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 Topic: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?

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  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #30 - September 02, 2010, 11:15 PM
    Quote
    i didn't say they have to be born - but even if they had always existed, i'd still like to know how they came to be - i find it impossible to think that laws as intelligent and structured and mathematicaly complex as these 'just happened to exist'. their existence needs to be explained either scientifically or supernaturally.

    Are the laws complex, or is it just the mathematical language that we convert them to does not suit them?

    tbh I dont see laws as elegant or beautiful anyway (and I think even more non-scientifically orientated people would agree), I think that is our awe & amazement that makes them like that.

    Quote
    'just happened to exist'. their existence needs to be explained either scientifically or supernaturally

    lets take the law of Gravity, isnt mass attracting mass a good enough explanation for you?  What kind of thing are you waiting for?
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  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #31 - September 02, 2010, 11:26 PM
    by what measure are these laws complex? by the storage constraints of the human brain?
  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #32 - September 03, 2010, 03:15 AM
    they could only be considered complex because we take the time and find it hard to understand them.
    they wouldn't be complex if we weren't around to say so.
  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #33 - September 03, 2010, 04:14 AM
    Complexity, simplicity, fine tuned, perfection are all terms relative to human experience.
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
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  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #34 - September 03, 2010, 09:18 AM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 09:45 PM
    these books were only meant for those particular times perhaps and therefore were describing things from a 7th century etc. perspective?


    So with the lack of messengers from god this means humans have now reached a suitable level of perfection from which we no longer need guidance, or is it more accurate to say that there are no more messengers because we are no longer ignorant enough to fall for their bullshit?

    Why would these Arabs get special treatment at a time when all they could do is kill each other with swords, but now that we have nuclear weapons and a lot of international wars going on we note a distinct lack of god's intervention?

    Sorry, your hypothesis makes no sense.
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  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #35 - September 03, 2010, 09:25 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 02, 2010, 09:16 PM
    I dont understand how the laws can change from one universe to the next  Huh?   For me it'll change my concept of physics should it be true  Huh?

    However whether proven or not I fail to see how it debunks theist arguments, other than in fact strengthen them.  If science can be rubbished like this, then the belief that their is a god (or Gods for each universe) fine tuning each universe becomes all the more plausible


    If there were one universe and it was perfect, or multiple expansions all also perfect then the argument could be made "Who did the fine tuning?"  However if you have an incomprehensibly large number of expansions with slightly varying tuning then it shows that we just happen to be in one of the well tuned ones whereas there are many others not well tuned.

    It's like the old "Goldilocks zone" argument for Earth.  If we didn't have another 7 planets in our solar system it would have more credibility, but when we observe our solar system we see many other planets not in this "magic zone" and then when we look at the universe on a much wider scale we see not only multiple planets in this magic zone but an even more massive number of planets that are not.

    Or to put it another way.  It's like throwing a box full of little praying dolls in the air and then pointing out the minority which face Mecca and saying "There, Muhammad MUST have been God's messenger!" - given enough random shit + the ability to selectively ignore data you can see a pattern for anything.
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  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #36 - September 03, 2010, 10:59 AM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 11:06 PM
    i didn't say they have to be born - but even if they had always existed, i'd still like to know how they came to be - i find it impossible to think that laws as intelligent and structured and mathematicaly complex as these 'just happened to exist'. their existence needs to be explained either scientifically or supernaturally.

    .................and yet you have absolutely no problem with a creator deity just existing.  Tongue
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  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #37 - September 03, 2010, 12:33 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 09:36 PM
    all i guess, incuding aspects of hinduism, bhudism, judaism etc. i think they all potentially might contain truths.

    But like it was pointed out earlier, they are sometimes not consistent with each other.  And why ignore all the 100s of other religions that are older than 2000 years? 
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  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #38 - September 03, 2010, 01:54 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 10:56 PM
    when it comes to the laws of physical reality i.e. the laws of physics - it appears there are no imperfections (although there are things we do yet fully understand). while it could be argued that they only seem beautiful because humans define themselves what is beautiful, what is undeniable is that the laws are incredibly intelligent, ordered, coherent and sometimes mathematically complex (sometimes so complex that we not have complete mathematical formulations but only approximate equations i.e. as in string theory - although this theory is still very much a work in progress). What I like asking is where would these laws themselves have come from - can science itself explain where science came from or is their a supernatural explanation i.e. the laws of science were created by some outside agent. If science can explain it, then did these laws 'evolve' over some period of time (the mechanism for this would need to be something very radical) or did they all happen to pop into existence all at once?


    How can science explain where scientific laws came from? If indeed they had to have 'come from somewhere', it must have been by non-scientific means. If you argue, as you have before, that it makes no sense to ponder over how God brought the laws into existance, because it is beyond our comprehension, then it follows that it makes no sense to ponder how they came into existence at all.
  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #39 - September 03, 2010, 02:27 PM
    A scientific law isn't like a civil law where there was a law maker.  It's merely an observation of reality.  If for example we some how discovered there was absolutely no god then one law would be that the universe was not made by god....you can't then ask "Yeah, but who made that law?" Smiley
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  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #40 - September 03, 2010, 03:38 PM
    Yep, by asking the very question who made the law, you are biasing the outcome by pre-supposing there is a creator. 

    In any case, Ive never understood why our monkey brains even have the capability of figuring something like that out. 

    Thats why society (imo) has always resorted to a God, along with all the trimmings that might come with it.
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  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #41 - September 03, 2010, 05:02 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 03, 2010, 12:33 PM
    But like it was pointed out earlier, they are sometimes not consistent with each other.  And why ignore all the 100s of other religions that are older than 2000 years? 


    most of it is man-made no doubt. what i'm saying is perhaps some of it was divinely inspired. and who says i'm ignoring the 100s of religions older than 200 years.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #42 - September 03, 2010, 05:09 PM
    Which bits do you think are divinely inspired?
  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #43 - September 03, 2010, 05:12 PM
    divine inspiration has implications, most important one being, a god that interacts / cares.
    which is while a comforting thought to have, a very tough thing to argue.
  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #44 - September 03, 2010, 05:23 PM
    From what I understand, divine inspiration is man-made not of divine origin, it is just using the idea of god as inspiration for writing "good" advice or ascribing a god to your experiences. To me therefore that is under the influence of human frailty and is not perfect.
  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #45 - September 03, 2010, 05:24 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on September 03, 2010, 05:09 PM
    Which bits do you think are divinely inspired?

    And more importantly what proof does he have that it was divinely inspired? What proof does he have that the "first cause" of the Universe even cares about the events on the small speck of dust called The Earth?
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  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #46 - September 03, 2010, 05:40 PM
    Quote from: burdenofbeing on September 03, 2010, 05:12 PM
    divine inspiration has implications, most important one being, a god that interacts / cares.
    which is while a comforting thought to have, a very tough thing to argue.



    ok. i guess my problem is that if a God does exist and is responsible for all creation, I have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that he just created us and just pissed off without caring about us or all the injustices that happen in this world. this would implicate an unjust God which simply doesn't ring true to me (assuming he exists)
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #47 - September 03, 2010, 05:44 PM
    Why are you assuming that God's default position should be just?
  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #48 - September 03, 2010, 05:44 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 03, 2010, 05:40 PM
    ok. i guess my problem is that if a God does exist and is responsible for all creation, I have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that he just created us and just pissed off without caring about us or all the injustices that happen in this world. this would implicate an unjust God which simply doesn't ring true to me (assuming he exists)

    What about a God that tortures people eternally for being born into and brainwashed into the wrong religion; does that seem just to you?
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  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #49 - September 03, 2010, 05:47 PM
    *Introduces Godisnotgreat to AbuYunus*. This should be fun.  dance
  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #50 - September 03, 2010, 05:48 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on September 03, 2010, 05:44 PM
    Why are you assuming that God's default position should be just?


    it's just an assumption
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #51 - September 03, 2010, 05:48 PM
    it would at least imply a god that is above all that stuff.

    what you are hoping for has too many hoops to jump through.
    if you think there are injustices in this world, there you go, a god has let injustices take place, even though he cares.
    even though he interacts and is a god, he can't give his message clearly.
    and many other things, I'm sure you have already heard.
  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #52 - September 03, 2010, 05:49 PM
    Quote from: GodIsNotGreat on September 03, 2010, 05:44 PM
    What about a God that tortures people eternally for being born into and brainwashed into the wrong religion; does that seem just to you?


    i don't believe in a classical concept of hell i.e. fire, eternity, non-beleivers going to hell etc...
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #53 - September 03, 2010, 05:56 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on September 03, 2010, 05:09 PM
    Which bits do you think are divinely inspired?


    doing good to others, bettering ourselves, seeking knowledge and elightenment, bettering humanity. these things might be common sense and common decency nowadays but it perhaps was not always so i.e. centuries and millenia ago
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #54 - September 03, 2010, 06:00 PM
    morality?
    at the root of all things good, there is selfishness.
    morality starts very very early, and it isn't even limited to humans.

  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #55 - September 03, 2010, 06:08 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 03, 2010, 05:40 PM
    ok. i guess my problem is that if a God does exist and is responsible for all creation, I have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that he just created us and just pissed off without caring about us or all the injustices that happen in this world. this would implicate an unjust God which simply doesn't ring true to me (assuming he exists)


    Sounds like a happily reared child explaining to an orphan why parents exist.

    Seriously though, when a scientist makes a bacteria culture in a lab do they care what happens to each individual e-coli or are they only interested in the overall outcome after X generations?
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  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #56 - September 03, 2010, 06:09 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 03, 2010, 05:56 PM
    doing good to others, bettering ourselves, seeking knowledge and elightenment, bettering humanity. these things might be common sense and common decency nowadays but it perhaps was not always so i.e. centuries and millenia ago


    So why are piranha nice to each other, and why does it make more sense to kill people who are a threat rather than being nice to them?
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  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #57 - September 03, 2010, 06:43 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 03, 2010, 05:02 PM
    most of it is man-made no doubt. what i'm saying is perhaps some of it was divinely inspired. and who says i'm ignoring the 100s of religions older than 200 years.

    2000 years, not 200.

    And in any case what makes you think perhaps some of it was divinely inspired, when you appreciate that human beings do have the capacity & ability to invent some religions (unless you are saying perhaps some of what David Koresh was also saying was divinely inspired).

    Without anything concrete to go off, then how are we supposed to know?  Do you?
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  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #58 - September 03, 2010, 07:13 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 03, 2010, 06:43 PM
    And in any case what makes you think perhaps some of it was divinely inspired, when you appreciate that human beings do have the capacity & ability to invent some religions


    Indeed, and why would someone get divine inspiration and then make up some additional stuff?  And why is god incapable of giving us a message in such a way as to make it easy for us to see that this bit is from god and that bit was made up?

    If I had a time machine I could make a much more convincing job of making a message look as though it was from god.

    A bit piss poor really, isn't it?
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  • Re: Ye cannae change the laws of physics - Or can you?
     Reply #59 - September 04, 2010, 02:59 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 03, 2010, 05:56 PM
    doing good to others, bettering ourselves, seeking knowledge and elightenment, bettering humanity. these things might be common sense and common decency nowadays but it perhaps was not always so i.e. centuries and millenia ago


    And you see no other way for these traits to have come about?
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