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 Topic: French parliament approves ban on face veils

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  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #60 - July 14, 2010, 02:05 PM
    Quote from: Mr X on July 14, 2010, 01:39 PM
    that's ok, i'm not hear to correct your failures

    I've already stated serveral times in this thread, no to covering your face, everything else is a matter of personal perference. Maybe you should actually read what im wrting as opposed to making up questions that you'd think i'd like to ask.

    I didnt say that, I didn't allude to that, again, would it be easier to debate yourself? that way you can write your own questions and answer with greater clarity.


    Just thinking what to type...
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #61 - July 14, 2010, 02:06 PM
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #62 - July 14, 2010, 02:12 PM
    Don't think that was called for.
    fuck you
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #63 - July 14, 2010, 03:51 PM
    Quote from: HighOctane on July 14, 2010, 12:27 PM
    Hear, hear!

    I think there are very good reasons for the ban, and I support it and hope we have it here in the UK.

    Yes, women are losing a bit of liberty in how they dress.

    However, there is an underlying dimension that really makes me support this ban: the current system of freedom and liberties in the UK (in my view) do not cater/fit the influx of the vast immigration (and hence mentality/memes) that otherwise would not enter into society since much of that society fought hard for it to be where it is. Moreover, women need not be oppressed and cause division within society. Times should adapt to address the issue of the lack of integration and what is causing it. Part of me has some hesitancy, no doubt, but overall, I think it is needed. In anycase, such a law can be rollbacked.


    UK will not introduce it.
    Thankfully because our political elite have more intelligence than to pander to those who wish to infringe on others rights.

    I do not like the veil.
    But I do not want my Government picking and choosing who has the right to freedom of expression. That is not a liberal democracy to me and is the beginning of a slippery slope. It is for a similar reason I oppose "hate speech"

    All I hear in this thread is people going on about their right to "see" someone when they are talking, how does that supersede someone else's right to express what they view is their culture and religion?
    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #64 - July 14, 2010, 03:52 PM
    +1
    fuck you
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #65 - July 14, 2010, 03:57 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on July 14, 2010, 01:22 PM
    If you want to go out and try and convince Muslim women that they shouldn't wear the burka, then be my guest. But there is no reason why the state should get involved in either banning or even trying to discourage women from wearing the veil. And anyway, banning seems anti-educational. Banning it is the equivalent of "we've done the thinking for you so you don't have to".


    A state may look at the many issues resulting from the use of veils by women. In a democracy the law makers deicide what is best for the overall good of the nation based on hopefully extensive research from various quarters. All I'm saying is that if a country feels the negative effects vastly outweigh the positive they should have the right to legislate on what is best for its entire people. And if I want to live there I should have the decency to accept but still be able to voice my opinion against it.

    Quote
    I'm sorry but you're going to have to do better than "you can't walk around naked, therefore you shouldn't be able to wear the veil". That doesn't follow at all.


    Why not? Its asking for freedoms to act in a way contrary to the norms of the society. Certain societies have no problem with nakedness. Even the Pagans circumabulated the Ka'ba naked at one time. Its a legitimate claim by peoples should they come to live in another society.

    Quote
    I constitute the people of this country and I say no to banning the veil. And since when did my ancestors fight to ban the veil?


    Their fight was for a particular culture and way of life. Where all are equal and no one subjugated. Where people in public can be identified. What is the point of having public cameras to detect crime if people are walking around covered. What if you get caught with a speed camera how is the driver to be identified. We have moved on and if you can make a nonsense of the justice system then what is the point.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #66 - July 14, 2010, 04:02 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on July 14, 2010, 01:26 PM
    Only insofar as they directly and immediately infringe upon the freedoms of others-- I'm all for improving resources for women who are being coerced into wearing this bullshit by their families and want to escape, but the state doesn't have a right to tell a woman who actually wants to wear it that she can't.


    Why not, they can tell people not to wear a balaclava or stockings on their head in public? Hiding yourself makes a mockery of many modern day crime. Of course ther are many other concerns.

    Quote
    How does a government ban do that?


    For me that would be my approach, educating within my circle and via the web.
    If the government makes certain legislation, all I'm saying is that it should be respected, abided by and defeated if its not workable or in the interest of society.

    Quote
    I know you haven't been around much lately a.ghazali, but this kind of argument has been made here many times to attempt to justify restriction of people's religious liberties and it has been refuted many times as a tu quoque argument-- basically that Muslim countries restrict liberty does not justify restricting the liberty of Muslims in the West.


    I did not say that. I said we have to learn to respect and accept the laws and cultures of the land we are in. I did not say because Islamic societies restrict certain liberties then theirs should be restricted in the West. You have a knack of twisting points to create a strawman's argument.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #67 - July 14, 2010, 04:03 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on July 14, 2010, 12:37 PM
    It's not divisive it's just a piece of cloth you wear over your face...

    I'm finding it really disturbing how so many people here want to ban the burka. The real reason people here are against it is because they think Islam is bullshit, and since niqaabis are wearing the veil for religious reasons then you think they shouldn't do that. Look you can debate with a Muslim and challenge their beliefs if you want to but ultimately you can't make their mind up for them. If they want to wear the veil, let them. It's not harming anybody.


    I find it highly disturbing that anyone would compromise on freedom of expression. I agree 100%

    I would bet that if a Muslim country banned another group of peoples freedom of expression as well under the argument of "protecting their culture and way" the same people supporting this ban would oppose that Muslim country when in fact France is pretty much doing the same thing.

    However this is dressed up, this is discrimination in disguise.
    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #68 - July 14, 2010, 04:07 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on July 14, 2010, 03:57 PM
    A state may look at the many issues resulting from the use of veils by women. In a democracy the law makers deicide what is best for the overall good of the nation based on hopefully extensive research from various quarters. All I'm saying is that if a country feels the negative effects vastly outweigh the positive they should have the right to legislate on what is best for its entire people. And if I want to live there I should have the decency to accept but still be able to voice my opinion against it.


    No such right exists for the majority to forcibly impose its will on the minority, violating people's personal sovereignty and natural rights in the process for "the common good". This mindset leads to tyrannical government even in a representative democracy.

    Quote from: a.ghazali on July 14, 2010, 04:02 PM
    Why not, they can tell people not to wear a balaclava or stockings on their head in public?


    I don't think the state has the right to do that either, especially if the people are doing so as an expression of their religious, political, social, cultural, or personal beliefs. Covering your face, in and of itself, does not violate anyone's rights, therefore the state does not have justification to ban it.
    fuck you
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #69 - July 14, 2010, 04:09 PM
    The veil has been depriving of us of hot girls for far too long. Ban it now!  finmad
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #70 - July 14, 2010, 05:33 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on July 14, 2010, 01:01 PM
    Restricting liberty in the name of the "greater good" is the path to tyranny--


    Hence my hesentency over it. Limiting freedom isn't something I like in principle.

    Quote from: Q-Man on July 14, 2010, 01:01 PM
    You wanna do a comparison of how many laws have been enacted in the UK restricting personal freedom in the last 20 years versus how many have been repealed? The Pollyanna trust you statists have in the government to responsibly limit the exercise of its own powers always cracks me up.


    ... I'm interested, where can I see the statistics? Cant seem to Google them. Btw, I'm not a "statist". (Domestically I'm a capitalist at heart, with limited welfare and limited limitations on freedom where applicable).

    Quote from: J4m3z on July 14, 2010, 12:37 PM
    The real reason people here are against it is because they think Islam is bullshit ... If they want to wear the veil, let them. It's not harming anybody.


    Oh but it is.

    - It harms the teenage girl told to not ever dress like an English, to not show her face like an English, to make her feel that in public she will always be different.
    - It harms the young lady to feel that making friends with English people is unlikely and there is no problem with the division, deny her beauty in expressing it and the possibility of a relationship.
    - It harms the middle aged woman who (under a lifetime of feeling subjugated, which the veil plays a part, especially in behaving shyly) will feel great when her 18 year old eldest son enters a 6 year Madrassa.

    It is no coincidence that Sarkozy described the veil "not a sign of religion but a sign of subservience."

    You can be assured it happens up and down the UK, including my own aunts & cousins.  Within my family, I really sense a strong correlation between those who show their face and those who have more confidence/go to university/have jobs. Indeed correlation does not imply causation, but if the Government can do one small thing to even allow girls & women to express their facial expressions, decrease the subjugation in their lives and increase their confidence then I think it is a good thing.

    Quote from: a.ghazali on July 14, 2010, 01:04 PM
    Limits to freedoms are necessary. .. If you want to live in the country you should abide by the laws the poeple of that country have fought for for centuries to implement and the values they want to uphold.


    + 1. As well as not being allowed to be naked in placed, Sikhs can't wear/carry a dagger also.

    Quote from: Mr X on July 14, 2010, 01:19 PM
    I see no reason to ban the burqa ( as catchy a slogan as that maybe), covering the fact though i'm all for that banning.


    Oh yes me too, btw. Veil, not burqa.

    Quote from: Meredith on July 14, 2010, 03:51 PM
    UK will not introduce it.
    Thankfully because our political elite have more intelligence than to pander to those who wish to infringe on others rights.


    UK probably won't introduce it, way too much relativism. I think it is very important to differentiate infringing rights and infringing the integration and livelihood of immigrants/2nd generation citizens.
    Hear ye -->> DONATE TO CEMB

    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #71 - July 14, 2010, 05:49 PM
    Quote from: HighOctane on July 14, 2010, 05:33 PM
    Hence my hesentency over it. Limiting freedom isn't something I like in principle.


    When it comes to freedom "in principle" is less important than in practice. That's the thing about living in a free society-- people want all the benefits of that with none of the drawbacks. Can't have it both ways. Creating and preserving a free society is no easy task and requires the ideological commitment and activity of the citizenry-- way too many people say they value freedom, but live their lives governed by fear and are all too willing to sacrifice their freedom to the state when things get difficult or scary. If people want freedom, they need to do more than say so, they need to grow a fucking spine and demand it for everyone at all times (again, except when such freedom directly and immediately infringes on the freedom of others).

    Quote
    ... I'm interested, where can I see the statistics? Cant seem to Google them.


    I don't know how far back they go, but knock yourself out: http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/ChronIndex.aspx

    I don't need to look it up, I know what the answer is without looking.

    Quote
    Btw, I'm not a "statist".

     

    The evidence suggests otherwise. Most statists don't regard themselves as such.

    Quote
    - It harms the teenage girl told to not ever dress like an English, to not show her face like an English, to make her feel that in public she will always be different.
    - It harms the young lady to feel that making friends with English people is unlikely and there is no problem with the division, deny her beauty in expressing it and the possibility of a relationship.
    - It harms the middle aged woman who (under a lifetime of feeling subjugated, which the veil plays a part, especially in behaving shyly) will feel great when her 18 year old eldest son enters a 6 year Madrassa.

    It is no coincidence that Sarkozy described the veil "not a sign of religion but a sign of subservience."

    You can be assured it happens up and down the UK, including my own aunts & cousins.  Within my family, I really sense a strong correlation between those who show their face and those who have more confidence/go to university/have jobs. Indeed correlation does not imply causation, but if the Government can do one small thing to even allow girls & women to express their facial expressions, decrease the subjugation in their lives and increase their confidence then I think it is a good thing.


    Oh, absolutely, which is why the state should commit more resources and energy into assisting those who do not wish to wear it but are forced to, or perhaps even impose a ban on minors wearing it. But a blanket ban on full-grown women who can exercise the choice not to wear it and to leave their family and community if necessary is not justified.

    Quote
    + 1. As well as not being allowed to be naked in placed,


    As long as it's in an area with no children, I don't think the state is justified in prohibiting this, either.

    Quote
    Sikhs can't wear/carry a dagger also.


    I also think this is wrong, and in addition to being an infringement on their right of religious expression/practice, it is an infringement on their natural right of self-defense.
    fuck you
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #72 - July 14, 2010, 06:14 PM
    I am totally neutral about such bans.

    On one hand I think that having the state decide what to wear or not to wear is quite illogical.
    On the other hand, there is no country in the world that I know of that does not impose some form of clothing guidelines.
    And most people seem perfectly ok with such restrictions.
    But they go nuts when such restrictions interfere with some currently major religion :S
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #73 - July 14, 2010, 06:37 PM
    Quote from: HighOctane on July 14, 2010, 05:33 PM
    Btw, I'm not a "statist". (Domestically I'm a capitalist at heart, with limited welfare and limited limitations on freedom where applicable).

    Bush and Palin are capitalists at heart too. Can't say they're not statist.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #74 - July 14, 2010, 06:40 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on July 14, 2010, 05:49 PM

    Oh, absolutely, which is why the state should commit more resources and energy into assisting those who do not wish to wear it but are forced to,



    In reality how would this be practical?
    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #75 - July 14, 2010, 06:47 PM
    Woman chooses not to wear burqua but fears repercussions from family for refusing t do so, makes the admittedly difficult decision to leave her family (which would probably be a good choice for anyone in a family that would enforce the veil, even if the ban prevents them from doing so, course that could mean more women are just kept at home all the time), she goes to social services, they provide her with a new home, financial assistance, education, job training and even a new name/identity if necessary. Then, if the woman wants to press charges, the state can press charges against the family for any attempted physical coercion or threats of such.
    fuck you
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #76 - July 14, 2010, 06:52 PM
    Quote from: HighOctane on July 14, 2010, 05:33 PM

    Oh but it is.

    - It harms the teenage girl told to not ever dress like an English, to not show her face like an English, to make her feel that in public she will always be different.
    - It harms the young lady to feel that making friends with English people is unlikely and there is no problem with the division, deny her beauty in expressing it and the possibility of a relationship.
    - It harms the middle aged woman who (under a lifetime of feeling subjugated, which the veil plays a part, especially in behaving shyly) will feel great when her 18 year old eldest son enters a 6 year Madrassa.

    It is no coincidence that Sarkozy described the veil "not a sign of religion but a sign of subservience."


    You're talking about when Muslim girls are forced to wear the veil by their Muslim parents. Q-Man already addressed this. The way to counter it is by allowing these girls to get support if they need it. You seem to think the way to counter it is by forcing all Muslim girls NOT to wear it. That isn't true.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #77 - July 14, 2010, 06:53 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on July 14, 2010, 02:12 PM
    Don't think that was called for.


    Grow a pair  Roll Eyes
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #78 - July 14, 2010, 06:54 PM
    Quote from: Mr X on July 14, 2010, 06:40 PM
    In reality how would this be practical?


    In the same way that it is practical for abused children to get support through Childline.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #79 - July 14, 2010, 06:57 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on July 14, 2010, 06:53 PM
    Grow a pair  Roll Eyes


    Well, it was a bit uncalled for.  Just cool down, its only the Internet.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #80 - July 14, 2010, 06:59 PM
    what I'm hearing is a win win. if she's forced to wear the veil when going out, she'll be forced not to by law. If she's so oppressed that she's not allowed to leave the house without the veil, if she doesn't want to live that way she goes to social services.

    The options are already there without this law in place. It's merely forcing her families hand if the law is in place. In reality i'm not sure how they would enforce a woman not to go out whether it's to go to work, pick up the kids, get the groceries or what have you. And if that family is so unhappy as to consider moving to another country what chance did this person ever have?

    I don't see a viable alternative solution. the options are leave it as it is, or change the law.
    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #81 - July 14, 2010, 07:29 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on July 14, 2010, 06:57 PM
    Well, it was a bit uncalled for.  Just cool down, its only the Internet.


    Lol I didn't lose my cool. I just can't be assed with logically ridiculous and ad hominem argument.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #82 - July 14, 2010, 07:31 PM
    I'm still sitting on the fence on this issue, but I would have no complaints if France or any other country banned the burka/niqab in public places.

    The main reason is security.
    .
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #83 - July 14, 2010, 07:44 PM
    Why should the main reason be security? You can pack a rucksack full of explosives, can't you? Why not ban them as well?

    My feelings on this issue are ambivalent. I don't really welcome such a ban, because it restricts a freedom, but on the other hand it's something that nobody should shed a tear over.
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
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    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #84 - July 14, 2010, 07:56 PM
    Quote from: Aziz on July 14, 2010, 07:44 PM
    Why should the main reason be security? You can pack a rucksack full of explosives, can't you? Why not ban them as well?

    My feelings on this issue are ambivalent. I don't really welcome such a ban, because it restricts a freedom, but on the other hand it's something that nobody should shed a tear over.


    Niqaab wearers will shed a tear over it ofcourse.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #85 - July 14, 2010, 07:56 PM
    Quote from: Aziz on July 14, 2010, 07:44 PM
    Why should the main reason be security? You can pack a rucksack full of explosives, can't you? Why not ban them as well?

    C'mon now Aziz the rucksack comparison is quite bad.  Besides, you can identify the person carrying the rucksack.  You cannot identify an individual whose face is covered.

    I honestly think the "oh it's my religion!" argument is clouding this issue.  ANY other face covering would not be allowed in public places, so the burka/niqab shouldn't be either.

    You know how we had a Draw Muhammad day?  I think we should have a "Wear A Balaclava Day" too just to see if the burka defenders feel comfortable with non-Muslim men and women walking around with their faces covered... in shops, in schools, in hospitals, in airports, in train stations etc.

    .
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #86 - July 14, 2010, 07:57 PM
    Quote from: Shahid Raza on July 14, 2010, 07:31 PM

    The main reason is security.


    Probably the best reason, but still not enough.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #87 - July 14, 2010, 07:58 PM
    "wear a mask day" would be awesome and would completely;ly freak out everyone. Good job shahid. organise the flash mob

    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #88 - July 14, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Quote from: Shahid Raza on July 14, 2010, 07:56 PM
    You know how we had a Draw Muhammad day?  I think we should have a "Wear A Balaclava Day" too just to see if the burka defenders feel comfortable with non-Muslim men and women walking around with their faces covered... in shops, in schools, in hospitals, in airports, in train stations etc.


    Lol that sounds awesome!
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #89 - July 14, 2010, 07:59 PM
    Quote from: Meredith on July 14, 2010, 03:51 PM
    UK will not introduce it.
    Thankfully because our political elite have more intelligence than to pander to those who wish to infringe on others rights.

    I do not like the veil.
    But I do not want my Government picking and choosing who has the right to freedom of expression. That is not a liberal democracy to me and is the beginning of a slippery slope. It is for a similar reason I oppose "hate speech"

    All I hear in this thread is people going on about their right to "see" someone when they are talking, how does that supersede someone else's right to express what they view is their culture and religion?


    This right as you call it is , in fact, a visceral expectation of communication that will not be gainsaid. All primates, of all species, have the expectation that they will communicate in some way by body language with any other approaching member of their own species with the aim of unmasking  intent and predictive behaviour. It preceded the development of speech and probably informed the evolution of our facial muscles (Ref Charles Darwin). A closer approach usually meant some form of touching or ritual grooming, nowadays , in  humans this is expressed as the hand shake, rubbing of noses, air kissing, bowing, etc. this is all aimed at reducing aggression in the other.  Facial muscles, at close range, play an very important role in this process, especially the smile, the frown, the deadeye and the stare (of various meanings).
    You cover your facial muscles at your peril because people are immediately distrustful of your intention and put on guard before you even get the chance to open your mouth. Why initiate each encounter at a disadvantage? It doesn't make sense, unless you want to be deliberately confrontational, in which case they are right to distrust your intentions.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
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