Democracy and Islam

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- olweasel
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Democracy and Islam
OP - May 13, 2011, 11:12 PM

Full article: http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/13/democracy-and-islam.html

Quote
Presently, the UK and the US are regarded as the pioneers of western democracy. Are their rulers questioned so openly and bluntly by the common men in public places as the aforesaid caliphs used to be? Nowadays in a democratic system, the rulers are elected through votes and the candidates offer themselves for their election, utilising all kinds of sources for winning elections while none of the rightful caliphs offered himself for election. Each was selected by a majority of the people, after the proposal of their names by other people. Neither did they display any desire nor made an attempt to win their elections.

Furthermore, their deeds verify the highest democratic values in governance which are extinct today in the governance of so-called democratic rulers. The day after his election as the caliph, Hazrat Abu Bakar came out with pieces of cloth on his shoulder to sell, because before his caliphate, this had been his source of income. Hazrat Umar met him on the way and asked, “What are you doing?” He replied, “I have to support my family.”

The right of criticism and freedom of expression before the ruler, which are important features of democracy, were evident in the governance of these caliphs. Hazrat Salman Farsi, a respected companion of the Prophet (PBUH), questioned Caliph Umar in a public gathering, asking why he had taken two sheets while everyone else got a single sheet from the spoils. Hazrat Umar instantly called his son Abdullah who clarified the position of his father by replying that he had given his sheet to his father due to his tall height.

Hazrat Usman had to face very severe criticism by the people during his caliphate, but he did not attempt to stop them by any means; rather, in reply to their criticism he always clarified his position publicly. Hazrat Ali as the caliph tolerated the extreme abuses of the Khawarij.

Once the caliph saw a Jew selling his lost chain armour in the market. Being the ruler, he did not snatch his armour from that person but submitted his complaint in the court of a judge. The judge asked for the evidence and Hazrat Ali produced the evidence of his son, Hasan, but the judge did not accept this evidence as the latter was the son of the caliph, and gave judgment against the caliph. The Jew, observing this rare example of justice, accepted Islam at Hazrat Ali’s hands.

Today, out of the aforesaid examples, can any ruler of a democratic state present such an example? The leading pioneer of India’s independence, Mahatma Gandhi, had once said that he wanted such a democratic state whose ruler followed in the footsteps of Hazrat Umar. Famous jurist Armanus Von Marie had confessed that Islam was the only religion among the universal religions to have democracy for its system of governance.

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- billy
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #1 - May 13, 2011, 11:21 PM

Quote
The great Muslim thinker and poet Allama Iqbal has rightly said, “Juda ho deen siyasat se to reh jaati hai changezi” (take religion [morality] away from politics and you have despotism), for religion is the source of all morality, individual and collective.

Oh brother. How can so much failure exist in a sentence lauded so highly?

To the rest of it, I've read variations on this theme many times. It speaks of Islam's deep inferiority complex. Contains so many delusions:

Quote
In conclusion, it may be said that Islam had been the pioneer of democracy, but its followers in general have forgotten their own values along with the democratic system of governance.

Everything is Islam!

Where to start with such a farrago of thinking?

On the other hand, a small part of me thinks, well, if they are trying to wean Muslims away from being against democracy altogether......but then, what good can come of such distortions, really?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #2 - May 13, 2011, 11:23 PM

Islam is a Total Solution for Mankind

A Totalising System for the Organisation of Private and Public Life

^^^(the slogans on the sandwich boards if Islam was invented last year and being sold on Tottenham Court Road like the Scientologists)

All you have to do is submit.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #3 - May 13, 2011, 11:32 PM

Praise be to Allah, Islam is the best at everything. Even Kuffar political systems.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #4 - May 13, 2011, 11:36 PM

Quote from: olweasel on May 13, 2011, 11:12 PM
Full article: http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/13/democracy-and-islam.html

And George Washington never told a lie. Even when he chopped down the cherry tree.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #5 - May 14, 2011, 01:59 AM

http://ourbeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/admin2/2010/06/islam-the-true-history-and-false-beliefs.pdf

Shabir.. you are deluding yourself too long with FALSE HISTORY and false sense of Islam.,
Get over the rubbish.. cut the umbilical cord..

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #6 - May 14, 2011, 02:15 PM

Quote
Once the caliph saw a Jew selling his lost chain armour in the market. Being the ruler, he did not snatch his armour from that person but submitted his complaint in the court of a judge. The judge asked for the evidence and Hazrat Ali produced the evidence of his son, Hasan, but the judge did not accept this evidence as the latter was the son of the caliph, and gave judgment against the caliph. The Jew, observing this rare example of justice, accepted Islam at Hazrat Ali’s hands.

That is an awesome story, loved it as a muslimah and still do

Quote
The great Muslim thinker and poet Allama Iqbal has rightly said, “Juda ho deen siyasat se to reh jaati hai changezi” (take religion [morality] away from politics and you have despotism), for religion is the source of all morality, individual and collective.

My grandma is always saying that

From what I know Islamists don't oppose elections, holding politicians accountable etc. they disagree with what they call "man made laws" that make lawful what Islam says is unlawful e.g. homosexuality, pre-marital sex and so on. I think Egypt will become a sort of hybrid of Islam & democracy, it won't be theocratic as Iran nor will it be as 'secular' as Turkey.
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #7 - May 14, 2011, 03:31 PM

Quote from: Aphrodite on May 14, 2011, 02:15 PM
'secular' as Turkey.

Secular Turkey?? Secular?? yes.. yes it is secular

99% of the Turkish population is Muslims . The remaining is composed of Orthodox Christians, Gregorian Christians, Catholic, Suryani and Protestant Christians, and Jews.

What is definition of secular in your world dear Aphrodite??

Lucky Turkey without that Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in 1920s,., Turkey would have been filled with Islamic turkeys.,

Just to let the readers know that Turkey's Islam mainly has three different sects. Nearly %80 believe in is the "Sunni". The second type is the "Alevi"/Shia . The third one is "The Ismailis " a belief that is similar to the Alevi belief in many thoughts but could be seen as stricter style.

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #8 - May 14, 2011, 04:40 PM

Quote from: Aphrodite on May 14, 2011, 02:15 PM
That is an awesome story, loved it as a muslimah and still do

Apparently this narration is weak, the salafi scholar al-Albaani declared it very weak in Irwaa al-Ghaleel vol. 8. Page 242-243, just thought i'd make use of my indoctrination lol.

I think its clear that this article is from a non-fundamentalist view point, apparently in salafi tradition establishing a khalifate is not THAT important, there's narrations stating that the khalifate was supposed to last for 30 years:

The Prophetic khilaafah will last for thirty years. Then Allaah will give the dominion to whomever He wills. (Abu Dawud and al-Haakim)

in another narration: The khilaafah after me in my Ummah will last for thirty years. Then there will be kingship after that. (Musnad Imaam Ahmad).

The most evident narration of the complacency of tyrannical rule and the wholesale rejection of democracy is the following narration:

The Prophethood will remain amongst you for as long as Allaah wills it to be. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be the khilaafah upon the Prophetic methodology. And it will last for as long as Allaah wills it to last. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be biting kingship, and it will remain for as long as Allaah wills it to remain. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be tyrannical (forceful) kingship and it will remain for as long as Allaah wills it to remain. Then He will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be a khilaafah upon the Prophetic methodology.

Then he (the Prophet) was silent. (Reported by Ahmad and Abu Dawud).

So it's evident to me that such articles are a feeble attempt of providing an "Islamic alternative" for an ever increasing section of skeptical Muslims, after a little digging the substance to the argument is uncovered; a mere tyrannical, feudalistic and outdated system of governance.

I make it rain - apparently?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh_I19_mKkU&list=SP1665576E7498BAB7&index=2&feature=plcp
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #9 - May 14, 2011, 05:55 PM

Quote from: Aphrodite on May 14, 2011, 02:15 PM
That is an awesome story, loved it as a muslimah and still do

Why?

Quote from: Aphrodite on May 14, 2011, 02:15 PM
My grandma is always saying that

From what I know Islamists don't oppose elections, holding politicians accountable etc. they disagree with what they call "man made laws" that make lawful what Islam says is unlawful e.g. homosexuality, pre-marital sex and so on.

But that sentence is dangerous in its implications, beside being wrong:

Quote
take religion [morality] away from politics and you have despotism)

First of all, religion in politics always leads to despotism - divine despotism. Politics then just becomes a game of religious one-upmanship, inquisitions, and religious feuds. It also declares that religion is the source of morality, which is totally wrong.

The implications of this are that wherever there is despotism, its because there is no Islam. So despotism's only cure is more and more Islam. Which is a recipe for the abyss.

It also says, according to this logic, that all the democratic countries of the world that are not Islamic, are actually despotisms. And it doesn't account for despotic societies and regimes that are and were communist, or feudal, or monarchical, or army ruled.

Its just completely off-the-scale wrong.

Quote
for religion is the source of all morality, individual and collective.

As above. The 'individual and collective' line is all part of how Islam (because that is what is being referred to) is a total system for regulating and policing all human behaviour and for organising society.

Don't you see how creepy and insidious this notion becomes?

Quote
I think Egypt will become a sort of hybrid of Islam & democracy, it won't be theocratic as Iran nor will it be as 'secular' as Turkey.

I can't predict what will happen in Egypt. I always wonder what a hybrid of Islam and democracy actually is.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #10 - May 14, 2011, 06:22 PM

Quote from: Nilly on May 14, 2011, 04:40 PM
So it's evident to me that such articles are a feeble attempt of providing an "Islamic alternative" for an ever increasing section of skeptical Muslims, after a little digging the substance to the argument is uncovered; a mere tyrannical, feudalistic and outdated system of governance.

Their method of propagating political Islam works like this:

People think democracy is great. Channel your focus on that term.

So tack 'democracy' onto Islam, and promote it as a champion of democracy, and people will buy it.

"Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #11 - May 14, 2011, 06:31 PM

Quote
Their method of propagating political Islam works like this:

People think X,Y,Z is great. Channel your focus on that term.

So tack X,Y,Z onto Islam, and promote it as a champion of X,Y,Z, and people will buy it.

FYP

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #12 - May 14, 2011, 06:43 PM

Quote from: olweasel on May 14, 2011, 06:22 PM
Their method of propagating political Islam works like this:

People think democracy is great. Channel your focus on that term.

So tack 'democracy' onto Islam, and promote it as a champion of democracy, and people will buy it.

Bingo.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #13 - May 14, 2011, 06:58 PM

Quote from: deusvult on May 14, 2011, 06:31 PM
FYP

I guess 'freedom' is interchangeable with 'democracy', like in the case of Islamist activists in Arab states.

Islam will make you free!

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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #14 - May 14, 2011, 06:59 PM

Quote from: Nilly on May 14, 2011, 04:40 PM
Apparently this narration is weak, the salafi scholar al-Albaani declared it very weak in Irwaa al-Ghaleel vol. 8. Page 242-243, just thought i'd make use of my indoctrination lol.

Yeah someone told me that, still doesn't stop muslims from spreading it lol I actually quite liked Albaani he wasn't as puritanical as most salafi scholars.

Quote from: Nilly on May 14, 2011, 04:40 PM

I think its clear that this article is from a non-fundamentalist view point, apparently in salafi tradition establishing a khalifate is not THAT important, there's narrations stating that the khalifate was supposed to last for 30 years:

Were you the type of salafi who never questioned the legitimacy of the saudi monarch? Coz you know there are other salafis out there (Al-qaeda type) who think its very important and the 4 imams, plus others like ibn taymiyyah said it was fard, coz at the end of the day its supposed to come back before Imam Mahdi which is why I always laughed at those silly muslims who say "Imam mahdi will sort everything out"

Quote from: Nilly on May 14, 2011, 04:40 PM
The most evident narration of the complacency of tyrannical rule and the wholesale rejection of democracy is the following narration:

The Prophethood will remain amongst you for as long as Allaah wills it to be. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be the khilaafah upon the Prophetic methodology. And it will last for as long as Allaah wills it to last. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be biting kingship, and it will remain for as long as Allaah wills it to remain. Then Allaah will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be tyrannical (forceful) kingship and it will remain for as long as Allaah wills it to remain. Then He will raise it when He wills to raise it. Then there will be a khilaafah upon the Prophetic methodology.

Then he (the Prophet) was silent. (Reported by Ahmad and Abu Dawud).

Yeah that hadith makes some muslims think nowadays the khilafah is about to return, apparently the "biting kingship" (also translated as long) was the era of the Ummayads until the Ottomans and the tyrannical kingship is what we see today.
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #15 - May 14, 2011, 07:16 PM

Quote from: billy on May 14, 2011, 05:55 PM
Why?

An imperialist Arab ruler (he didn't do well lol) in the 7th century taking a Jew to court, not getting his way and accepting the decision deserves some credit According to some the Jew converted to Islam coz he saw the 'justice' it gave.

Quote from: billy on May 14, 2011, 05:55 PM

But that sentence is dangerous in its implications, beside being wrong:

First of all, religion in politics always leads to despotism - divine despotism. Politics then just becomes a game of religious one-upmanship, inquisitions, and religious feuds. It also declares that religion is the source of morality, which is totally wrong.

The implications of this are that wherever there is despotism, its because there is no Islam. So despotism's only cure is more and more Islam. Which is a recipe for the abyss.

It also says, according to this logic, that all the democratic countries of the world that are not Islamic, are actually despotisms. And it doesn't account for despotic societies and regimes that are and were communist, or feudal, or monarchical, or army ruled.

Its just completely off-the-scale wrong.

As above. The 'individual and collective' line is all part of how Islam (because that is what is being referred to) is a total system for regulating and policing all human behaviour and for organising society.

Don't you see how creepy and insidious this notion becomes?

Yes I do see it which is why I left Islam I don't know much about Allama Iqbal (his philosophical views were haraam, politics were fine) I think he believed that a state without religion would turn despotic and cause tyranny because they would become materialistic, I guess you could say he meant Capitalism I've only just realised now, I think the word "changezi" is in reference to Genghis Khan who's known as Changez or Janghez in urdu, not sure.

Quote from: billy on May 14, 2011, 05:55 PM

I can't predict what will happen in Egypt. I always wonder what a hybrid of Islam and democracy actually is.

Some things are for sure: It won't be another Iran (sunnis completely reject any notion of an infallible clergy man ruling) it won't be another Saudi (too strict) apart from that its anybody's guess, the recent Anti-Israel demonstrations have been awesome
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #16 - May 14, 2011, 07:19 PM

Quote from: olweasel on May 14, 2011, 06:58 PM
I guess 'freedom' is interchangeable with 'democracy', like in the case of Islamist activists in Arab states.

Islam will make you free!

Freedom, equality, advancement in science, architecture, medicine, aesthetics, hell even sports, you can pretty much pick any hobby, sport, science, etc and Islam either founded it, or will make it better. You won't ever hear something like " Yea that Kuffar system is better at doing X or Y or Z except if framed in the most negative light ie freedom = whoring,drinking, crime then yea democracy is better etc. Its pretty much the hallmark of a totalitarian system if it thinks it is the end all and be all of political systems ( that goes even for democracy if people get too crazy about it see America which the freedom isn't free mantra)

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #17 - May 14, 2011, 07:19 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on May 14, 2011, 03:31 PM

What is definition of secular in your world dear Aphrodite??

Lucky Turkey without that Mustafa Kemal Ataturk in 1920s,., Turkey would have been filled with Islamic turkeys.,

Religion doesn't interfere with the state and the state doesn't interfere with religion.

What do you mean "Islamic"? Islamic because they'd have had closer ties to the people that were once part of the Ottoman Empire, like they're doing now?
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #18 - May 14, 2011, 07:20 PM

Turkey interferes with religion very much.

Ataturk was the anti-Ummah icon of the 'Islamic' world supreme.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #19 - May 14, 2011, 07:24 PM

Quote from: Aphrodite on May 14, 2011, 07:16 PM
An imperialist Arab ruler (he didn't do well lol) in the 7th century taking a Jew to court, not getting his way and accepting the decision deserves some credit According to some the Jew converted to Islam coz he saw the 'justice' it gave.

Yea I think it is a good story too. It shows the ideal of the rule of law as opposed to the perks of privilege. Once one turns away from believing that religious system is completly true then one can enjoy the more humanitarian parts of a religious without accepting the totality of it and not worry about if it has a true string of narration etc.

Quote
Yes I do see it which is why I left Islam I don't know much about Allama Iqbal (his philosophical views were haraam, politics were fine) I think he believed that a state without religion would turn despotic and cause tyranny because they would become materialistic, I guess you could say he meant Capitalism I've only just realised now, I think the word "changezi" is in reference to Genghis Khan who's known as Changez or Janghez in urdu, not sure.

I wouldn't say just Capitalism, any -ism is deposit according those guys. You could have a political system in which there was 100% acceptance and popularity of the political system and it would be a depositism well at least according to the Qutb and onward crowd.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #20 - May 14, 2011, 07:26 PM

Quote from: Aphrodite on May 14, 2011, 07:19 PM
Religion doesn't interfere with the state and the state doesn't interfere with religion.

What do you mean "Islamic"? Islamic because they'd have had closer ties to the people that were once part of the Ottoman Empire, like they're doing now?

Religion is politics justified by an invisible friend. A complete separation of politics and religion is impossible because they are one and the same.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #21 - May 14, 2011, 07:29 PM

Quote from: billy on May 14, 2011, 07:20 PM
Turkey interferes with religion very much.

Ataturk was the anti-Ummah icon of the 'Islamic' world supreme.

The interference in religion is counter-productive, like the hijab and call to prayer bans in some muslim countries, just makes people defend their beliefs more thus become more extreme.

I think Musharraf said publicly, Ataturk is an idol of his which caused a huge uproar in Pakistan.
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #22 - May 14, 2011, 07:32 PM

I think Ataturk felt that Islam had to be wrestled to the ground for his nation to progress.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #23 - May 14, 2011, 07:39 PM

Quote from: deusvult on May 14, 2011, 07:24 PM
I wouldn't say just Capitalism, any -ism is deposit according those guys. You could have a political system in which there was 100% acceptance and popularity of the political system and it would be a depositism well at least according to the Qutb and onward crowd.

Lol well I wouldn't compare Iqbal to Qutb although I did once see a video of Ayman Al-Zawahiri boasting about how his grandfather was the first one to translate Iqbals work into arabic. Hmmm yeah I agree, its like one of the 'justifications' of why good non-muslims still go to hell--it doesn't make up for the biggest crime lol. Also I remember once (was muslim then) I was talking to a muslim (the salafi jihadi type) he was really polite and stuff, I asked him why some muslims were making such a big thing about the cartoons of Mo when there are people being killed 24/7 (I thought the blood of a muslim is worth more than the Kaabah) he replied saying that a "even a minor crime against the divine is bigger than the greatest crime against creation" I was like He was one of the reasons why I began to question Islam
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #24 - May 14, 2011, 07:41 PM

Regarding the future of Egypt - an increasing role for political Islam would very likely lead to more persecution of Copts there. That is instructive on why religious politics is insidious.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #25 - May 14, 2011, 07:48 PM

It depends on who becomes popular from the political side of Islam, if its liberals within the MB then I don't think it will. The hardliners within the MB or salafis then most definitely yes. Political Islam doesn't always mean persecution of others; look at Hezbollah in Lebanon.
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #26 - May 14, 2011, 07:55 PM

I think you're being naive, Aphro.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #27 - May 14, 2011, 08:03 PM

Quote from: Aphrodite on May 14, 2011, 07:48 PM
Political Islam doesn't always mean persecution of others; look at Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Are you saying that Hezbollah does not 'persecute others'?
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #28 - May 14, 2011, 09:43 PM

Afaik Hezbollah hasn't been involved in sectarian violence recently and doesn't mind working with different people from different POV.

Quote from: billy on May 14, 2011, 07:55 PM
I think you're being naive, Aphro.

Maybe, I just hope I'm right. One thing is for sure, suppressing Islamists just bcoz you don't agree with their views never works.
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Re: Democracy and Islam
Reply #29 - May 14, 2011, 09:49 PM

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Maybe, I just hope I'm right. One thing is for sure, suppressing Islamists just bcoz you don't agree with their views never works.

True this. Banning beards o niqabs or whatever doesn't work. It just fuels the victimization complex that anyone would develop if they were discriminated against. A better option would be, not to limit Islamist influence on themselves or others who agree with them but to limit their ( or anyone else's ) ability to mess with other people. Ultimately Islamists ( and religious people in general) aren't happy with just themselves obeying whatever religious law they have, but that everyone else follows their religious law irregardless if they want to or not.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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