah was descended from the Arab  poet Imru' al-Qais. One or more of his ancestors may have been of African descent, as he is said to have had very dark skin.[1]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zayd_ibn_Harithah


    yet another version of the same story.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #169 - June 18, 2010, 07:11 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 17, 2010, 09:43 PM
    Define the term so we are clear.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=creationist&defid=901760
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #170 - June 18, 2010, 07:15 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 18, 2010, 06:51 AM
    @ atheist.pk

    Although, admittedly, the Hadiths AND Sira books have contradicting accounts regarding enslaving *NON-combatants*, it can be easily deduced from the Quran that non-combatants were off-limits. Care for verses?

    Were the women and children of Khaibar and Banu Qurayzah etc 'combatants' such that they were all given out as war booty to be enslaved?
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #171 - June 18, 2010, 07:16 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 18, 2010, 04:11 AM
    @ MRasheed

    You have been very wise in repeatedly ignoring Hassan's questions. Hassan is very dangerous to your faith... avoid his questions like you avoid the plague! He practically shattered to pieces the faith of another Muslim member, here, AbuYunus2.

    Beware Hassan! Stay away from him! And yeah, you can have fun answering others' questions, but if you fear for your faith, keep away from Hassan

    Yes Hassan is the FITNAH that signifies the greatest enemy of faith: Reason.
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #172 - June 18, 2010, 07:23 AM
    @ atheist.pk

    Quote
    Were the women and children of Khaibar and Banu Qurayzah etc 'combatants' such that they were all given out as war booty to be enslaved?


    I already said that the stories in Hadith/Sira contradict regarding Non-Combatants. For example, one story reports that after Umar conquered Jurasalem, he signed this treaty:

    In the name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Beneficent. This is what the slave of Allah, Umar b.Al-Khattab, the Amir of the believers, has offered the people of Illyaa, of security granting them Amaan (protection) for their selves, their money, their churches, their children, their lowly and their innocent, and the remainder of their people. Their churches are not to be taken, nor are they to be destroyed, nor are they to be degraded or belittled, neither are their crosses or their money, and they are not to be forced to change their religion, nor is any one of them to be harmed. No Jews are to live with them in Illyaa, and it is required of the people of Illyaa, to pay the Jizya, like the people of the cities. It is also required of them to remove the Romans from the land; and whoever amongst the people of Illyaa, that wishes to depart with their selves and their money with the Romans, leaving their trading goods and children behind, then their selves, their trading goods and their children are secure until they reach their destination.

    Although the Jews were allowed in later, by Umar, after hundreds of years of being banned entry to Jerusalem by the Romans/Byzantines.

    Anyway, consider these verses from the Quran:

    60:10-11
    O you who believe! when believing women come to you flying, then examine them; Allah knows best their faith; then if you find them to be believing women, do not send them back to the unbelievers, neither are these (women) lawful for them, nor are those (men) lawful for them, and give them what they have spent; and no blame attaches to you in marrying them when you give them their dowries; and hold not to the ties of marriage of unbelieving women, and ask for what you have spent, and kt them ask for what they have spent. That is Allah's judgment; He judges between you, and Allah is Knowing, Wise. And if anything (out of the dowries) of your wives has passed away from you to the unbelievers, then your turn comes, give to those whose wives have gone away the like of what they have spent, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah in Whom you believe.


    God ordered the Muslims of Medina to give refuge to Meccan women who converted to Islam and ran away from their families. In addition, if someone wanted to marry one of the female refugees, God ordered the Muslims to pay the husband whose wife deserted him, after her conversion to Islam, God ordered the Muslims to pay him back his dowry before being able to marry his wife.

    So what we have here is a Muslim woman fleeing from Mecca, an enemy state of Medina and YET a Muslim man was not allowed to marry her unless he paid back the money her husband gave her as dowry!

    So how can anyone imagine that Quran would allow Muslim men to enslave non-combatants when they weren't even allowed to marry Muslim women fleeing Mecca until they paid back their Meccan husbands?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #173 - June 18, 2010, 07:30 AM
    Refugees are not slaves.

    If you want to go into the whole contradictory side of Hadith and Sira...then that more or less makes Islam a VERY contradictory religion with a contradictory history given how it is these VERY Hadith and Siras that essentially describe the acts of being a Muslim since (Salat, Zakat, Hajj, Shahadah) since all the Quran says is "This has been ordered to you, and so has that, and so has this" without even bothering about the How's of this that thing. How ambiguous of Allah.

    You wont even be able to do Salat WITHOUT the Hadith instructions. So when it comes to Islam being the so-called 'perfect' religion (and there is none)...it has a lot of holes that it cannot cover itself with thanks to the contradictory nature of the Hadith and Sira you mention.

    Allah is the Best of Planners...boy did he sure mess this one up.
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #174 - June 18, 2010, 08:02 AM
    Quote
    refugees are not slaves


    Smiley You're missing the point. According to you (and to some contradictory Islamic NON-Quranic sources) Muslims were allowed to enslave non-combatants... so they should have been allowed to enslave Meccan women and children, had they got the chance so the LEAST they could do is when a Meccan woman flees Mecca because she converted to Islam is to stick their tongues at her husband and marry her WITHOUT paying him back the money he gave her!! Don't ya think?

    And what about taxes? How can you tax non-combatants if they were slaves?

    As for rituals, they are NOT Islam, the heart and soul of Islam is in the Quran: submission to God.

    Anyway, I read that the Hadiths regarding rituals are Mutawatir. If that's true, then there's very little chance these are wrong, and even if they were, so what? Submission to God is God's religion, that' what the Quran says, in fact the Quran also says:

    003.064
    Say: O followers of the Book! come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not worship any but God and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him, and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides God; but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #175 - June 18, 2010, 08:06 AM
    Quote from: MRasheed on June 18, 2010, 12:42 AM
    Gotta go, guys.  I'll be back tomorrow.

    And thanks a lot for welcoming me in so quickly.

    @MRasheed
    Oh, and could you draw a cartoon about your interesting visit to this forum. Wink
    I hope it didn't feel like you were being hounded by a pack of wolves. Tongue
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #176 - June 18, 2010, 08:08 AM
    We hunger for muslim flesh. We are rarely fed.
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #177 - June 18, 2010, 08:22 AM
    yeah, I can see this hunger all over this thread! the poor dude just came in to say hi, and this thread evolved into 8 pages already!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #178 - June 18, 2010, 08:43 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 18, 2010, 08:22 AM
    yeah, I can see this hunger all over this thread! the poor dude just came in to say hi, and this thread evolved into 8 pages already!


    Reminds me when you logged in the first time Grin

    And Abu Yunus haha

    I just hope he doesn't start and end his visit to CEMB with the title of this thread Grin
  • Re: Peace, All
     Reply #179 - June 18, 2010, 08:45 AM
    Quote from: debunker on June 18, 2010, 08:02 AM
    Smiley You're missing the point. According to you (and to some contradictory Islamic NON-Quranic sources) Muslims were allowed to enslave non-combatants... so they should have been allowed to enslave Meccan women and children, had they got the chance so the LEAST they could do is when a Meccan woman flees Mecca because she converted to Islam is to stick their tongues at her husband and marry her WITHOUT paying him back the money he gave her!! Don't ya think?

    And what about taxes? How can you tax non-combatants if they were slaves?

    As for rituals, they are NOT Islam, the heart and soul of Islam is in the Quran: submission to God.

    Anyway, I read that the Hadiths regarding rituals are Mutawatir. If that's true, then there's very little chance these are wrong, and even if they were, so what? Submission to God is God's religion, that' what the Quran says, in fact the Quran also says:

    003.064
    Say: O followers of the Book! come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not worship any but God and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him, and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides God; but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims.

    Seems to me that Meccan women were not enslaved because they were Arabs of the same tribe as Muhammad's and many other Sahaba for that matter. And since they fled their homes after becoming Muslims, rather than being conquered by force, they were not enslaved. For enslavement of sub-humans like dirty Jews, Christians, Blacks, Ajamis, lesser Arab tribes, etc should be done no? Smiley

    Tribal Imperialism Subhanallah!

    You are THIS close to being a complete Murtad since your views are 'heretical' in the eyes of nearly 95% of all Muslims of all sects. If you dont follow what Muhammad did (Sira and Hadith) you in big trouble.  whistling2

    Why dont you leave this trivial pursuit in the name of Allah The Most Ambiguous The Most Confused, and join us to a ticket to the real Jahannam:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

    Heard its not a bad place to visit.
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
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