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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!

 (Read 37546 times)
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  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #150 - July 10, 2011, 11:20 PM

    have you got a link to his facebook page again?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #151 - July 10, 2011, 11:32 PM

    have you got a link to his facebook page again?



     Smiley I'd love to see this discussion take place.

    I'm going to have a meeting with a maulana tomorrow, some tablighis came round my house and after I'd told them i'd apostated they offered me a meeting. I'm gonna ask him questions on Aisha, slavery, and Sharia... should be interesting.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #152 - July 10, 2011, 11:48 PM

    ^ Oh dude!!

    Good luck, bro.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #153 - July 11, 2011, 01:56 AM

    Smiley I'd love to see this discussion take place.

    I'm going to have a meeting with a maulana tomorrow, some tablighis came round my house and after I'd told them i'd apostated they offered me a meeting. I'm gonna ask him questions on Aisha, slavery, and Sharia... should be interesting.

    look up the awkward questions to ask muslims thread.  There's some awesome stuff in there!!  And be sure to share how it went..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #154 - July 11, 2011, 03:29 AM

    I have written to him a few times but not yet had a response.  He wrote a comment on his facebook page saying he had accidentally deleted my email and asked if I could resend it, which I did, and have not had a response.


    I told ya that he would chicken out after your Qs at the MSS!  whistling2
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #155 - July 11, 2011, 03:30 AM

    Smiley I'd love to see this discussion take place.

    I'm going to have a meeting with a maulana tomorrow, some tablighis came round my house and after I'd told them i'd apostated they offered me a meeting. I'm gonna ask him questions on Aisha, slavery, and Sharia... should be interesting.


    Take a viddy cam too Smiley
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #156 - July 11, 2011, 07:32 AM

    http://www.facebook.com/HamzaAndreasTzortzis

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #157 - July 11, 2011, 07:52 AM

    Isn't that a relatively good thing though?  

    Yes it is a good thing because I'd rather rapists be punished than adulterers, but as far as I know the 4 witness rule applies to both in Islam.

    .
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #158 - July 11, 2011, 08:04 AM

    There's a hadith I read where Mo sentenced a man to death for unlawful sex with a woman that did not consent based only on her testimony, overriding his counter testimony.

    Turns out it was the wrong man.  Luckily for him the real culprit owned up before he was executed.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #159 - July 11, 2011, 12:40 PM

    look up the awkward questions to ask muslims thread.  There's some awesome stuff in there!!  And be sure to share how it went..


    Was quite funny. He pretty much directed the course of the conversation but couldn't reply to any of my counter arguments and kept changing subject, which was surprising because i'm not even educated, or exceptionally intelligent. I didn't try to drill him on one subject, mainly because I wasn't that bothered, and I actually found it entertaining.

    He believes Aisha's age is disputed, but he stated that if she was 9 it was applicable in those times was ok, but not applicable now. I stated that if they believed that a 9yr old who began puberty was a mature adult then they did it out of ignorance, and the Quran or Muhammad should have let them know that (in accordance with scientific research into neurology, psychology and biology) that a human being isn't significantly mature until late teens... he changed the subject.

    He also brought up Quran Miracles (which I knew little about aside from half remembered therationalizer vids) I asked him the verses on embryology which he stated in arabic and then I asked him to identify if the quran states that the stage of development that it outlines occurs simultaneously or sequentially. He said 'you tell me you're the scientist' I asked him to tell me what the Quran says, as he just quoted it, he looked down sheepishly and said he'd try to get me the info Roll Eyes.

    He kept trying to set up the 'you believe science has all the answers' I basically countered each time with arguments centred around 'I believe science has the best method through observation, predictive models, and peer reviewing'. I also told him I believe in God but openly admit my belief is personal conjecture, and asked what proves that his religion is from God... he actually didn't attempt to respond to that question even though I put it to him several times.

    I was bemused that an alim who apparently runs an institute in bristol was evading my questions, and was trying to constantly counter with science (the entity apparently) is arrogant - or maybe he was referring to me whistling2. (I forgot to ask him his name, but he wants to get together again next week, so I'll ask him then). 

    Another local revert Imam wants to talk with me, he actually was a former marine biologist who used to lecture on evolution and when I knew him used to read up on Dawkins, etc. I'm looking forward to meeting with him, he'll hopefully give me some good responses that challenge me intellectually.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #160 - July 11, 2011, 12:53 PM

    Perhaps you can ask him how he marries the fact of evolution with the anti-evolutionary stance of the Quran which says not only that we were all created from a single soul but also that this soul was advanced enough to learn the names of animals, talk, and was a sexually reproducing animal sufficiently socially advanced to enter a contract of marriage.

    Then tell him to stop being so fucking silly and apostatise.


    ====Quran 004:001 O ye people ! fear your Lord who created you from a single soul and of its kind created its mate

    Al Jalalayn: Who created you of a single soul, Adam, and from it created its mate, Eve (Hawwā’), from one of his left ribs, and from the pair of them, Adam and Eve, scattered, separated and spread

    Tafsir Ibn Abbas: obey your Lord (Who created you) by means of copulation (from a single soul) from the soul of Adam alone, for the soul of Eve was included in his

    Ibn Kathir : Allah commands His creatures to have Taqwa of Him by worshipping Him Alone without partners. He also reminds to them of His ability, in that He created them all from a single person, Adam



    ====Quran 006:098 And HE it is Who has produced you from a single soul
    Al Jalalayn: And He it is Who produced you, created you, from a single soul, namely, Adam

    Tafsir Ibn Abbas: (And He it is Who hath produced) created (you from a single being) from Adam

    Ibn Kathir : It is He Who has created you from a single person, in reference to Adam, peace be upon him


    ====Quran 007:189 HE it is Who created you from a single soul and made therefrom its mate, that he might find comfort in her

    Al Jalalayn : He, that is, God, it is Who created you from a single soul, namely, Adam

    Tafsir Ibn Abbas : (He it is who did create you from a single soul) the soul of Adam alone, (and therefrom did make his mate) and from the soul of Adam he created his wife Eve

    Ibn Kathir : Allah states that He has created all mankind from Adam, peace be upon him, and from Adam, He created his wife, Hawwa and from them, people started to spread.



    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #161 - July 11, 2011, 01:49 PM

    Perhaps you can ask him how he marries the fact of evolution with the anti-evolutionary stance of the Quran which says not only that we were all created from a single soul but also that this soul was advanced enough to learn the names of animals, talk, and was a sexually reproducing animal sufficiently socially advanced to enter a contract of marriage.

    Then tell him to stop being so fucking silly and apostatise.


    LOL. He did bring up evolution and he said 'scentists say we come from leaves', I replied 'I'm just beginning to study evolution but it definitely doesn't say that', and he swiftly changed the topic. During the discussion I kept thinking this is how the religious mind works, convoluted circular reasoning to evade conclusions.

    Before the discussion he seemed to try to intimidate me by telling me his credentials and institutions he's lectured in front of.  Cheesy

     
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #162 - July 11, 2011, 01:50 PM

    LOL. He did bring up evolution and he said 'scentists say we come from leaves', 


    Then I doubt he is a marine biologist.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #163 - July 11, 2011, 02:05 PM

    I think we need to flood that page with requests... http://www.facebook.com/HamzaAndreasTzortzis

    I really wanna see this debate, should be amusing and further the awareness that Islam isn't 'the truth'.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #164 - July 11, 2011, 02:11 PM

    Then I doubt he is a marine biologist.


    Sorry I confused you. I meant the revert Imam who wants to talk to me is a former marine biologist, not the scholar I spoke to.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #165 - July 11, 2011, 02:13 PM

    Ah, I see.  Then when you talk to the marine biologist please present him with the verses + tafsirs I presented and ask him about it.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #166 - July 11, 2011, 09:09 PM

    That would make sense actually, but dont know if Cat Stevens (Yusuf Islam) got there via the same route though. He was a successful singer who prob didnt live in a densly populated area.

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #167 - July 11, 2011, 10:15 PM

    Hey, I have been looking for something like this for ages - did you get this from a website where all tafsir are searcheable?

    If so, have you got a link?

    ====Quran 007:189 HE it is Who created you from a single soul and made therefrom its mate, that he might find comfort in her

    Al Jalalayn : He, that is, God, it is Who created you from a single soul, namely, Adam

    Tafsir Ibn Abbas : (He it is who did create you from a single soul) the soul of Adam alone, (and therefrom did make his mate) and from the soul of Adam he created his wife Eve

    Ibn Kathir : Allah states that He has created all mankind from Adam, peace be upon him, and from Adam, He created his wife, Hawwa and from them, people started to spread.





    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #168 - July 11, 2011, 10:19 PM

    Quote
    I asked him to identify if the quran states that the stage of development that it outlines occurs simultaneously or sequentially. He said 'you tell me you're the scientist' I asked him to tell me what the Quran says, as he just quoted it, he looked down sheepishly and said he'd try to get me the info


     Cheesy He just needs to speak to a couple of scientists first.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #169 - July 11, 2011, 10:27 PM

    I was bemused that an alim who apparently runs an institute in bristol was evading my questions,

    I was googling to try to guess who I think it was (Maulana Nagib Khan?),.. and I bumped into this little website which summarises nicely what Muslims believe: http://www.islamicinformationcentre.co.uk/muslims.htm

    The next time I debate with Muslims, and they argue about the evidence for evolution, I will ask them to provide evidence supporting all these absurd beliefs on that website.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #170 - July 11, 2011, 11:25 PM

    Is there something about the word philosophy which makes people think of voodoo and priest-doctors?  wacko Why are people so hostile towards it? I blame the epistemologists.  whistling2

    Philosophy on its own is fine in small portions as part of a healthy, balanced intellectual diet. But there is a point where it becomes impossible to have any meaningful conversation with someone who is too philosophical for philosophical sake.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #171 - July 12, 2011, 01:07 AM

    He has quite rightly explained why talking of miracle as a 'suspension of physical law' is a silly idea because physical laws are not set in stone, they are always liable to be changed because they are falsifiable hypotheses and yet the good atheists refuse to let go of their dictionaries.

    A.K.A trying to hold a sane discussion with someone who flip-flops back and forth between definitions.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #172 - July 12, 2011, 08:27 AM

    Hey, I have been looking for something like this for ages - did you get this from a website where all tafsir are searcheable?

    If so, have you got a link?



    I get the majority from altafsir.com - the Ibn Kathir ones I get here
    http://www.quran4u.com/Tafsir%20Ibn%20Kathir/Index.htm



    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #173 - July 12, 2011, 09:31 AM

    Philosophy on its own is fine in small portions as part of a healthy, balanced intellectual diet. But there is a point where it becomes impossible to have any meaningful conversation with someone who is too philosophical for philosophical sake.


    But when someone makes a statement that all that matters is 'real data', and philosophy is useless, you have to wonder what the fuck he thinks philosophy actually is, and what on earth he's doing trying to play spokesman for science. I get that dialectic can often be just an exercise in verbosity and word-play, but disregarding something because it's 'just philosophy' is an incredibly piss-poor argument.

    A.K.A trying to hold a sane discussion with someone who flip-flops back and forth between definitions.


    I haven't watched the video, but if Tortoise was just trying to agree a definition for the purpose of discussion, then that is the proper course of action in a debate... and the insistence that they use a definition present in a dictionary is, frankly, absolutely ridiculous.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #174 - July 12, 2011, 09:48 AM

    But when someone makes a statement that all that matters is 'real data', and philosophy is useless, you have to wonder what the fuck he thinks philosophy actually is, and what on earth he's doing trying to play spokesman for science. I get that dialectic can often be just an exercise in verbosity and word-play, but disregarding something because it's 'just philosophy' is an incredibly piss-poor argument.


    He wasn't arguing that philosophy is useless, he was arguing that you should not base conclusions on your philosophical ideas without hard evidence - simply for the fact that different people philosophise different answers to be credible.  Philosophy is VERY useful for forming ideas which should be tested, but it is not enough alone to determine what is likely to be true or false.


    I haven't watched the video, but if Tortoise was just trying to agree a definition for the purpose of discussion, then that is the proper course of action in a debate... and the insistence that they use a definition present in a dictionary is, frankly, absolutely ridiculous.


    If my memory is correct it was DPR who was asking that they agree on a definition.  He was merely trying to suggest that by default they use the definition in the dictionary which most people will infer as the meaning of the word, and whenever someone wishes to deviate from this definition they should make it clear in order to avoid misunderstandings.

    Perhaps you should watch the video and then object to things you witness rather than objecting to your interpretation of someone else's interpretation of what they think they recall someone said.  I tried to make that sentence a bit longer but couldn't think of any additional indirections Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #175 - July 12, 2011, 10:18 AM

    But when someone makes a statement that all that matters is 'real data', and philosophy is useless, you have to wonder what the fuck he thinks philosophy actually is, and what on earth he's doing trying to play spokesman for science. I get that dialectic can often be just an exercise in verbosity and word-play, but disregarding something because it's 'just philosophy' is an incredibly piss-poor argument.

    All that matters to him.

    What value does philosophy hold for the practical man?

    I haven't watched the video, but if Tortoise was just trying to agree a definition for the purpose of discussion, then that is the proper course of action in a debate... and the insistence that they use a definition present in a dictionary is, frankly, absolutely ridiculous.

    Why are you arguing about the content of a video you have not even seen? Silly rabbit.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #176 - July 12, 2011, 10:25 AM

    He wasn't arguing that philosophy is useless, he was arguing that you should not base conclusions on your philosophical ideas without hard evidence


    Er, I'll take your word for it. I'm only going by the quotes posted in the thread.

    Quote
    Perhaps you should watch the video and then object to things you witness rather than objecting to your interpretation of someone else's interpretation of what they think they recall someone said.  I tried to make that sentence a bit longer but couldn't think of any additional indirections Smiley


    Nah, I'd rather just make gaudy, self-important statements based on secondary information, it's so much more fun. Tongue Besides, these sort of debates tend to make me feel somewhat murderous.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #177 - July 12, 2011, 10:28 AM

    Er, I'll take your word for it. I'm only going by the quotes posted in the thread.


    Would you agree that philosophy is only a first step, a useful way of coming up with hypotheses? That it is a great place to start, and a terrible place to decide to stop?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #178 - July 12, 2011, 10:32 AM

    All that matters to him.

    He said 'him'?  Huh? In any case that's still a pretty silly statement.

    Quote
    What value does philosophy hold for the practical man?

    That would depend on how broad you hold 'philosophy' to be.

    Quote
    Why are you arguing about the content of a video you have not even seen? Silly rabbit.


    'Cos it's just so much easier than witnessing what was actually said. Tongue I don't like to waste opportunities to bash youtube-atheists.
  • Re: Hamza Tortoise on The Magic Sandwich Show!
     Reply #179 - July 12, 2011, 10:34 AM

    He said 'him'?  Huh? In any case that's still a pretty silly statement.


    Do you accept claims as facts without evidence?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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