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Theme Changer

 Topic: Are vegetarians really ethical?

 (Read 18750 times)
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  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #90 - September 30, 2010, 09:10 AM

    You are fortunate that you live in an area where your food avoids going through much of the horrors that persist for the vast majority.

    The health aspects are generally scientifically well supported. They're not just myths on vegan websites!

    In November 2007, the World Cancer Research Fund International and the American Institute for Cancer Research published a 537 page report ‘Food, Nutrition, Physical Activity and the Prevention of Cancer: A Global Perspective’. The 10 recommendations which are a summary of that report are reproduced in my March 2008 newsletter ‘Prevention of Cancer’.
     
    The report recommends that to prevent cancer in particular, as well arterial diseases like coronary heart disease and stroke, and diabetes, we should “Eat mostly foods of plant origin” and “Limit intake of red meat and avoid processed meat”.

    Statistics clearly show an increased liability to get any of those diseases if you are a meat eater as opposed to a vegetarian.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #91 - September 30, 2010, 09:14 AM

    Ahem. I'll point out that the quotes you gave say "Eat mostly foods of plant origin” and “Limit intake of red meat....”.

    In other words, your source is not saying to have a completely meat free diet. It is saying what I have been saying all along.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #92 - September 30, 2010, 09:41 AM

    Ok and a few things about this:
    No, we aren't really. The point is where do you want to draw the line and on what basis?


    We draw the line when we are threatened. When our life is at stake we defend it the best way we know how. Its not about drawing a line and saying everything above this line we shouldn't kill, but everything below that line can be killed with impunity.

    Quote
    Not all of them, or insects or anything else, are predators or even parasites. The majority of them are little or no threat to us. Why should their lives be less valuable? Because they are less like us?


    I did not say we could kill all insects. Only those that threaten us. It is not matter of value all life matters and should be respected. Its whether they pose a threat to our lives. If an insect merrily live their lives with no danger to us, I never suggested its ok to kill it.

    And this issue with value. Let me state that I do not think all life have the same value. Of course not. I view your life as more valuavle than a wasp. If a child was drowning and a cat was drowning its obvious which one I'd run to save if I could only save one.

    We may kill mosquitoes if they are in our vicinity and likely to spread malaria. But that is an exception because of a threat. It does not gives us a right to go kill any old insect.

    Quote
    So on that basis, there would be no difference between killing a harmless insect and killing a cow. In fact if the cow was being killed for a reason (food) and the insect was being killed just "because it's a bug" then perhaps the latter is more of a problem in ethical terms.


    Its quite a connundrum depending on which way you look at it. Yes it is wrong to kill a bug for no reason. However to kill a cow for food I would support if there were no alternative food available in the particular situation. However to kill a cow for food when ample food stuff is available from sources that involve no suffering to any sentient creature I see as a greater ethical problem. The conscious level of a cow is far superior to that of a mosquito. The suffering that would be esperienced is far greater than a bug. The pain you cause is far greater.

    Not sure if you watched the videos on the other thread but the killing of the cow if you compared it to the swatting of a bug will leave no doubt which is the more cruel. And all I say is that if it is not necessary, then why put an animal through it. It it is only to satisfy our taste buds then its more a case our our enjoyment as opposed to looking out for the well being of another creature.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #93 - September 30, 2010, 09:44 AM

    Ahem. I'll point out that the quotes you gave say "Eat mostly foods of plant origin” and “Limit intake of red meat....”.

    In other words, your source is not saying to have a completely meat free diet. It is saying what I have been saying all along.


    Yes I know. The report is targeted at the general public and hence besed on the current zeitgeist that would be the most appropriate words. However the trend in all these studies show that the more you cut out, right down to none at all will provide the best results.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #94 - September 30, 2010, 09:46 AM

    Ahem. I'll point out that the quotes you gave say "Eat mostly foods of plant origin” and “Limit intake of red meat....”.

    In other words, your source is not saying to have a completely meat free diet. It is saying what I have been saying all along.

    I view animal flesh (at least red meat, particularly when cooked) generally as being unhealthy in the sense that whilst it does provide some nutrition it also has negative impacts on the body in the long-term, especially when consumed excessively (as many/most people do). I have access to cleaner sources of protein, iron, B12, etc, which are less impactful on the environment and cheaper to me in most instances. For those reasons I view it as a decadent luxury in Western societies, to borrow a Q-Man'ism. I'd recommend William Li's TED Talk on fighting cancer through better eating whilst paying attention to the foods he recommends and others to avoid. There's also evidence that a vegan diet is beneficial to those with existing conditions such as Type II Diabetes.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #95 - September 30, 2010, 09:55 AM

    However to kill a cow for food when ample food stuff is available from sources that involve no suffering to any sentient creature I see as a greater ethical problem. The conscious level of a cow is far superior to that of a mosquito. The suffering that would be esperienced is far greater than a bug. The pain you cause is far greater.
    Not sure if you watched the videos on the other thread but the killing of the cow if you compared it to the swatting of a bug will leave no doubt which is the more cruel. And all I say is that if it is not necessary, then why put an animal through it. It it is only to satisfy our taste buds then its more a case our our enjoyment as opposed to looking out for the well being of another creature.

    No. If you're talking about traditional halal slaughter methods as in those vids then you have a point about pain, but not if we are talking about modern western methods of slaughter. They literally never know what hit them. They die far easier than many people do.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #96 - September 30, 2010, 09:59 AM

    I view animal flesh (at least red meat, particularly when cooked) generally as being unhealthy

    That's your view. Others disagree.

    As a side issue, I find some of the definitions of "vegetarian" hilarious. People call themselves vegetarians if they don't eat mammals.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #97 - September 30, 2010, 10:04 AM

    And while we're at it, some notes on Vitamin B12 deficiency.


    As a vegetarian, I consume milk and related products so not a major problem for me really. Today many products are fortified with B12 so it can be obtained readily from many sources.
    However in years gone by, before the processing of foods to ultra hygenic standards, people would easily obtain adequate B12 in their diet by simply eating fruits, veg of the trees which would contain traces of insect faeces rich in B12. Studies in many parts of the world where meat is not consumed regularly or at all show that there is no B12 deficiency, simply because of bacteria deposited by insects.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #98 - September 30, 2010, 10:05 AM

    Post the studies. Tongue

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #99 - September 30, 2010, 10:06 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKTsWjbjQ8E

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #100 - September 30, 2010, 10:09 AM

    As a side issue, I find some of the definitions of "vegetarian" hilarious. People call themselves vegetarians if they don't eat mammals.

    Anecdotally, some pescetarians I've come across called themselves vegetarian. Although, possibly the funniest one I've come across was a person who ate vegan during the day but not in the evening and called it "vegan-plus".

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #101 - September 30, 2010, 10:10 AM

    Yes I know. The report is targeted at the general public and hence besed on the current zeitgeist that would be the most appropriate words. However the trend in all these studies show that the more you cut out, right down to none at all will provide the best results.


    Fuckin liar. How come thinkfree and the other vegans/vegetarians here don't feel the need to be intellectually dishonest, cherry-pick scientific evidence like a creationist, then use this pseudoscientific garbage to scare people into making an ethical decision (also like a creationist and other theists)? How come it's only you? Looks like you decided to swap one irrational, authoritarian religion for another.

    fuck you
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #102 - September 30, 2010, 10:25 AM

    No. If you're talking about traditional halal slaughter methods as in those vids then you have a point about pain, but not if we are talking about modern western methods of slaughter. They literally never know what hit them. They die far easier than many people do.


    But you're missing many of the major issues at stake here. Its not just a case of wether it is a painless death or not. Each life has evolved to varying degrees giving greater and greater sentience and feelings. Humans are also animals. Would you therefore have no problem if group A humans enjoyed eating group B humans justified their action based on the fact that group B humans were stunned and then killed? If they literally never know what hit them, would that make it all right for you?

    For me I see a problem killing a sentient being, painless or not, because I have to appreciate the value of their life. Their desire to live. Their expresson of emotions and needs, like little children, helpless, able to communicate in their little ways, willing to put their trust in our hands, yet we callous take advantage of them to satisfy our senses.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #103 - September 30, 2010, 10:36 AM

    The majority of humans could not stomach the task of killing animals for their own plate. Which is the basic nature of any carnivore or omnivore.


    Eh, underestimating humans and our love of meat.

    No doubt when pushed into a situation, we'd kill a animal, cook it and enjoy it later on.
    I didn't blink an eye when I had to kill a animal despite being raised in cotton wool in UK. I doubt many other people differ.
    The issue is just convenience. Why bother donning a hard hat, gun and go hunting when I can just pop down to Sainsburys  Afro

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #104 - September 30, 2010, 10:51 AM

    But you're missing many of the major issues at stake here. Its not just a case of wether it is a painless death or not. Each life has evolved to varying degrees giving greater and greater sentience and feelings. Humans are also animals. Would you therefore have no problem if group A humans enjoyed eating group B humans justified their action based on the fact that group B humans were stunned and then killed? If they literally never know what hit them, would that make it all right for you?

    For me I see a problem killing a sentient being, painless or not, because I have to appreciate the value of their life. Their desire to live. Their expresson of emotions and needs, like little children, helpless, able to communicate in their little ways, willing to put their trust in our hands, yet we callous take advantage of them to satisfy our senses.

    Not missing anything, mate. In your example Group A humans would be classed as dangerous to other people and could be shot accordingly.

    As for the rest of it:  Cheesy

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #105 - September 30, 2010, 10:53 AM

    Post the studies. Tongue


     I have read of Studies in Iran and India amongst vegans and the attributed source was faeces. Maybe a google might get you those actual sources. I'll look later when I get home. But here is a site that verify the info.

    http://www.acu-cell.com/bx2.html

    Down to the bottom of the page.

    Quote
    Vitamin B12 sources:
    Meat, dairy, eggs, seafood.  [Vitamin B12 is only found in animal products, but has been obtained through
    insect / feces-contaminated grains, fruits, or vegetables],


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #106 - September 30, 2010, 10:56 AM

    Awesome. So now you're saying that eating fly shit is healthy?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #107 - September 30, 2010, 10:59 AM

    Oh yeah I missed this gem. Thanks to Loki for catching it.

    The majority of humans could not stomach the task of killing animals for their own plate. Which is the basic nature of any carnivore or omnivore. We do however depend on a few individuals who could stomach the task either because they have been conditioned to do so from an early age or they genuinely have no problem with slaughter. Just as you would have murderers who would have not problem killing another human, there will always be those individuals hardened sufficiently to have no problem killing animals, but that does not make it right nor part of our species' general nature.

    I call bullshit. Humans everywhere have had no problem with killing animals for all of recorded history.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #108 - September 30, 2010, 11:10 AM

    Humans everywhere have had no problem with killing animals for all of recorded history.

    Or each other, often enough.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #109 - September 30, 2010, 11:11 AM

    Awesome. So now you're saying that eating fly shit is healthy?


    No I'm not but apparently nutritionists are.

    I'm not a vegan so I'm not really in a position to defend veganism. As a vegetarian I can easily get Vitamin B12  so I've never that much research into the B12 deficiency issue. But just so that you know.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #110 - September 30, 2010, 11:15 AM

    I dunno, unlike the Skinny Bitch book that said cavemen were vegans and we would do better as vegans since it's healthier, I disagree. I think we need meat.

    Is your grammar defective? Just askin'.


    "The wound is the place where the Light enters you." - Rumi

  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #111 - September 30, 2010, 11:28 AM

    Oh yeah I missed this gem. Thanks to Loki for catching it.
    I call bullshit. Humans everywhere have had no problem with killing animals for all of recorded history.


    OK if that's your opinion. I just know, in my general discussions with people as they often ask me why I'm vegetarian, one of my arguments I pose is, 'would you kill that lamb, chicken or whatever that you just ate?' and 9 times out of ten I'd get a response in the negative. As I said in the post there are those who are willing to do it. But I myself haven't met many in my neck of the woods.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #112 - September 30, 2010, 12:47 PM

    I'm not a vegetarian, but I don't really get why there's so much vegetarian bashing here, because I think many of them become vegetarians with the best intentions.  Huh?

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #113 - September 30, 2010, 12:53 PM

    People become Jehovah's Witnesses with the best of intentions too.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #114 - September 30, 2010, 12:57 PM

    I have killed animals for food before.

    The list:

    1) Sheep
    2) Chicken
    3) Rabbits
    4) Fish

    Have you?

    ...
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #115 - September 30, 2010, 01:01 PM

    Yup. Chickens. Fish. Haven't killed any sheep yet. Could knock off one of the neighbour's cows too but he might get grumpy if I did.

    ETA: Come to think of it, killing sheep should be fine coz there's no way sheep are sentient. There are few things less sentient than a smart sheep.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #116 - September 30, 2010, 01:04 PM

    People become Jehovah's Witnesses with the best of intentions too.


    LOL, good one.

    Well, carry on. I'm a fence sitter at the moment.  popcorn

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #117 - September 30, 2010, 01:43 PM

    *joins Lukatic on the fence*  popcorn
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #118 - September 30, 2010, 01:46 PM

    *fires up barbecue near the fence and passes them some sausages*

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are vegetarians really ethical?
     Reply #119 - September 30, 2010, 01:48 PM

    Anyone on the fence, please don't listen to a.ghazali-- many of his arguments are fundamentally dishonest. Listen to thinkfree or someone else who doesn't feel like they need to lie and scare people into becoming vegans.

    fuck you
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