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 Topic: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat

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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #90 - September 27, 2010, 07:49 PM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on September 27, 2010, 07:02 PM
    Years of immersing oneself in the finer points of fiqh teaches one that at the very core of halal butchery is that a creature must be fully conscious throughout the ordeal. The Islamic code roundly forbids even the consumption of animals who have died a natural death.

    If the ululating towelhead consecrates the slaughter of the poor beast to Allah when it is not fully and painfully conscious, the ritual is mere sound and fury signifying nothing.


    You should write that to the Daily Mail. They are the ones who get all worked up about NZ lamb meat that they (and obviously a lot of muslims) consider halal.
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #91 - September 27, 2010, 07:51 PM
    Quote from: z10
    How do we know that plants don't have feelings MAB?
    I agree that to a large extent vegeterianism makes sense, but why is the line drawn at plants? perhaps we should only eat fruits and nuts that fall of trees without our intervention? After all, plants are being killed too.


    The purpose of most plants, from which we eat, is to provide, fruits, seed, grains, etc. which is meant to be eaten by animals/man and later deposited elsewhere to grow. for if itfell under the tree it would not grow.

    There is no need to kill the apple tree to get the apple.

    Plants that have a shot live, ie. produce their grains, (wheat, rice, etc) would die off anyway because that is the purpose of their live, seed and then die.

    Plants such as roots, potatoes, casava, etc die back after the tubers have matured.

    Plants do have feelings. Experiments show their reactions to fire, cuts, even loud noises. There's a good book called, The Secret Life of Plants.

    The suffering of plants is on such a minimal scale as comapred the the reactions from sentient beings which can understand the fate that they heading for when in the slaughter house witnessing the death of their fellow creatures.

    Animals also, because of today's farming methods suffer their entire lives confined in extremely horrendous conditions, living just a fraction of their expected lifespan.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #92 - September 27, 2010, 07:52 PM
    Quote from: z10 on September 27, 2010, 07:34 PM
    How do we know that plants don't have feelings MAB?
    I agree that to a large extent vegeterianism makes sense, but why is the line drawn at plants? perhaps we should only eat fruits and nuts that fall off trees without our intervention? After all, plants are being killed too.


    I'd think that it's a pretty safe bet that plants can't feel pain, and particular not in the same way that a sentient being does.

    And that's the whole crux of Singer's argument: preventing the suffering of sentient beings. Not only that, but he applies this notion consistently to ethics pertaining to both humans and animals.

    As for the suffering of plants; we don't even know if they are capable of suffering, and they probably aren't. On the other hand, we know for a fact that humans and other intelligent animals definitely do, and so, they are not in the same category as plants, with regards to the capacity to suffer.
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #93 - September 27, 2010, 07:52 PM
    Quote from: NineBerry on September 27, 2010, 03:52 PM
    Both exist.


    One exists as a physical piece of communication technology. The other exists as a contested and loaded word that is used to stifle criticism of a religion.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #94 - September 27, 2010, 07:52 PM
    q
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #95 - September 27, 2010, 07:56 PM
    Quote from: billy on September 27, 2010, 07:52 PM
    One exists as a physical piece of communication technology. The other exists as a contested and loaded word that is used to stifle criticism of a religion.


    Ehm. No. Islamophobia exists. Not only as a word but as a phenomenon. Dh is an example of that shows that it exists. So are sites like Islamwatch or political groups like the EDL or Wilders' "Freedom Party".

    I do not  dispute that the word is also used to smear legitimate criticism of Islam as a religion. But that doesn't make the real phenomenon non-existent.
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #96 - September 27, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Are NPCs in computer games sentient?
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #97 - September 27, 2010, 07:58 PM
    BTW: Can we please split off the vegetarianism and the islamophobia debates before they actually start?
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #98 - September 27, 2010, 08:00 PM
    Quote from: NineBerry on September 27, 2010, 07:47 PM
    Well, I have heard that differently. I have been told that Muslims are not allowed to eat kosher meat because the meat was slaughtered calling the name of a different god because today's Jews don't follow their original religion.

    there are 2 schols of thought on this, and like you say one school says that they have to give the quranic blessing as they slaughter the animal and others say Jewish meat is ok..
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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #99 - September 27, 2010, 08:01 PM
    Quote from: billy on September 27, 2010, 07:52 PM
    The other exists as a contested and loaded word that is used to stifle criticism of a religion.


    Just like anti-semitism and racism in general. Figments of our imagination invented by a nefarious cabal of militant blacks and marxist jews.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #100 - September 27, 2010, 08:02 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on September 27, 2010, 07:52 PM
    I'd think that it's a pretty safe bet that plants can't feel pain, and particular not in the same way that a sentient being does.

    And that's the whole crux of Singer's argument: preventing the suffering of sentient beings. Not only that, but he applies this notion consistently to ethics pertaining to both humans and animals.

    As for the suffering of plants; we don't even know if they are capable of suffering, and they probably aren't. On the other hand, we know for a fact that humans and other intelligent animals definitely do, and so, they are not in the same category as plants, with regards to the capacity to suffer.


    I can understand the view. However, it seems to me that a moral stance is being taken but the death of a living thing (be it a rice plant even) is taken as morally neutral. Is it really? can we be so sure?
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #101 - September 27, 2010, 08:03 PM
    Quote from: z10 on September 27, 2010, 07:34 PM
    How do we know that plants don't have feelings MAB?
    I agree that to a large extent vegeterianism makes sense, but why is the line drawn at plants? perhaps we should only eat fruits and nuts that fall off trees without our intervention? After all, plants are being killed too.

    Why draw the line here @ fruit & nuts?  If you assume the universe is sentient, then isnt this matter sentient too?

    How about drinking water and killing the bacteria in it through by our digestion process?  
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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #102 - September 27, 2010, 08:04 PM
    ofcourse Islame, there is a whole array to consider here if one is going to start being moral
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #103 - September 27, 2010, 08:06 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on September 27, 2010, 08:01 PM
    Just like anti-semitism and racism in general. Figments of our imagination invented by a nefarious cabal of militant blacks and marxist jews.


    Not like that at all.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #104 - September 27, 2010, 08:08 PM
    .
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #105 - September 27, 2010, 08:08 PM
    Quote from: NineBerry on September 27, 2010, 07:56 PM
    I do not  dispute that the word is also used to smear legitimate criticism of Islam as a religion.


    Thank you.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #106 - September 27, 2010, 08:09 PM
    @z10 & Islame
    You might enjoy Dawkins interviewing of Singer in the following video, it raises points relevant to what you're discussing.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYYNY2oKVWU
    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #107 - September 27, 2010, 08:10 PM
    Quote from: billy on September 27, 2010, 08:06 PM
    Not like that at all.


    Aha.

    So, when Nazis argue that Judaism is not a religion but a vile barbaric political culture and that kosher slaughter is an example of that, this is anti-semitism.

    When people argue that Islam is not a religion but a vile barbaric political culture and that halal slaughter is an example of that, this is Huh? what Huh?.
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #108 - September 27, 2010, 08:12 PM

    Here's a dancing bunny as the prize for invoking Godwins Law, NineBerry, congartulations  Afro

     Prize -------> bunny

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #109 - September 27, 2010, 08:14 PM
    .
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #110 - September 27, 2010, 08:16 PM
    .
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #111 - September 27, 2010, 08:17 PM
    Quote from: billy on September 27, 2010, 08:06 PM
    Not like that at all.




    Sure billy. I like you, but its kinda sad. Just saying.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #112 - September 27, 2010, 08:17 PM
    Quote from: billy on September 27, 2010, 08:12 PM
    Here's a dancing bunny as the prize for invoking Godwins Law, NineBerry, congartulations  Afro

     Prize -------> bunny




    Lame. He made a valid point. Answer it.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #113 - September 27, 2010, 08:22 PM
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on September 27, 2010, 08:08 PM
    False analogy: Blacks and Jews represent a race. Islam is a system of belief which commands a global following as Muslims never tire of reminding us. Ideas are subject to vigorous debate. One's biology is not.


    I never analogized the idea. I'm analogizing the complete denial that some of you seem to be engaging in. There is such a thing as Islamophobia. Period.

    Accusations of antisemtism is also used as a club to beat all criticism of Isreal with. That doesn't mean antisemitism doesn't exist. Hating Islam for the sake of hating Islam exists, as does using "islamophobia" to silence critics of it. It's not black and white.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #114 - September 27, 2010, 08:23 PM
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 27, 2010, 08:09 PM
    @z10 & Islame
    You might enjoy Dawkins interviewing of Singer in the following video, it raises points relevant to what you're discussing.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYYNY2oKVWU

    Thanks, might watch it later..
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on September 27, 2010, 08:14 PM
    There is no great problem here. Ethical obligations derive from the extent to which one can help or harm a thing. Moral consideration is owed only to creatures endowed with sentience, that is to say with the capacity to experience sensation. Such creatures are found only in the animal kingdom. The universe at large, the plants, the forests and the inanimate objects are dead and inert. No ethical obligations arise.

    Thats the point - where do you draw the line for sentience. z10 might argue the whole universe is sentient, you might argue only the animal kingdom is sentient.  btw what do you consider as the animal kingdom, insects. worms, flies, lice, lizards, bees, ants, ameobas too?
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #115 - September 27, 2010, 08:24 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on September 27, 2010, 08:17 PM
    Sure billy. I like you


    Phew!

    I'm relieved to hear that dude.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #116 - September 27, 2010, 08:25 PM
    Quote from: billy on September 27, 2010, 08:12 PM
    Here's a dancing bunny as the prize for invoking Godwins Law, NineBerry, congartulations  Afro

     Prize -------> bunny


    It had been fulfilled before. Answer the question.
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #117 - September 27, 2010, 08:27 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on September 27, 2010, 08:22 PM
    It's not black and white.


    In other words, it is a contested and loaded word that is often used to stifle criticism of a religion. We are in agreement then.

    So whats up?




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #118 - September 27, 2010, 08:27 PM
    .
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #119 - September 27, 2010, 08:29 PM
    Mount A Bison, please fix the quote. I didn't say that.
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
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