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Theme Changer

 Topic: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.

 (Read 23616 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 5 ... 8 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #60 - March 28, 2011, 08:33 PM
    Define 'choice'.
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #61 - March 28, 2011, 08:35 PM
    ^As I defined it above. Choice is creative expression of the self.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #62 - March 28, 2011, 08:37 PM
    Without any causal influence outside of the self, or without knowledge of the causal influences outside the self?
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #63 - March 28, 2011, 08:38 PM
    No, there are causal influences from outside the self, but choice is more than the sum of these influences.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #64 - March 28, 2011, 08:39 PM
    And you are arguing that that is something other than randomness?
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #65 - March 28, 2011, 08:41 PM
    Yes, because as far as my own experience is concerned, I make them consciously and with complete understanding of the consequences.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #66 - March 28, 2011, 08:44 PM
    And is your action the result of a concious process, or does awareness of your action simply accompany the event(s)?
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #67 - March 28, 2011, 08:47 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on March 28, 2011, 07:17 PM
    No, they are speaking generally, in many different contexts.


    You mean like this one:

    2:6-7
    Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.  Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.

    and this one:
    16:93
    And if Allah please He would certainly make you a single nation, but He causes to err whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases; and most certainly you will be questioned as to what you did.

    i belive that to you the the first part of the verse clearly contradicts the second part.

    Although this one seems like it's explaining whom God would lead astray:  
    14:27
    Allah confirms those who believe with the sure word in this world's life and in the hereafter, and Allah causes the unjust to go astray, and Allah does what He pleases.

    but this one clearly explains who God would lead astray and why (contradicting or explaining the general language in 2:6-7?)
    7:146
    I will turn away from My communications those who are unjustly proud in the earth; and if they see every sign they will not believe in It; and if they see the way of rectitude they do not take It for a way, and if they see the way of error. they take it for a way; this is because they rejected Our communications and were heedless of them.

    Now here, the tone clearly implies absolute free-will (and that worship is for one's own sake:)  
    17:15
    Whoever goes aright, for his own soul does he go aright; and whoever goes astray, to its detriment only does he go astray: nor can the bearer of a burden bear the burden of another, nor do We chastise until We raise a messenger.

    So who is right regarding free-will according to the Quran? The Ashirites? or the Mutazilites? You seem to agree with the Ashirite. I disagree with both of them because:

    1- The author of the Quran couldn't just so persistently contradict himself.
    2- The 2 verses below explain the issue succinctly.

    76:29-30
    This is a reminder, that whosoever will may choose a way unto his Lord.
    YET you will not, except that God wills. Lo! God is Knower, Wise.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #68 - March 28, 2011, 08:58 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 28, 2011, 08:44 PM
    And is your action the result of a concious process, or does awareness of your action simply accompany the event(s)?


    The former, as far as my own experience of the action is concerned.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #69 - March 28, 2011, 09:00 PM
    And your experience is only that of which you are consciously aware?
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #70 - March 28, 2011, 09:07 PM
    Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 08:47 PM
    You mean like this one: [snip]

    Hope you don’t mind Yusuf Ali:

    Those who reject our signs are deaf and dumb,- in the midst of darkness profound: whom Allah willeth, He leaveth to wander: whom He willeth, He placeth on the way that is straight.
    ~ 6:39

    Whom Allah doth guide,- he is on the right path: whom He rejects from His guidance,- such are the persons who perish. Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).
    ~ 7:178-179

    Say: "Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector": and on Allah let the Believers put their trust.
    ~ 9:51

    And Allah will not mislead a people after He hath guided them, in order that He may make clear to them what to fear (and avoid)- for Allah hath knowledge of all things. Unto Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth. He giveth life and He taketh it. Except for Him ye have no protector nor helper.
    ~ 9:115-116

    [Re: the Earth]…the people to whom it belongs think they have all powers of disposal over it: There reaches it Our command by night or by day, and We make it like a harvest clean-mown, as if it had not flourished only the day before! thus do We explain the Signs in detail for those who reflect. But Allah doth call to the Home of Peace: He doth guide whom He pleaseth to a way that is straight.
    ~ 10:24-25

    Say: "Who is it that sustains you (in life) from the sky and from the earth? or who is it that has power over hearing and sight? And who is it that brings out the living from the dead and the dead from the living? and who is it that rules and regulates all affairs?" They will soon say, "Allah". Say, "will ye not then show piety (to Him)?"
    ~ 10:31

    No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.
    ~ 10:100

    Such are some of the stories of the unseen, which We have revealed unto thee: before this, neither thou nor thy people knew them. … "I put my trust in Allah, My Lord and your Lord! There is not a moving creature, but He hath grasp of its fore-lock. Verily, it is my Lord that is on a straight Path. "If ye turn away,- I (at least) have conveyed the Message with which I was sent to you. My Lord will make another people to succeed you, and you will not harm Him in the least. For my Lord hath care and watch over all things."
    ~ 11:49-57

    If thy Lord had so willed, He could have made mankind one people: but they will not cease to dispute. Except those on whom thy Lord hath bestowed His Mercy: and for this did He create them: and the Word of thy Lord shall be fulfilled: "I will fill Hell with jinns and men all together."
    ~ 11:118-119

    If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance: but the Word from Me will come true, "I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together."
    ~ 32:13

    Is he, then, to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring, so that he looks upon it as good, (equal to one who is rightly guided)? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills, and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do!
    ~ 35:8

    Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.
    ~ 39:18

    Know they not that Allah enlarges the provision or restricts it, for any He pleases? Verily, in this are Signs for those who believe!
    ~ 39:52

    No misfortune can happen on earth or in your souls but is recorded in a decree before We bring it into existence: That is truly easy for Allah:
    ~ 57:22

    It is We Who created them, and We have made their joints strong; but, when We will, We can substitute the like of them by a complete change. This is an admonition: Whosoever will, let him take a (straight) Path to his Lord. But ye will not, except as Allah wills; for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom.
    ~ 76:28-30

    Verily this is no less than a Message to (all) the Worlds: (With profit) to whoever among you wills to go straight: But ye shall not will except as Allah wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds.
    ~ 81:27-29

    Plus verses where such sentiments are repeated.

    Plus too-many-verses-to-list with Allah-Mo boasting about how he controls the weather/elements/phenomenon/nature/animals/everything/whatever, and all that.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #71 - March 28, 2011, 09:09 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on March 28, 2011, 08:19 PM
    @debunker

    Not sure about that. As far as I can see, God is not necessarily limited by humans having absolute free will any more than it is limited by, say, being omniscient.

    i'll respond to the bolded part below.

    Quote
    Hypothetically, humans may possess absolute free will while God remains unlimited, as God may simply give them free will, and abstain from interfering with it, despite the fact that he can control it completely if he chooses.

    It's like when a King gives a piece of his kingdom to someone, it no longer becomes under his domain, regardless of the fact that he willed this to be, in the first place.

    Quote
    Regardless of whether the theistic god is logically coherent in other areas, with regards to absolute or 'libertarian' free will in humans, there's no logical incompatibility. Unless you're saying that God must have absolute control over man's will too, i.e., that God must dictate man's will and choices and configure them according to His will, rather than leaving people to follow their own.

    I didn't say God is the first and only cause, I only said he's the first cause period.

    Quote
    What does this mean? If God is timeless and changeless and has certain intrinsic and immutable characteristics that shape his actions and thoughts, then how can he have absolute free will? How can his decisions be absolutely free if they are ultimately caused by his attributes that he possesses whether he likes it or not? As far as I can see, the theistic God must necessarily not possess absolute free will.

    Well some argue (for example the Mutazilites) that God's attributes are one with His essence.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #72 - March 28, 2011, 09:10 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on March 28, 2011, 09:07 PM
    Hope you don’t mind Yusuf Ali:
    <snip>

    I'm aware of all of that, Ishina.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #73 - March 28, 2011, 09:12 PM
    Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 09:09 PM

    I didn't say God is the first and only cause, I only said he's the first cause period.



    And what makes you think this?
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #74 - March 28, 2011, 09:14 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on March 28, 2011, 08:05 PM
    I find these verses interesting:

    Q. 37:96

    وَٱللَّهُ خَلَقَكُمْ وَمَا تَعْمَلُونَ

    Allah created you and what you make/do

    The context prefers the 'make' meaning, but the verb also is used in the Qur'an to refer to actions, or 'doing' generally.

    Yoiu didn't explain how you find it interesting.


    Quote
    Q. 57:22

    No affliction befalls in the earth or in yourselves, but it is in a Book, before We create it; that is easy for God;

    Seems pretty deterministic to me.

    no more than Eternalism implying Determinism.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #75 - March 28, 2011, 09:14 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 28, 2011, 09:12 PM
    And what makes you think this?


    my understanding of the Quran.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #76 - March 28, 2011, 09:15 PM
    Elaborate please. I mean to ask why you think Allah is the first cause. ^
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #77 - March 28, 2011, 09:15 PM
    Quote from: z10 on March 28, 2011, 08:17 PM
    From what I remember I suggested that individual creativity is as much a part of the world as the causal order. In which case, free will would be the inherent creative impulse that largely defines you as a being. Ofcourse, one can always ask a further causal question, but I'm not sure it is necessary to answer that question.
    For instance, I chose to have cereal this morning rather than a fried egg - it was not random because it was a conscious choice that I made. It had a reason, but must I look for this reason outside myself, in a causal chain that stretches back to the big bang and beyond - can I not just say that the reason was myself, in myself, a manifestation of my self as it is?


    love my z10.. i just love him.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #78 - March 28, 2011, 09:16 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 28, 2011, 09:15 PM
    Elaborate please ^


    ??
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #79 - March 28, 2011, 09:17 PM
    See edit  ^
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #80 - March 28, 2011, 09:19 PM
    @ prince

    Quote
    And you justify this with 'might is right'? God can punish us for what we aren't ultimately responsible for, just because he can?


    I never said that in this discussion. but i'm sure you'll find a way to convince me that i did.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #81 - March 28, 2011, 09:20 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 28, 2011, 09:15 PM
    Elaborate please. I mean to ask why you think Allah is the first cause. ^


    oh, it's just a Quranic claim.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #82 - March 28, 2011, 09:21 PM
    anyway, gotta go to bed.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #83 - March 28, 2011, 09:21 PM
    No, but I seem to remember you justifying it in that manner on a previous thread. Do you?

    (Would still like to know what makes you think the first cause is Allah, or a god like him.)
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #84 - March 28, 2011, 09:21 PM
    Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 09:20 PM
    oh, it's just a Quranic claim.


    Why believe the qur'an?
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #85 - March 28, 2011, 09:37 PM
    Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 08:47 PM
    1- The author of the Quran couldn't just so persistently contradict himself.

    Only from your viewpoint, which is the viewpoint of one who believes the Qur'an has only a single author or origin, and that the author is divine.

    Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 08:47 PM
    2- The 2 verses below explain the issue succinctly.

    No, it really doesn't explain anything, nor does it really support anything you‘re implying.

    We are still at the same point: you have yet to convince me that, if I grant the Qur'an as true for arguments sake, that it means we have free will separate from the will of God. At this point, if I grant the Qur'an as true for arguments sake, I am compelled to believe that I have no free will, simply going by what the Qur'an explicitly asserts.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #86 - March 28, 2011, 09:38 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 28, 2011, 09:21 PM
    No, but I seem to remember you justifying it in that manner on a previous thread. Do you?


    no, i was justifying it from a completely different perspective.. here it is again (i'm sure a lot of people here are tired of hearing it, but hey, anything for ya:)

    if you belive that you owe someone money, you are obliged to return it to them, if they demanded it, whether they need it or not, and whether you like them or not.

    I believe I owe God absolutely everything, my life, my very being, so He has the right to demand what I do with my life. So I submit, whether He needs my submission or not, and whether I loved Him or not. (Reward/punishment/the love of God, all of that is secondary).

    Quote
    (Would still like to know what makes you think the first cause is Allah, or a god like him.)

    well, I could answer you, but with your being a pantheist, all of my arguments would sound *arbitrary*. Frankly, I view Pantheism a reasonable world view, I can't find anything wrong with it... except maybe.... it's just an alternative I'm not very attracted to, but I like it, overall.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #87 - March 28, 2011, 09:41 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 28, 2011, 09:21 PM
    Why believe the qur'an?


    see above...
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #88 - March 28, 2011, 09:49 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on March 28, 2011, 09:37 PM
    Only from your viewpoint, which is the viewpoint of one who believes the Qur'an has only a single author or origin, and that the author is divine.

    That would certainly explain the persistency of the apparent contradiction (even within the same verse, or back-to-back verses) regarding the matter of free-will, i'll give you that.

    Quote
    No, it really doesn't explain anything, nor does it really support anything you‘re implying.

    We are still at the same point: you have yet to convince me that, if I grant the Qur'an as true for arguments sake, that it means we have free will separate from the will of god

    I maintained, all along, that the Quran says free-will CANNOT exist seperate from the will of God.

    Quote
    At this point, if I grant the Qur'an as true for arguments sake, I am compelled to believe that I have no free will, simply going by what the Qur'an explicitly asserts.


    Question: to you, are the following 2 phrases equivalent?

    a) Free-will cannot exist independently from God's will.

    b) There is no free-will.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #89 - March 28, 2011, 09:52 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 28, 2011, 09:00 PM
    And your experience is only that of which you are consciously aware?


    Yes, I think that follows as a matter of definition.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
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