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 Topic: Are you racist?

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  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #30 - September 04, 2011, 04:49 PM
    Quote from: strangestdude on September 03, 2011, 08:40 PM
    Thankfully my subconscious is alot better but I still dislike hearing urdu, clothing originating from the indo-pak subcontinent, and I still assume that if an Asian person isn't sociable towards me they are racist.

    Just to reitrate my racism is a subconscious inclination, not something consciously fostered or propagated. And although I'm black I still have a similar reaction to other black men who seem to be into 'urban' or west indian culture due to my childhood (not having stereotypically 'black' interests and being bullied as a result).


    That reminds me of a black guy I know who calls 'ghetto youth' black guys racist names. He says he feels embarassed by them. Which is semi comprehensible but silly at the same time. I think its a minority neurosis sometimes to feel associated with people for no other reason than they share the same ethnic background as you. Ultimately we define ourselves individually, and only individuals should receive our dislike, just as we'd like to be considered as individuals.

     

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #31 - September 04, 2011, 05:10 PM
    Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on September 03, 2011, 09:44 PM
    I liked your video, strangestdude, not sure if it revealed anything new going on in the ummah since the times of Ibn Khaldun, but who cares? Everything has been said already anyway.
    I am curious what kind of world would you like to see as it pertains to racism. I want to read Utopia, by strangestdude.


    Thanks for the appreciation. I know my vid says nothing new - another voice though.

    I like to see racism eradicated  grin12. It will probably never happen or will taken 1000's of years. Increasing interracial relationships and offspring will probably be the fundamental catalyst for change.

    Quote from: BerberElla on September 03, 2011, 10:15 PM
    Its terrible to say that its an almost guilty until proven innocent situation with them nowadays.

    This is down to bad experiences.  Stereotyping is ever a way at trying to define a world in which we feel unsafe in.  If you can know it quickly you can defend against it.  Its not good as an attitude, and I catch myself thinking or feeling this way and I know its wrong.  


    Thanks for your honest post Berbs.

    That's a great concise explanation for why I (and probably others) stereotype - still like you whenever I feel myself stereotyping I feel the same self-disdain.

    I remember myself and a white Imam discussing how we developed racism after becoming muslim due to our negative experiences in our community, and seeing the ethnocentricity in the Asian muslim community. One experience he had was being told by the local Deobandi Mufti that because he's white it would be a waste of his time looking for a wife in the area.

    What experiences have you had with Morrocans?

    Quote from: billy on September 04, 2011, 11:18 AM
    Nice videos, strangestdude.


    Thanks. Afro
    An alternative to religion;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #32 - September 04, 2011, 05:14 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on September 04, 2011, 01:25 PM
    Most of my life they treated me like an outsider anyway because I was half white, yet too brown, cultural stupidity and racism, all enhanced by religion, and ideas of raisin heads.


    I suppose you answered my question with this actually. Sorry to hear about your experiences.
    An alternative to religion;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #33 - September 04, 2011, 05:15 PM
    Quote from: strangestdude on September 04, 2011, 05:10 PM
    Increasing interracial relationships and offspring will probably be the fundamental catalyst for change.

    That's the key.


    And for once it's a positive pleasure to do one's bit for mankind.
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #34 - September 04, 2011, 05:20 PM
    LOL I would sooo agree, David, but now JT took my gf's side and I'm not sure anymore.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #35 - September 04, 2011, 05:36 PM
    Quote from: strangestdude on September 04, 2011, 05:10 PM


    I like to see racism eradicated  grin12. It will probably never happen or will taken 1000's of years. Increasing interracial relationships and offspring will probably be the fundamental catalyst for change.



    Thanks for the response, though quite pessimistic. I will assume for the sake of argument as you do that there are races. Billy said we shouldn't stereotype, treat everyone as an individual. I like that. My problem is, if I do that, how is it possible for me to assume that someone's actions are racist vs them just being an asshole to another human being or something?
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #36 - September 04, 2011, 05:48 PM
    There's a difference between race and ethnicity. There's no doubt people look different because they have adopted to different environments -- that's ethnicity. When people talk about race they mean a social hierarchy based on characteristics such as intelligence, etc. that are genetically inherited. This has no scientific soundness.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7eW27m9bio
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #37 - September 04, 2011, 05:57 PM
    Quote from: The Wyre on September 04, 2011, 04:09 PM
    I still tend to be prejudiced in this way. It's something I'm making a serious effort to change but I just can't help recalling so many women scootching away from me in the middle of salat, the dirty looks at religious functions and halal meat markets and the visible amount of effort Pakistani/Indian/Arab people seemed and seem to make in order to avoid me physically in various situations. I realize that this thought isn't given to everyone of those particular descents, just the ones who give me the side eye in social settings and more so from the ones who are visibly religious. I'm sure I'll build a bridge and get over it soon but it's still something I struggle with, unfortunately. -Shrug-


    It saddened me to hear about your experiences - unfortunately I've heard similar stories. The black and white guys I knew were deeply hurt and angered by their treatment, and most of them developed racist inclinations like us.

    Hopefully we'll emotionally move past our life as muslims.  far away hug
    An alternative to religion;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #38 - September 04, 2011, 06:04 PM
    Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on September 04, 2011, 05:36 PM
    Thanks for the response, though quite pessimistic. I will assume for the sake of argument as you do that there are races. Billy said we shouldn't stereotype, treat everyone as an individual. I like that. My problem is, if I do that, how is it possible for me to assume that someone's actions are racist vs them just being an asshole to another human being or something?


    If an individual is being racist he's being a racist individual. Parsing the difference between just being an equal opportunity asshole and a racist asshole is simple nine time out of ten, you can usually smell racist abuse or hostility because its self evident.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #39 - September 04, 2011, 06:30 PM
    @billy

    Intuitively I agree with you. Maybe there's no need for mental gymnastics here, but intuitively I would also think the Earth is flat. Right no I have to go and will write more later inshaallah, but intuitively I also feel that one has to be damaged by racism to even recognize it.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #40 - September 04, 2011, 07:41 PM
    Quote
    In the Hadith recorded in Mishkat al-Masabith, the Messenger of Allah (saaw) said: "He who calls for `Asabiyyah [nationalism/tribalism] is as if he bit his father's genitals."


    From:

    http://www.al-islami.com/islam/common_mistakes.php?p=10
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #41 - September 04, 2011, 07:50 PM
    Quote from: strangestdude on September 04, 2011, 04:37 PM
    I disagree that white people are as racist as Asians/somolian/arab/enthnocentric muslims (if that's what you are implying. Although racial tensions obviously exists it isn't that bad, as evidenced by the rise in Mixed race children, and also the majority don't tend to explicitly try to create an


    I'd say you do have a valid point but I wouldn't agree with it entirely. I've worked amongst white people (from various backgrounds) all my life & I find that well educated, better off white people tend to be far more tolerant than most including Asians. However, those whites of the lower classes who are less well educated are just as (if not more) xenophobic & racist than any race I've encountered. They also have an annoying tendency to blame their own woes on foreigners/immigrants but I'll concede that they are still less predujiced when it comes to marriage.
    With regards the BBC Asian Network poll you gave a link for, you have to understand that there are cultural differences between whites and ethnic minority asians when it comes to seeking partners & two of those differences are (rightly or wrongly) a long tradition of arranged marriages & very strong family values/bonds & involvement in marriage. Both of these factors will affect the mindset of young British asians. To simplistically label this as racism imo is unfair.
    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #42 - September 05, 2011, 12:25 AM
    Quote from: strangestdude on September 04, 2011, 05:57 PM
    It saddened me to hear about your experiences - unfortunately I've heard similar stories. The black and white guys I knew were deeply hurt and angered by their treatment, and most of them developed racist inclinations like us.

    Hopefully we'll emotionally move past our life as muslims.  far away hug


    Of course. It just takes a little time to undo the damage. We'll get there though.  hugs
    "I know where I'm going and I know the truth, and I don't have to be what you want me to be. I'm free to be what I want."
    Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #43 - September 05, 2011, 12:26 AM
    I don't hate anyone because of their colour or culture for no reason whatsoever. However, I am cautious with certain people of certain groups

    Racism (prejudism) is a defence mechanism. If you touch the red thing and burn your hand, you won't be so quick to touch other red things, especially if this happens repeatedly. If you meet a black person who's nasty, then meet 5 more who are nasty, you'll form a judgement. You won't hate the next black person after they prove they're good, but for self preservation you will be caustious and have preconceived ideas on their character. Same with other colours/cultures

    Asian men are often mysogynistic, so I'm wary and on my guard with them

    Due to media/television and indoctrination from peers you don't have to have actual contact to form an opinion- growing up with MTV makes me feel intimidated of black people- the women are hoochy and aggressive bitches, the men just want to fuck any 'ho', etc. I know this isn't true but, nevertheless, I keep having to remind myself of this

    Racism is further ingrained by positive reiforcement which is largely done by segregation of races. Indians all tend to live together in a small area, same with pakis, blacks, etc- they mix with 'their own kind' and promote xenophobic ideas (black/whites are dirty etc). In the absense of any real life experience many people grow up to be racist.

    Yes, people like to stick to their own kind. I was taught that this meant other indian muslims, but realised that they were not my kind of people, they were nothing like me. My kind is not determined by colour but by so many other factors, mind mainly. My bf is my kind, he's white

    I don't believe white people are generally as racist as asians as this has been beaten out of them. Mere accusations of racism to a white person makes them reel, so much so that a coloured 'minority' can pretty much get away with anything if they bandy the word around, as seen today with muslims!

  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #44 - September 05, 2011, 12:37 AM
    Saffire, it would be very interesting to live your world.
    fuck you
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #45 - September 05, 2011, 12:41 AM
    OK, so HomoSapien gives one example of how easy it is to "recognize" racism where there may be none. We (most of us, damaged by this ugly thing) immediately assume that announcement of "asians only" on a mate searching site is racist, while they may be about family values and culture 9 times out of 10.

    In the cases such as above we look for patterns, we generalize thus billy's "individual" is no more. We jump to conclusions about people because of our racist views. If we are truly against racism and value individual why not give up generalizations and stereotypes altogether.

    When we get to an individual level and we experience something with a new person about whose views we know nothing, how can we tell if we or someone next to us experienced racism? Don't we have to assume first of all that the person in question is different (racially, whatever that means) and also views us that way and how can you tell that they're not having a bad day or simply don't like us on an individual level or both.

    I admit that there are many times when we can clearly see someone acting racist. However we always assume (because obviously we can't get into someone else's head) so how do you know how often you jump to conclusions too fast. That's what stereotyping helps one do - jump to conclusions. So, you see a person of race X doing something not very nice to a person of race Y. What do you think first? I think - racism. But to me that only proves that I am a racist for thinking that way ant who knows how many times judging people completely wrong for it.  If I had no racism in me to begin with how could I even imagine or dare to assume that what one person does to another is because of race?

    So there I admitted it - I also have been damaged by racism. I was only a kid, and they told me that we are all different. What was I supposed to believe?
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #46 - September 05, 2011, 12:44 AM
    ^ True

    +1
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #47 - September 05, 2011, 12:48 AM
    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on September 05, 2011, 12:37 AM
    Saffire, it would be very interesting to live your world.


    My world is a psychotic tripped out alice in wonderland existence. It certainly is interesting but I only know enough to know that I know nothing. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, right.

    I actually don't really know what you mean by this statement. I don't know what you mean by my world. You mean my life or the way I think?
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #48 - September 05, 2011, 12:55 AM
    I mean a world where you rarely interact with Black folks in real life and where all the White folks are afraid of being called racist. Where I live is mostly Black and the White folks don't give a fuck if you think they're racist or not (which a lot of them are).
    fuck you
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #49 - September 05, 2011, 01:10 AM
    Quote from: Saffire on September 05, 2011, 12:26 AM
    I don't hate anyone because of their colour or culture for no reason whatsoever. However, I am cautious with certain people of certain groups

    Racism (prejudism) is a defence mechanism. If you touch the red thing and burn your hand, you won't be so quick to touch other red things, especially if this happens repeatedly. If you meet a black person who's nasty, then meet 5 more who are nasty, you'll form a judgement. You won't hate the next black person after they prove they're good, but for self preservation you will be caustious and have preconceived ideas on their character. Same with other colours/cultures

    Asian men are often mysogynistic, so I'm wary and on my guard with them

    Due to media/television and indoctrination from peers you don't have to have actual contact to form an opinion- growing up with MTV makes me feel intimidated of black people- the women are hoochy and aggressive bitches, the men just want to fuck any 'ho', etc. I know this isn't true but, nevertheless, I keep having to remind myself of this

    Racism is further ingrained by positive reiforcement which is largely done by segregation of races. Indians all tend to live together in a small area, same with pakis, blacks, etc- they mix with 'their own kind' and promote xenophobic ideas (black/whites are dirty etc). In the absense of any real life experience many people grow up to be racist.

    Yes, people like to stick to their own kind. I was taught that this meant other indian muslims, but realised that they were not my kind of people, they were nothing like me. My kind is not determined by colour but by so many other factors, mind mainly. My bf is my kind, he's white

    I don't believe white people are generally as racist as asians as this has been beaten out of them. Mere accusations of racism to a white person makes them reel, so much so that a coloured 'minority' can pretty much get away with anything if they bandy the word around, as seen today with muslims!




    @Saffire

    1. Thank you for +1
    2. Your post above proves to me my long held belief that using and perpetuating labels is what causes the problem in the first place and the only way to truly rid ourselves from racism is to give them up.

    I've discussed this issue a little in antiquity in a thread where members of the forum brought in racism and turned the thread about it when there may have been no need for it.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #50 - September 05, 2011, 01:12 AM
    Really?

    In my life I've hardly mixed with black people. When I went to uni in Cambridge I met a few there and became good friends with them, but literally only a handful. Growing up, in my town there were no black people. I never was very outgoing so didn't mix with many different cultures. When I started to go clubbing I mixed with a mixture of people but to be honest I was always slightly 'afraid' of black people. Not because I was racist, it was more like a sort of awe. I think they're so cool, that's so sad I know but they look so regal, esp the super dark black people. This is odd since in asian culture black people are considered low, but I was so fascinated by them. I have no idea where I got this stereotype from.

    Most white folk I mixed with was either through education (school, college, uni) or work. I suppose the allegations of racism in such places is taboo and offensive.

    In general, I probably have a warped view of 'real people' since I'm very much a loner. I mix with a handful of people but generally keep to myself and my family.
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #51 - September 05, 2011, 03:37 AM
    I am racist, only against desis.
    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #52 - September 05, 2011, 03:39 AM
    Quote from: strangestdude on September 04, 2011, 05:10 PM
    Increasing interracial relationships


    I'm doing my best.  Afro Cheesy
    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #53 - September 05, 2011, 03:45 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on September 03, 2011, 10:15 PM
    I'm not racist. I have black friends.  Grin

    No seriously, I wish I could put my hand on my heart and say I am not racist at all, but I think I am to some.

    If racism is stereotyping and discriminating against someone due to their country of origin, then the fact that I instantly feel creeped out and on guard around moroccan men and would discriminate against one when it came to dating, then I guess I am.  Especially if one of the litmus tests is to date or marry a person of the race in question.

    It's not racism since Islam is not a race, but also any muslim also gets my back up.  I have like instant judgements that I find hard to shake off.

    Its terrible to say that its an almost guilty until proven innocent situation with them nowadays.  To me they must surely think of me as trash for being an ex muslim, so my judgement is instant, and it is then on them to show they don't.

    Same as for a Moroccan man, guilty until proven innocent.  Same for the females, two faced cows until proven better. 

    This is down to bad experiences.  Stereotyping is ever a way at trying to define a world in which we feel unsafe in.  If you can know it quickly you can defend against it.  Its not good as an attitude, and I catch myself thinking or feeling this way and I know its wrong. 

    I wouldn't discriminate in work, or those sort of situations, but I do discriminate almost instantly for dating or friendship and that is a fail part of me I think.




    Ok Hitler
    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #54 - September 05, 2011, 04:04 AM
    Quote from: Jesus Christ on September 05, 2011, 03:37 AM
    I am racist, only against desis.


    can you please tell me what a "desi" is?  I guessing south asian, but why not
    arabs, since they live in the desert/desi? LOL

    I was born and raised in tokyo, (dad did that on purpose to deliberately keep us
    as far away as possible from bigotry and xenophobia back in the states) until we
    were young adults. 

    It was AWESOME growing up in an international environment, my school mates
    were all from almost every country around the world.  A bit of innocent paradise,
    really, as we were too busy having fun with each other to worry about what ethnic
    background one was from, or let poitics of their countries interfere with us just
    being kids and hanging around.

    Talk about culture shock moving to the USA at 17!  I had visited the states off and
    on, but by 16 had already travelled around the world. 

    Dad constantly told us, "Show respect to everyone no matter where they
    are from or what they look like until they prove otherwise", and
    "Live and let live"

    He had a poster that hung behind his desk at his office that said,
    "A child is not an adult to be molded, but an individual unfolded"


    So based on that upbringing, while i struggled with various biases
    and worked on sorting out how i really felt about people, I still took
    them each on an individual basis, individual merit.  Sure, Ive been
    on the shit end of "racism", bigotry, prejudice, but my principles
    are deeply engrained so I did not reciprocate.
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #55 - September 05, 2011, 04:08 AM
    Im not racist, well maybe a little but only against black people and Jews..... especially Jews.
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #56 - September 05, 2011, 04:16 AM
    I'm not racist, nor do i even discriminate based on race, but I acknowledge the fact that there are racial traits that are evident to specific races, be it due to genetics or the culture they live in.

    For example, you have to admit that africans are generally taller and have bigger dicks than, say, asians.
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #57 - September 05, 2011, 04:19 AM
     ^   Cheesy

    And why generally thats true, its not ALWAYS the case...
    trust me on this one lol.
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #58 - September 05, 2011, 04:20 AM
    You met an Asian with a big dick?
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Are you racist?
     Reply #59 - September 05, 2011, 04:22 AM
    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on September 05, 2011, 04:04 AM
    can you please tell me what a "desi" is?  I guessing south asian, but why not
    arabs, since they live in the desert/desi? LOL


    It means Indians, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, Sri Lankans. I discount Pashtuns and Nepalis/Bhutanese.
    Formerly known as Iblis
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