I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)

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Reply #240 - June 28, 2010, 06:45 PM

Quote from: charlesmartel on June 28, 2010, 06:37 PM
I thought you were trying to argue about perfectness of this world (fine-tuned universe argument) just a few posts ago by talking about protective blanket.

If this world is not perfect, your arguments of "fine tuned world" don't hold good. And if this world is perfect, well you know that it isn't.

Of course this world is NOT perfect AT ALL! It's so disaster prone it shouldn't be here, the miracle is that it is still here despite everything.

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Reply #241 - June 28, 2010, 06:46 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on June 28, 2010, 06:38 PM
Anyone? I'd have to know exactly what the mean of tickets sold on a twice weekly basis is in order to calculate that, and I don't know. I know the odds of a single ticket are 1 in 195 million, and several millions of tickets are sold each week.

How about a VERY rough estimate? Is it like 1/1000?

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Reply #242 - June 28, 2010, 06:47 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 06:35 PM
Please Kenan, are you saying that life could exist in a blazing inferno? (which many planets are). Sure life exists in extreme conditions but there are limits.

Interesting point. Believe it or not there were speculations that a sort of plasma based life could exist even inside stars.

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 06:36 PM
Are you saying that the chances for the grand prize to be won are almost always 100%?

Eventually somebody will always win the grand prize - but it might take a few attempts. The chance that somebody will win the grand prize every week is clearly not 100%, but it's still high.

Quote from: Q-Man on June 28, 2010, 06:38 PM
Eh, not true in Powerball. Sometimes the jackpot will roll over several weeks in a row. That's how you end up 250 million dollar jackpots-- they normally start around 20 million.

Do you perhaps know what the record was? How many attempts (weeks) did it take before the biggest jackpot ever was won?
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Reply #243 - June 28, 2010, 06:50 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 04:35 PM
why aren't they non-stop? I mean it seems it's been thousands of years since a meteor hit, right?

Quote
Sizes and frequencies
Small objects frequently collide with the Earth. There is an inverse relationship between the size of the object and the frequency that such objects hit the earth. Asteroids with a 1 km (0.62 mi) diameter strike the Earth every 500,000 years on average.[2] Large collisions – with 5 km (3 mi) objects – happen approximately once every ten million years. The last known impact of an object of 10 km (6 mi) or more in diameter was at the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event 65 million years ago.

Asteroids with diameters of 5 to 10 m (16 to 33 ft) enter the Earth's atmosphere approximately once per year, with as much energy as Little Boy, the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima, approximately 15 kilotonnes of TNT. These ordinarily explode in the upper atmosphere, and most or all of the solids are vaporized.[3] Objects with diameters over 50 m (164 ft) strike the Earth approximately once every thousand years, producing explosions comparable to the one known to have detonated above Tunguska in 1908.[4] At least one known asteroid with a diameter of over 1 km (0.62 mi), (29075) 1950 DA, has a possibility of colliding with Earth in March 2880, with a Torino Scale rating of two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_event

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Reply #244 - June 28, 2010, 06:50 PM

I dunno, K. Can probably find some info here, though-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerball

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Reply #245 - June 28, 2010, 06:54 PM

@ Kenan

Quote
Eventually somebody will always win the grand prize - but it might take a few attempts. The chance that somebody will win the grand prize every week is clearly not 100%, but it's still high.

If that is the case, then the analogy is faulty. In the case of the Grand prize, the event of winning the prize is almost always guaranteed (according to you). So the analogy, in this case, means that life is almost a guaranteed event, it just so happens that planet Earth was the winner.

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Reply #246 - June 28, 2010, 06:56 PM

From Wiki:

Payout and odds

Payouts (on the base $1 play) are according to the following:
Matches    Prize    Current probability of winning[10]
Zero numbers, plus Powerball    $ 3    1 in 61.74
1 number, plus Powerball    $ 4    1 in 123.48
2 numbers, plus Powerball    $ 7    1 in 787.17
3 numbers, no Powerball    $ 7    1 in 359.06
3 numbers, plus Powerball    $ 100    1 in 13,644.24
4 numbers, no Powerball    $ 100    1 in 19,030.12
4 numbers, plus Powerball    $ 10,000    1 in 723,144.64
All 5 numbers, no Powerball    $ 200,000    1 in 5,138,133.00
All 5 numbers, plus Powerball    Jackpot    1 in 195,249,054.00

Overall probability of winning a prize is 1 in 35.11. All non-jackpot prizes are fixed amounts, although they may be reduced and paid on a parimutuel basis if the number of winners at each prize level exceeds the funds in the prize pool for that drawing.[11]

Some may notice that the odds of matching only the Powerball (1-39) are 1:62, instead of 1:39. This is because there is a chance of matching at least one white ball in addition to the Powerball. Additionally, some may calculate the jackpot odds at 1:17 billion versus the actual 1:~195 million. This is due to the lottery being concerned with combinations rather than permutations.[12]

To put these odds in perspective, in the US in 2008 there were 1.03 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles traveled. A person living one mile from a retailer selling Powerball tickets is four times as likely to die in an accident traveling to and from that store (two miles round trip) than winning the Powerball jackpot on a $1 play. (Jackpot odds = 1 in 195 million; chance of death from vehicle accident= 2 miles * 1.03 deaths / 100 million miles); 1 jackpot = 2 * 1.03 * 195 million / 100 million = 4.02 deaths.

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 06:54 PM
@ Kenan

If that is the case, then the analogy is faulty. In the case of the Grand prize, the event of winning the prize is almost always guaranteed (according to you). So the analogy, in this case, means that life is almost a guaranteed event, it just so happens that planet Earth was the winner.

The problem with the reasoning above is that you assume that there is only one prize - which is true in case of lottery but untrue when it comes to life on other planets.

The fact that life exist on earth does not diminish the chance of finding life somewhere else. These two events are almost completely independent.
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Reply #247 - June 28, 2010, 07:00 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 06:41 PM
no. I think they're simply not convinced.

I don't have enough info about him.. but why name specific names? Have you even checked a single verse I listed about pride-based disbelief? Meccan pagans were accused of pride, the majority of verses speaking of Hell mention pride.

because he was the uncle of the prophet and he helped him out ect.. but simply did not believe in the message or hte prophethood of Muhammad. (basically his disbelief was no different than anyone on this website, no different than Islame or Hassan or Me)

The hadiths tell us that he is in hell even though he helped the prophet and guarded his life from the quraysh pagans ect.. You said the verses 47:8-9 only applied to the people who fought the Muslims. Well abu talib never fought the muslims he simply disbelieved and was sent to hell anyways.

As far as those verses regarding pride based disbelief...you seem to have confined those to pharoah, iblis, and the Mushrikeen that fought the Muslims. Nobody on the planet now will ever receive as clear of signs as Iblis or Pharoah.

It's almost as if youre saying nobody on the planet now can be a kaffir because there isnt a big enough sign or miracle for them to reject that would warrant pride/arrogance.

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Reply #248 - June 28, 2010, 07:01 PM

@ Kenan

Quote
The problem with you reasoning is that you assume that there is only one prize - which is true in case of lottery but untrue when it comes to life on other planets.

regardless, the analogy is still faulty.. what makes you assume that a prize (life) necessarily must exsit?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Reply #249 - June 28, 2010, 07:04 PM

Quote from: DigDug on June 28, 2010, 07:00 PM
because he was the uncle of the prophet and he helped him out ect.. but simply did not believe in the message or hte prophethood of Muhammad. (basically his disbelief was no different than anyone on this website, no different than Islame or Hassan or Me)

The hadiths tell us that he is in hell even though he helped the prophet and guarded his life from the quraysh pagans ect.. You said the verses 47:8-9 only applied to the people who fought the Muslims. Well abu talib never fought the muslims he simply disbelieved and was sent to hell anyways.

As far as those verses regarding pride based disbelief...you seem to have confined those to pharoah, iblis, and the Mushrikeen that fought the Muslims. Nobody on the planet now will ever receive as clear of signs as Iblis or Pharoah.

It's almost as if youre saying nobody on the planet now can be a kaffir because there isnt a big enough sign or miracle for them to reject that would warrant pride/arrogance.

Abu Talib? I remember we were taught in school that he didn't accept Islam out of peer pressure.

Now, I can't respond to the rest of your post without you even wanting to check some of the many verses I listed in a previous post.

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Reply #250 - June 28, 2010, 07:06 PM

@ DD

again:

there are many many verses which associate Hell with pride, for example:

7:48 (The Men of the Heights calling Hell dwellers proud, implying that they themselves did not committ this sin).

39: 59-60; 39:72; 40:76 (Hell is the abode for the proud).

40: 56 (the proud argues about signs with limited knowledge).

32:15 (only the humble believes).

See also, for example: 37:35; 4:173; 7:36; 16:29; 25:21; 7:75-76; 7:88; 7:133; 16:22-23; 6:93; 40:60; 71:7; 50:24; 74:16, among many.

Hell is for pride/arrogance-based disbelief...

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Reply #251 - June 28, 2010, 07:15 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 07:01 PM
@ Kenan

regardless, the analogy is still faulty.. what makes you assume that a prize (life) necessarily must exsit?

How about the fact that there is life on this planet?
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Reply #252 - June 28, 2010, 07:20 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 07:04 PM
Abu Talib? I remember we were taught in school that he didn't accept Islam out of peer pressure.

The thing was he disbelieved his entire life and he was on his deathbed and muhammad was trying to convince him to become muslim and abu jhal was there and pressured him into remainin "on the religion of his forefethers".

Would this be considered pride/arrogance based disbelief?

Quote
Now, I can't respond to the rest of your post without you even wanting to check some of the many verses I listed in a previous post.

Yes but I (and the scholars) have a different interpretation of these verses. You seem to be saying that the only people in hell know for a fact the message they received is true and chose to reject it knowing they would goto hell

it makes no sense...the only two examples of this are pharoah and Iblis. and Pharoah said "la ilaha ilallah" right before he was going to die but it was too late.

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Reply #253 - June 28, 2010, 07:20 PM

Quote
How about the fact that there is life on this planet?

You're moving in circles Kenan.

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Reply #254 - June 28, 2010, 07:26 PM

Quote from: DigDug on June 28, 2010, 07:20 PM
The thing was he disbelieved his entire life and he was on his deathbed and muhammad was trying to convince him to become muslim and abu jhal was there and pressured him into remainin "on the religion of his forefethers".

Would this be considered pride/arrogance based disbelief?

Well, this is a case where he followed his desires in the end. He desired to keep in line with his customs rather than accepting what he perceived as the truth... I would call this stubborness.

Quote
Yes but I (and the scholars) have a different interpretation of these verses. You seem to be saying that the only people in hell know for a fact the message they received is true and chose to reject it knowing they would goto hell

it makes no sense...the only two examples of this are pharoah and Iblis. and Pharoah said "la ilaha ilallah" right before he was going to die but it was too late.

Ok, I'm copying/pasting from the thread you refuse to read:

Maybe I didn't explain myself well. When someone realizes a truth, any truth, which doesn't happen to agree with their desires, they don't NECESSARILY need to constantly wrestle with accepting it or rejecting it. In many cases, it's only a decision to either suppress it or accept it.

Another example from the Bible, which you can take it as a fictional story if you want, I'm just trying to explain an idea.
When Jesus came Korazin and Bethsaida and he performed his clear miracles, the people of these cities, at least for a moment, must have believed in his clear signs. They realized the truth and decided to suppress it. It was only a decision. It was a momentarily struggle between the truth and their ego, the ego was the victor and the truth was forever suppressed.

The expression: "Intentional disbelief" is an oxymoron when used in the broadest sense.

In order for it to be a meaningful expression, intentional disbelief must be defined by the triumphing of the ego over the truth during the moments of struggle between the truth and the ego.

Once one reaches these critical moments where they have to choose between satisfying their egos or accepting the truth, and they choose the former, the truth becomes a lie.

So the answer is no. No one rejects something they know is true. One must make a conscience decision to murder the truth before they actually can believe it's a lie. Sometimes this takes only a few moments, sometimes it's a long struggle.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Reply #255 - June 28, 2010, 07:37 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 07:26 PM
Well, this is a case where he followed his desires in the end. He desired to keep in line with his customs rather than accepting what he perceived as the truth... I would call this stubborness.

So he does not fall under the category of pride/arrogance and is therefore not in Hell?

Quote
Ok, I'm copying/pasting from the thread you refuse to read:

Maybe I didn't explain myself well. When someone realizes a truth, any truth, which doesn't happen to agree with their desires, they don't NECESSARILY need to constantly wrestle with accepting it or rejecting it. In many cases, it's only a decision to either suppress it or accept it.

Another example from the Bible, which you can take it as a fictional story if you want, I'm just trying to explain an idea.
When Jesus came Korazin and Bethsaida and he performed his clear miracles, the people of these cities, at least for a moment, must have believed in his clear signs. They realized the truth and decided to suppress it. It was only a decision. It was a momentarily struggle between the truth and their ego, the ego was the victor and the truth was forever suppressed.

The expression: "Intentional disbelief" is an oxymoron when used in the broadest sense.

In order for it to be a meaningful expression, intentional disbelief must be defined by the triumphing of the ego over the truth during the moments of struggle between the truth and the ego.

Once one reaches these critical moments where they have to choose between satisfying their egos or accepting the truth, and they choose the former, the truth becomes a lie.

So the answer is no. No one rejects something they know is true. One must make a conscience decision to murder the truth before they actually can believe it's a lie. Sometimes this takes only a few moments, sometimes it's a long struggle.

Ok thanks. But I still don't understand how this disbelief is any different than the people on CEMB? I don't understand how this is any different than people rejecting the clears signs (atleast to you and me) of a creator God?

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Reply #256 - June 28, 2010, 07:40 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 07:20 PM
You're moving in circles Kenan.

I don't really see how.

All I am saying is that there is life on this planet and that there is no reason to suspect that there is no life on billions upon billions of other planets in the whole Universe. There is no reason to suspect that this planet or we are somehow unique. Our solar system is on the fringe of our galaxy which is just one of many billions of galaxies. Nothing special about it at all.

Btw some of my Muslim friends positively assert that there is life on other planets - presumably because of something in the Quran or hadiths?
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Reply #257 - June 28, 2010, 07:41 PM
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Reply #258 - June 28, 2010, 07:47 PM

Quote from: DigDug on June 28, 2010, 07:37 PM
So he does not fall under the category of pride/arrogance and is therefore not in Hell?

When you're stibborn with God, you're proud... In fact, you're deifying yourself too.

Quote
Ok thanks. But I still don't understand how this disbelief is any different than the people on CEMB? I don't understand how this is any different than people rejecting the clears signs (atleast to you and me) of a creator God?

I don't understand your question. Are you saying that CEMBers consciencely killed the truth before believing it to be a lie? How do you know? Were you there reading their minds when they decided that Islam was a lie? Maybe it was an honest decision? How do you know otherwise?

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Reply #259 - June 28, 2010, 07:52 PM

Quote from: Kenan on June 28, 2010, 07:40 PM
I don't really see how.

All I am saying is that there is life on this planet and that there is no reason to suspect that there is no life on billions upon billions of other planets in the whole Universe. There is no reason to suspect that this planet or we are somehow unique. Our solar system is on the fringe of our galaxy which is just one of many billions of galaxies. Nothing special about it at all.

Btw some of my Muslim friends positively assert that there is life on other planets - presumably because of something in the Quran or hadiths?

We are assessing or rather questioning the impossibility/possibility of life in this discussion... so you can't use the question itself as your answer.

The whole idea of questioning the impossibility of life to to question whether Earth sustaining life is a mircale or not... so how can you just highjack the question and use it as your answer?

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Reply #260 - June 28, 2010, 07:57 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 07:47 PM
When you're stibborn with God, you're proud... In fact, you're deifying yourself too.

I don't understand your question. Are you saying that CEMBers consciencely killed the truth before believing it to be a lie? How do you know? Were you there reading their minds when they decided that Islam was a lie? Maybe it was an honest decision? How do you know otherwise?

Thanks for clarifying the situation of Abu Talib.

You are able to say that the disbelief of Abu Talib was based on pride due to his actions/statements. So how is the disbelief of Abu Talib different than Hassan or Islame. Especially considering Abu Talib never believed in the first place.

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Reply #261 - June 28, 2010, 07:59 PM

Quote
You are able to say that the disbelief of Abu Talib was based on pride due to his actions/statements. So how is the disbelief of Abu Talib different than Hassan or Islame. Especially considering Abu Talib never believed in the first place.

According to the story I heard about Abu Abu Talib... that he was convinced but peer pressure is what prevented him.

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Reply #262 - June 28, 2010, 08:02 PM

Ok, DD, I really gotta disappear for a while... but please do stick around! You are indeed very knowledgeble in Islam (Hassan too is knowledgble but he's borrrrred of discussing Islam).

I surely enjoyed this discussion and would like to have more in the near future, inshallah.

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Reply #263 - June 28, 2010, 08:05 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 07:59 PM
According to the story I heard about Abu Abu Talib... that he was convinced but peer pressure is what prevented him.

but this is where your whole theory doesn't make sense to me...If he was truly "convinced" he would have known the reprecussions of him rejecting Islam (going to hell) but he rejected it anyways... simply because he was sacred his peers would think badly of him?

It's like Hassan said...anyone who does this must be crazy.

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Reply #264 - June 28, 2010, 08:06 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 08:02 PM
Ok, DD, I really gotta disappear for a while... but please do stick around! You are indeed very knowledgeble in Islam (Hassan too is knowledgble but he's borrrrred of discussing Islam).

I surely enjoyed this discussion and would like to have more in the near future, inshallah.

you going to saudi now?

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Reply #265 - June 28, 2010, 08:20 PM

Quote from: DigDug on June 28, 2010, 08:05 PM
but this is where your whole theory doesn't make sense to me...If he was truly "convinced" he would have known the reprecussions of him rejecting Islam (going to hell) but he rejected it anyways... simply because he was sacred his peers would think badly of him?

It's like Hassan said...anyone who does this must be crazy.

do you want me to copy/paste again? Ok here it is again:

The expression: "Intentional disbelief" is an oxymoron when used in the broadest sense.

In order for it to be a meaningful expression, intentional disbelief must be defined by the triumphing of the ego over the truth during the moments of struggle between the truth and the ego.

Once one reaches these critical moments where they have to choose between satisfying their egos or accepting the truth, and they choose the former, the truth becomes a lie.

So the answer is no. No one rejects something they know is true. One must make a conscience decision to murder the truth before they actually can believe it's a lie. Sometimes this takes only a few moments, sometimes it's a long struggle.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Reply #266 - June 28, 2010, 08:21 PM

Quote from: DigDug on June 28, 2010, 08:06 PM
you going to saudi now?

In a few days, but I need to take care of things before I leave (cleaning the apt, packing, shipping books, etc, etc).

See ya later, inshallah.

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Reply #267 - June 28, 2010, 08:25 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 06:54 PM
@ Kenan

If that is the case, then the analogy is faulty. In the case of the Grand prize, the event of winning the prize is almost always guaranteed (according to you). So the analogy, in this case, means that life is almost a guaranteed event, it just so happens that planet Earth was the winner.

Well according to Sagan who video calculated exactly this formula (see youtube), he worked out that life was likely to be on several other planets just on the basis of probability. But we are only talking about carbon based life here.

So yes, Earth is a winner in the form of human life from our perspective, certainly not from the perspective of the universe- it couldnt care less and we are inconsequential to it (apart from your prayers on your mat of course).

From the universe's perspective each planet has its own uniqueness and will be a winner in another way and depends on how you are measuring it.

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Reply #268 - June 28, 2010, 08:27 PM

Quote from: Kenan on June 28, 2010, 06:56 PM

To put these odds in perspective, in the US in 2008 there were 1.03 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles traveled. A person living one mile from a retailer selling Powerball tickets is four times as likely to die in an accident traveling to and from that store (two miles round trip) than winning the Powerball jackpot on a $1 play. (Jackpot odds = 1 in 195 million; chance of death from vehicle accident= 2 miles * 1.03 deaths / 100 million miles); 1 jackpot = 2 * 1.03 * 195 million / 100 million = 4.02 deaths.

In that case its a good thing I pay by bet direct debit, eh?

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Reply #269 - June 28, 2010, 08:35 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 07:52 PM
We are assessing or rather questioning the impossibility/possibility of life in this discussion... so you can't use the question itself as your answer.

The whole idea of questioning the impossibility of life to to question whether Earth sustaining life is a mircale or not... so how can you just highjack the question and use it as your answer?

Yeah, I see your point. In this instant I thought that we were simply assessing the possibility of other ex-solar system planets harbouring life.

Quote from: IsLame on June 28, 2010, 08:27 PM
In that case its a good thing I pay by bet direct debit, eh?

Lol! Really smart yeah; you have effectively removed any chance of dying while travelling to and from the store that sell lottery tickets.
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