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Theme Changer

 Topic: Yo Lynna!

 (Read 7994 times)
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  • Yo Lynna!
     OP - October 25, 2011, 04:53 PM

    All those omni- words are something I want to work on for my own understanding because they are not something my religion uses to discribe  God. They're not all accurate.


    If you don't believe that God is the 3 omni's then the questions don't apply to you. Sorry, I assumed you did.

    Quote
    The Deuteronomy 28:15-68 is symbolic language, that is aways slows going. However if there is an actual interest I could make an attempt.  Cut and paste sort of stuff from references.


    What does it symbolize?

    It seems like a clear threat from Yahweh to those who disobey him to me.

    Quote
    15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you:

     16 You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country.

     17 Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed.

     18 The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.

     19 You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.

    20 The LORD will send on you curses, confusion and rebuke in everything you put your hand to, until you are destroyed and come to sudden ruin because of the evil you have done in forsaking him. 21 The LORD will plague you with diseases until he has destroyed you from the land you are entering to possess. 22 The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish. 23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron. 24 The LORD will turn the rain of your country into dust and powder; it will come down from the skies until you are destroyed.

     25 The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You will come at them from one direction but flee from them in seven, and you will become a thing of horror to all the kingdoms on earth. 26 Your carcasses will be food for all the birds and the wild animals, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 27 The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28 The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind. 29 At midday you will grope about like a blind person in the dark. You will be unsuccessful in everything you do; day after day you will be oppressed and robbed, with no one to rescue you.

     30 You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. 31 Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. 34 The sights you see will drive you mad. 35 The LORD will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head.

     36 The LORD will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your ancestors. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. 37 You will become a thing of horror, a byword and an object of ridicule among all the peoples where the LORD will drive you.

     38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off. 41 You will have sons and daughters but you will not keep them, because they will go into captivity. 42 Swarms of locusts will take over all your trees and the crops of your land.

     43 The foreigners who reside among you will rise above you higher and higher, but you will sink lower and lower. 44 They will lend to you, but you will not lend to them. They will be the head, but you will be the tail.

     45 All these curses will come on you. They will pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the LORD your God and observe the commands and decrees he gave you. 46 They will be a sign and a wonder to you and your descendants forever. 47 Because you did not serve the LORD your God joyfully and gladly in the time of prosperity, 48 therefore in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and dire poverty, you will serve the enemies the LORD sends against you. He will put an iron yoke on your neck until he has destroyed you.

     49 The LORD will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a fierce-looking nation without respect for the old or pity for the young. 51 They will devour the young of your livestock and the crops of your land until you are destroyed. They will leave you no grain, new wine or olive oil, nor any calves of your herds or lambs of your flocks until you are ruined. 52 They will lay siege to all the cities throughout your land until the high fortified walls in which you trust fall down. They will besiege all the cities throughout the land the LORD your God is giving you.

     53 Because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the LORD your God has given you. 54 Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, 55 and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. 56 The most gentle and sensitive woman among you—so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot—will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter 57 the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For in her dire need she intends to eat them secretly because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of your cities.

     58 If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name—the LORD your God— 59 the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. 60 He will bring on you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. 61 The LORD will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62 You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the LORD your God. 63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

     64 Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods—gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your ancestors have known. 65 Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the LORD will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. 66 You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. 67 In the morning you will say, “If only it were evening!” and in the evening, “If only it were morning!”—because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. 68 The LORD will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.

  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #1 - October 27, 2011, 04:50 PM

     Well nice Strangedude,

    Right now I on my cellphone not my laptop so no cut and paste, Nothing, I just have one screen I'm typing on, can't even peek back to refresh my mind what you said,

    Anyhow since you are interested I will try to get to a place today where I can use my laptop.

    For now:

    When Jehovah put the anceint nation of Israel is the promised land he put before them the blessing and the maladiction. Jehovah wanted a people for his name a people who chose the blessing of their own free will and received the assistance from him for all the good things. If they chose to turn their back on him, he would not bless them. They'd be on their own. When I read the bad things I think, "Kind of like now days good people work hard and bad things happen. It's just hard it get a head". But another thing when thinking about this maladiction is how long did that anceint nation go on repeatedly making wrong choices and God showing mercy and saying okay try again.

    Symbolic language. You bold printed some of those. That did not go unnoticed. I just want to be very sure of correct meaning.

    Anyhow more later if continued interest.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #2 - October 27, 2011, 05:21 PM

    Are you basically saying that the 'default' circumstances for the nation of Israel was the abhorrent things mentioned in those verses, and it's only because of God's blessing that these things didn't happen frequently?

    If that is the case then God is a monster.

    Why create a 'default' set of circumstances where people are inflicted with incomprehensible suffering (as outlined in those verse)?

    And why only choose to to save them from those default set of circumstances if they are a sycophant towards you?
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #3 - October 27, 2011, 11:47 PM

    Okay Strangestdude, are you thinking that God is actually micro-managing this situation?

    I think the teaching I have in mind is called predistenation. I don't believe in this so I'm just asking you about if that is the idea you have in mind. This where every detail of everything is spelled out in advance.

    If so this is not how it happen in the case of choosing the maladiction.

    Some things just happen. That would be an accident.

    Some things happen because of making wrong choices.  This could be because people may lack knowledge, wisedom or both. Perhaps can't see the big picture. Or just not a big enough picture.

    Anyhow I'm charging mylap top so tomorrow I can drive into town and hook into some ones wifi. There are several places that are fine with it. I don't like to just hook to places I don't know.



    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #4 - October 28, 2011, 04:45 PM

    Okay Strangestdude, are you thinking that God is actually micro-managing this situation?


    You wrote this...

    Quote
    When Jehovah put the anceint nation of Israel is the promised land he put before them the blessing and the maladiction. Jehovah wanted a people for his name a people who chose the blessing of their own free will and received the assistance from him for all the good things. If they chose to turn their back on him, he would not bless them. They'd be on their own.


    I took it too imply that without God's blessing on the nation of Israel the 'default' situation is the incredible circumstances outlined in the deutronomy verses. 

    If God knew (even if he doesn't micromanage) the circumstances that awaited the children of Israel (the rapes, murders, slavery and cannibalism) why did he create those circumstances?

    Was God ignorant of the choices they would make, or was he omniscient?

    Was God ignorant of the awful nature of the 'default' circumstances he was creating, or was he indifferent?

    Was God powerless to change the circumstances?

    And why is he only willing to bestow his 'blessing' on them if they are sychophants towards him?  Because that isn't mercy, that's reciprocity
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #5 - October 29, 2011, 08:52 AM

    I've been having one of those days.
    To cold to sit in car in town so can get on line.
    Can't open CD on laptop with lots of reference works.
    Was reading books until I was blind and on input overload.

    Okay.

    Omniscient.
    My dictionary says that means: knowing all things.
    That was useless information. I knewn more then that about it.
    I don't know all the things that Christendom teaches about this word applied to God but my personal opinion is that this is not correct.
    This is why:
    - Accidents happen.
      Ecclesiastes 9:11b ...because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all.
      We can look at things that happen in our lives and see that not everything goes as planned.
      Another scripture that refers to an accident is 1 Samuel 6:9.
    - People have freedom of choice.
      If Jehovah knew inadvance how a person was going to choose where would their choice be. Does God have a good idea what a person might do. Yes. From my point of view he made us he knows how we think. 
      The fact that the blessing and maladiction was discribe showed how the people would act was not pre known but influencable.
      This is easier to show with the account of Cain and Able because it's shorter. Genesis 4:1-16. Unfortunate for Able, Cain was not influenced.

    That said there are things Jehovah can and does know in advance. Prophecy 

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #6 - October 31, 2011, 04:45 AM


    Was God ignorant of the choices they would make, or was he omniscient?


    I've been doing some more research into the exact meaning of the word and concept of omnisicient.  Kind of interesting I've got a few others helping me look up things.  Actually very complex issue.



    Was God ignorant of the awful nature of the 'default' circumstances he was creating,,,?


    God did not create or cause the circumstances that occurred as a result of that ancient nation choosing the maladictionin every event. Yes some of the specific event were prophecied. However even in those cases if the people had choosen the blessing or had turned back from whichever wrong course they were on at the time they could have avoid their problem.

    THINGS I DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT YOUR QUESTIONS **** THNGS I DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT YOUR QUESTIONS
    I'm having some difficulty understanding why you are blaming God (or thinking it is God fault that those people chose to do wrong things i.e. rape, murder...) when they used their own freedom of choice to do those things.

    People have free choice with that comes resposibility for what you do.

    I didn't understand the word sychopant so I looked it up in the dictionary. Why do you think that is the relationship God what's with humans/

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #7 - November 01, 2011, 10:33 AM

    I don't know all the things that Christendom teaches about this word applied to God but my personal opinion is that this is not correct.


    Ok so what do you believe is the extent of God's Knowledge?

    Quote
    God did not create or cause the circumstances that occurred as a result of that ancient nation choosing the maladictionin every event.


    If you believe that God was the 'first cause', and/or that only through God's power things occur then God is responsible (by definition of being the first cause).

    Quote
    Yes some of the specific event were prophecied.


    So God saw what was potentially going to occur to the nation of Israel, but was powerless to help them unless the turned to him in worship? Why is God's help only contingent on worship? Like I previously stated that's not mercy that's reciprocity.

    Quote
    I'm having some difficulty understanding why you are blaming God


    Because God is the 'first cause' and by definition responsible for the universe. Also from what you've written it seemed to be within God's power to bestow blessings to prevent such occurrences, but he refrained from doing so unless they turned to him in worship.

    Quote
    People have free choice with that comes responsibility for what you do.


    Because you wrote wrote the above I think you have to agree with my conclusion; because God chose to create the universe then he is to blame for whatever happens - good, tragic, or bad. Part of worship is acknowledging that God is responsible for the universe, correct?

    And you also believe that God is an intervening force on the universe (you stated that you weren't a deist) and that means that it is within his power to change and prevent the tragic circumstances that befall human beings, but he presumable chooses not to?

    Quote
    Why do you think that is the relationship God what's with humans


    You stated that God would prevent the potential circumstances that he outlines in deutronomy if the nation of Israel turned to him in worship.

    Sycophant definition; A servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people.

    That's what God seems to desire. He wants people to please him, he wants people to flatter him, he wants people to serve him - and then he will utilize his influence upon their lives and choose to bestow his blessings upon them.  


  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #8 - November 07, 2011, 01:53 AM

    Okay I've been meaning to get  back to this for a while. There is a great deal of informationon the subject and diverse direction to go with a conversation and your question are quite all over the board. So here I go with some a attempt to go in a logical direction the will answer your questions.

    Ok so what do you believe is the extent of God's Knowledge?


    The extent of Jehovah's knowledge would be endless. From my understanding of what the Bible say and  that I believe he is the creator of the physical and spirit creation his knowledge compared to even the total knowledge of all mankind is endless.  Even this is poor choice of word to discribe the extent of God's knowledge.

    So God saw what was potentially going to occur to the nation of Israel, but was powerless to help them unless the turned to him in worship? Why is God's help only contingent on worship? Like I previously stated that's not mercy that's reciprocity.


    No, powerless to change things was not the issue. The ancient Isrealites just like you and I have freedom of choice. So like I have already said a choice was given to them. THEY MADE THEIR CHOICE. They had a way out. I've cut and paste an article (part 6 of an article) sorry it's kind of long but like I said you asked about a complex subject. So hopeful that article helps explain that the large issue of who's rule is right was also being determined. So if God intervened to help them out when they choose self rule then really he was not letting them make their own choice was but was dictating what they must do.
    Does God Really Care About Us?
    Part 6
    Why God Has Permitted Suffering
    WHAT went wrong? What took place that spoiled the fine start God gave our first parents in the Paradise of Eden? Why, instead of the peace and harmony of Paradise, have wickedness and suffering prevailed for thousands of years?

    The reason is that Adam and Eve misused their free will. They lost sight of the fact that they were not created to prosper apart from God and his laws. They decided to become independent of God, thinking that this would improve their lives. So they stepped outside the God-ordained limits of free will.—Genesis, chapter 3.

    The Issue of Universal Sovereignty
    Why did God not just destroy Adam and Eve and start over with another human pair? Because his universal sovereignty, that is, his inalienable right to rule, had been challenged.

    The question was: Who has the right to rule, and whose rule is right? His being almighty and the Creator of all creatures gives God the right to rule over them. Since he is all-wise, his rule is best for all creatures. But God's rule had now been challenged. Also, was there something wrong with his creation—man? We will later examine how the question of human integrity is involved.

    Shuttle:
    Based on NASA photo

    God has allowed time for humans to come to the peak of their achievements

    By man's becoming independent of God, another question was implied: Could humans do better if not ruled by God? The Creator certainly knew the answer, but a sure way for humans to find out was to allow them the total freedom they wanted. They chose that course of their own free will, so God permitted it.

    By allowing humans enough time to experiment with total freedom, God would establish for all time whether humans are better off under God's rule or on their own. And the time permitted would have to be long enough to allow humans to come to what they considered the peak of their political, industrial, scientific, and medical achievements.

    Therefore, God has allowed man a free rein clear down to our day to show beyond any doubt whether human rule independent of him can succeed. Thus man has been able to choose between kindness and cruelty, between love and hate, between righteousness and unrighteousness. But he has also been confronted with the consequences of his choice: goodness and peace or wickedness and suffering.

    Rebellion of Spirit Creatures
    There is another factor to consider. Our original parents were not the only ones to rebel against God's rule. But who else was in existence at the time? Spirit creatures. Before God created humans, he created a higher form of life, great numbers of angels, to live in the heavenly realm. They too were created with free will and also with the need to submit to God's rule.—Job 38:7; Psalm 104:4 Revelation 5:11.

    The Bible shows that rebellion first broke out in the spirit realm. A spirit creature wanted total freedom. He even wanted humans to worship him. (Matthew 4:8, 9) This spirit rebel became a factor in influencing Adam and Eve to rebel, claiming falsely that God was withholding something good from them. (Genesis 3:1-5) So he is called Devil (Slanderer) and Satan (Adversary). Later, he induced other spirit creatures to rebel. They became known as demons.—Deuteronomy 32:17; Revelation 12:9; 16:14.

    Humans, by rebelling against God, gave themselves over to the influence of Satan and his demons. That is why the Bible calls Satan "the god of this system of things," who "has blinded the minds of the unbelievers." Hence, God's Word says that "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." Jesus himself called Satan "the ruler of this world."—2 Corinthians 4:4; John 5:19; John 12:31.

    Two Issues
    Satan raised another issue that challenged God. In effect, he charged that God was mistaken in the way He created humans and that no one would want to do the right thing when put under pressure. In fact, he claimed that under test they would even curse God. (Job 2:1-5) In this way Satan called into question the integrity of the human creation.

    Therefore, God has permitted enough time for all intelligent creatures to see how this issue as well as the issue of God's sovereignty would be resolved. (Compare Exodus 9:16.) The eventual experience of human history would reveal the truth about these two issues.

    First of all, what would time reveal regarding the issue of universal sovereignty, the rightness of God's rule? Could humans rule themselves better than God? Would any system of human rule apart from God usher in a happy world free from war, crime, and injustice? Would any eliminate poverty and provide prosperity for all? Would any conquer sickness, old age, and death? God's rule was designed to do all of that.—Genesis 1:26-31.

    Regarding the second issue, what would time reveal as to the worth of the human creation? Was it a mistake for God to have created humans the way he did? Would any of them do the right thing under test? Would any people show that they wanted God's rule instead of independent human rule?
     
    -If you believe that God was the 'first cause', and/or that only through God's power things occur then God is responsible (by definition of being the first cause).
    -Because God is the 'first cause' and by definition responsible for the universe. Also from what you've written it seemed to be within God's power to bestow blessings to prevent such occurrences, but he refrained from doing so unless they turned to him in worship.
    -Because you wrote wrote the above I think you have to agree with my conclusion; because God chose to create the universe then he is to blame for whatever happens - good, tragic, or bad. Part of worship is acknowledging that God is responsible for the universe, correct?
    -And you also believe that God is an intervening force on the universe (you stated that you weren't a deist) and that means that it is within his power to change and prevent the tragic circumstances that befall human beings, but he presumable chooses not to?


    No I don't have to agree with you that since God created everything he would be responsible for what agents of free will did in that creation.  That is not even logical. It is the whining victim cop out. Humans and angel were created with intelligent functioning brains the ability to reason and choose. God is not responsible for their wrong choices. It is a whole other subject however but more then ever chance and chance again is given everyone.
    Simplifing it in to human court standards it would be like saying as long as your parents were a live they would be responsible for everything that you did because they gave birth to you. That is rediculus. It is obvious that you are a sperate being from your parent able to deside independently of them. Likewise it is obvious that you like the ancient Israelites are independent of God and have free will.


    Sycophant definition; A servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people.

    That's what God seems to desire. He wants people to please him, he wants people to flatter him, he wants people to serve him - and then he will utilize his influence upon their lives and choose to bestow his blessings upon them.  


    Thank you for looking up sycophant again for me. I am quite sure this not the relationship the Jehovah wants with humans and angels. However, I can understand why/how people have come to feel that way with how some religions are. Part one of that article had some information about God care about individuals, will so does the part that I posted if you are still interested I suppose I can post more.


    I also found a nice article on omnicient if you would like me to post it. It seems I was right in principle but wrong in detail.

    Also If you would like this seems like a nice place to post some details about Noah's Ark if you like.





    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #9 - November 09, 2011, 12:54 PM

    OK...

    So you agree that God's knowledge is endless, and you also agree that God chose to create the world.

    So you believe that God chose to create the universe, with the full knowledge of what choices 'spirit creatures' and human beings would make.

    If God made the choice to create the universe, with full knowledge of the outcome then he is responsible for everything - tragic, good and evil.

    He could have chose to create the universe with a different outcome. Or he could have simply chose not to create the universe.

    But he chose to create the universe, with the full knowledge of every event that would proceed - so how is he not responsible?

    Quote
    Simplifing it in to human court standards it would be like saying as long as your parents were a live they would be responsible for everything that you did because they gave birth to you. That is rediculus. It is obvious that you are a sperate being from your parent able to deside independently of them. Likewise it is obvious that you like the ancient Israelites are independent of God and have free will.


    If god had limited fore-knowledge likes human being then you're analogy would make sense, but like you stated God's knowledge is endless.

    Parents don't unlimited fore-knowledge unlike God, nor do they have supernatural interventionist powers.

    God knew fully what choices we were going to make before we made them, and still chose to create us in the manner that he did.

    Quote
    I am quite sure this not the relationship the Jehovah wants with humans and angels.


    God drowned men, women and children in Noah's flood, and threatened (or prophesied) that the atrocities in Deuteronomy would occur, unless the 'turned to him in worship' - so I think that the relationship of sycophant is applicable.

    Like I wrote blessing someone because they worship you isn't mercy, it's reciprocity.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #10 - November 10, 2011, 07:45 AM

    OK...
    So you agree that God's knowledge is endless, and you also agree that God chose to create the world.
    So you believe that God chose to create the universe, with the full knowledge of what choices 'spirit creatures' and human beings would make.


    No, I have never said that God's knowledge included what choices each individual would make. I have been very clear that humans have freedom of choice. God having a great deal of knowledge and being aware of of what choices might be made warned the ancient Isaelites against those choices and told them what would happen if they made those choices. Please consider the difference in the meanings of the words could and would. These two words are not interchangeable.

    If God made the choice to create the universe, with full knowledge of the outcome then he is responsible for everything - tragic, good and evil.


    So , you present the problem, "If God made the choice to create the universe with full knowledge of the out come then responsible for every thing tragic, good and evil"  What I am saying isThe problem don't exist as you present it.This is why.

    1) Deuteronomy 11:26 “See, I am putting before YOU today blessing and malediction: 27 the blessing, provided YOU will obey the commandments of Jehovah YOUR God that I am commanding YOU today; 28 and the malediction, if YOU will not obey the commandments of Jehovah YOUR God and YOU do turn aside from the way about which I am commanding YOU today, so as to walk after other gods whom YOU have not known.
    Deuteronomy 11:26-28 is instruction given to the ancient nation of Israel about the situation in the promised land. It clearly shows they had a choice. If they had no choice and it was already predetermined what would happen it would have been pointless to have gone through giving them a choice.
    2) 1Timothy 2:3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.
    1 Timothy 2:3-4 states clearly rather clearly that it is acceptable in the sight of God that all sorts of men (as in all mankind) come to accurate of truth and be saved. So from  a Biblical point of view if individuals of mankind did not have choice with in their grasp we would not be having this conversation. Everyone would just do God's will but God chose to let individual humans have their own choice. Therefore we are responsible as individuals for what we choose to do.
    3)James 1:13 When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.
    James 1:13-15 states that God does not try anyone with evil things but these verses indicates  a source of trials.

    Now, if you as an individual with free will don't want to believe what the Bible says that of course is your choice.
    However, if you want to blame the God of the Bible for the problem that exist because of mankinds bad chooses you are misinformed.
    Or, perhaps you know enough about the Bible to find the scriptures that says that God is  responsible for every wrong choice of each individual humans.


    He could have chose to create the universe with a different outcome. Or he could have simply chose not to create the universe.


    What exactly do you think is wrong with the prophecied outcome for the earth and mankind?  And as for your second suggestion not creating the universe. I suppose it's to late for that now, anyhow I don't find any reason to discuss it.

    But he chose to create the universe, with the full knowledge of every event that would proceed - so how is he not responsible?


    I don't know how many diffferent way you're going to  try this but it still wont change the fact that human's (and angels) have free will. That means God did not (doesn't) predetermine what we are going to do.

    Perhaps this article will help.


    THE BIBLE’S VIEWPOINT
    Is Your Future Predestined?


    Related topics:
    •   Does the Bible Foretell the Future?
    •   Is Astrology the Key to Your Future?
    Many people believe that their life and future are predestined by a higher power. They feel that from conception to death, we all follow a script already written in the mind of God. ‘After all,’ they say, ‘God is all-powerful and all-knowing, or omniscient, so surely he must know every detail about the past, the present, and the future.’
    WHAT do you think? Does God foreordain our life course and ultimate destiny? In other words, is free will genuine or just an illusion? What does the Bible say?
    Total or Selective Foreknowledge?
    The Bible leaves us in no doubt as to God’s having foreknowledge. He knows “from the beginning the finale,” says Isaiah 46:10. He even used human secretaries to record many prophecies. (2 Peter 1:21) What is more, those prophecies always come true because God has both the wisdom and the power to fulfill them in every detail. Hence, God can not only foreknow but also foreordain events whenever he chooses to do so. However, does God foreordain the destiny of every human or even the total number who will gain salvation? Not according to the Bible.
    The Bible teaches that God is selective when it comes to foreordaining the future. For example, God foretold that “a great crowd” of righteous humans would survive the destruction of the wicked at the end of the present system of things. (Revelation 7:9, 14) Note, though, that God did not give a specific number for that great crowd. The reason? He does not predestinate individuals. God is like the loving father of a large family. He knows that at least some of His children will reciprocate His love, but He does not predetermine the number.
    Compare God’s use of foreordination with the way he uses his power. As the Almighty, God has absolute power. (Psalm 91:1; Isaiah 40:26, 28) But does he use his power in an uncontrolled manner? No. For instance, he held back from acting against Babylon, an enemy of ancient Israel, until the time was right. “I kept exercising self-control,” God said. (Isaiah 42:14) The same principle applies to his use of foreknowledge and foreordination. Jehovah exercises self-control in order to respect the free will that he gave us.
    God’s control of his powers does not limit him or render him imperfect. In fact, it magnifies his greatness, and it endears him to us, for it shows that his sovereignty truly is exercised not only with omniscience and power but also with love and respect for the free will of his intelligent creation.
    On the other hand, if God predetermines everything, including every nasty accident and vile deed that has ever happened, could we not rightly blame him for all the misery and suffering in the world? Thus, upon closer inspection, the teaching of predestination does not honor God, but casts a pall over him. It paints him as cruel, unjust, and unloving—the very opposite of what the Bible says about him.—Deuteronomy 32:4.
    The Bible teaches that God is selective when it comes to foreordaining the future
    The Choice Is Yours
    By means of his servant Moses, God said to the nation of Israel: “I have put life and death before you, . . . and you must choose life . . . by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days.” (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) Had God predestinated each Israelite either to love him and gain life or to disregard him and merit death, His words would have been both meaningless and insincere. Do you believe that God, “a lover of justice” and the very personification of love, would act in such an arbitrary way?—Psalm 37:28; 1 John 4:8.
    God’s appeal to his servants to choose life applies even more so to us today, for the fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that we are rapidly approaching the end of the present system of things. (Matthew 24:3-9; 2 Timothy 3:1-5) How do we choose life? We do so in essentially the same way as the ancient Israelites did.
    How Can You “Choose Life”?
    We choose life by “loving Jehovah,” by “listening to his voice,” and by “sticking to him.” Of course, we can only do these things when we know God as a person and understand his requirements for us. In prayer to God, Jesus Christ said: “This is eternal life, to know you, the only true God, and him whom you have sent—Jesus Christ.”—Italics ours; John 17:3, Phillips.
    That precious knowledge can be found in the pages of the Holy Bible, rightly called the Word of God. (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16) Indeed, this spiritual gift is a tangible evidence that God has not predestined our future but wants us to make informed choices based on information he has provided.—Isaiah 48:17, 18.
    By means of the Bible, God is, in effect, saying to us: ‘This is my purpose for mankind and the earth, and this is what you should do to gain everlasting life. It is now up to you to decide whether to listen to me or disregard me.’ Yes, how perfectly God balances his powers of foreordination with his respect for our free will! Will you choose life “by listening to [God’s] voice and by sticking to him”?


    If god had limited fore-knowledge likes human being then you're analogy would make sense, but like you stated God's knowledge is endless.

    Parents don't unlimited fore-knowledge unlike God, nor do they have supernatural interventionist powers.

    God knew fully what choices we were going to make before we made them, and still chose to create us in the manner that he did.


    I think all this has been adressed.

    God drowned men, women and children in Noah's flood, and threatened (or prophesied) that the atrocities in Deuteronomy would occur, unless the 'turned to him in worship' - so I think that the relationship of sycophant is applicable.

    Like I wrote blessing someone because they worship you isn't mercy, it's reciprocity.


    You of course have ever right to your opinion. I nor any one else can stop you from your opinion and you can base that on incomplete or wrong information if you like.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #11 - November 10, 2011, 08:21 AM

    I'm having some difficulty understanding why you are blaming God (or thinking it is God fault that those people chose to do wrong things i.e. rape, murder...) when they used their own freedom of choice to do those things.

    Because if God exists, man does not create his own nature. Whatever impulses a rapist acts upon were seeded within them by God. Whatever cognitive capacity a rapist has that equips them to make choices was fashioned by God. Whatever reservoir of self-control a rapist has was determined by God.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #12 - November 10, 2011, 08:26 AM

    God drowned men, women and children in Noah's flood..........

    No he didn't. grin12

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #13 - November 10, 2011, 04:21 PM

    I'm having some difficulty understanding why you are blaming God (or thinking it is God fault that those people chose to do wrong things i.e. rape, murder...) when they used their own freedom of choice to do those things.

    People have free choice with that comes resposibility for what you do.

    Because if God exists, man does not create his own nature. Whatever impulses a rapist acts upon were seeded within them by God. Whatever cognitive capacity a rapist has that equips them to make choices was fashioned by God. Whatever reservoir of self-control a rapist has was determined by God.

    Sigh. Ishina is correct here. Note that this would not be the case if god was simply a creator. But being THE ultimate creator with omniscience and omnipotence, then what Ishina has said is correct.

    Put it this way. god has the power to do ANYTHING. But god wants to give us free will. Now let us assume god exists as Lynna believes it, and has given us free will. I have free will, yet I cannot fly! Is this a curtailment or prevention of my free will? No, it is just a part of who we are. Why then, if god is all–powerful and all–knowing, could god have given us free will but NO ability to harm others? Since the whole point about god is whether we believe in it, or we reject it, then the ability to harm others adds nothing to our free will, nor does it add anything to our ability to worship or reject god.

    So the ultimate, all–knowing, all–powerful creator could have given us free will but not given us the ability to harm anyone else, in the same we as we do not have the ability to fly. And if we tried to harm others it would only affect us.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #14 - November 10, 2011, 08:25 PM

    What kind of free will is it when in front of u, you have an Orange and an Apple and I tell you, you have the free will to chose which one you want, which means I give u the right to chose the Apple or the Orange BUT if u chose the Apple I will put a bullet in the back of your head and I am holding the gun on ur head.

    Now u think u have free will but u don't cuz u are forced to chose the Orange.

    Plus it is not ur fault that you are given free will, you are given free will and u exercise it, now people would use free will for good and bad some people unintentionally would hurt others when making the wrong choice, at least 90% of the population either has no interest in reading the bible or dealing with this types of philosophies because they are too busy suffering the consequenced of the fall from the Garden of Eden = Life.

  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #15 - November 10, 2011, 09:13 PM

    No, I have never said that God's knowledge included what choices each individual would make. I have been very clear that humans have freedom of choice.


    You should have been clearer in your response.

    To state that God's knowledge is endless is to imply omniscience. You're now stating that God doesn't have full knowledge of our choices so therefore God cannot have endless knowledge - according to you God's knowledge is limited.

    Quote
    Please consider the difference in the meanings of the words could and would. These two words are not interchangeable.[/i]


    So before God created the universe he knew that it was highly probable that incredible calamities would befall large numbers of sentient beings during their life time, and knew that it was highly probable that large numbers would turn away from worshipping him and not taste 'eternal life' as a result.

    God knew that it was highly probable that thousands of children would die every month due to starvation and painful diseases, and yet chose to callously create the universe to 'test' human beings? Or for his glory?

    Quite frankly Yahweh resembles a megalomanic - not a kind, and compassionate creator. The kind and compassionate thing to do would have been to create a universe where a benign set of circumstances for human beings was highly probable.  

    Quote
    Now, if you as an individual with free will don't want to believe what the Bible says that of course is your choice.
    However, if you want to blame the God of the Bible for the problem that exist because of mankinds bad chooses you are misinformed.


    God also chose to create a universe that is largely inhabitable and perilous - despite knowing that it was highly probable.

    Also he chose to create life on earth, where large numbers of entire species become extinct, and is inhabitable in many areas for large numbers of human beings without technological advancement. And he decided to create a set of circumstances where large numbers of human beings would die from natural disasters - despite also knowing that this was probable.

    The perilous circumstances of existing in the universe and on the planet earth aren't a result of human free-will, they are a result solely of God choose to creates the universe in such a manner (according to your theology).

    Unless you believe that God lacked the fore-sight to tell the probable outcome of creating the universe in such a manner?

    Quote
    Or, perhaps you know enough about the Bible to find the scriptures that says that God is  responsible for every wrong choice of each individual humans.[/i]


    I don't play the 'your interpretation is wrong' game usually. The reason is because it's quite frankly absurd to think that God is such a poor communicator in the first place, and would create a book where radically different interpretations are possible, let alone probable.

    Christians like yourself want me to believe that God is knowledgeable and powerful enough to create the universe, yet is so incompetent at communicating with humanity that there have been thousands of denominations of chrisitanity throughout history, all believing that they are correct.

    Not only that, he created a book, that was indistinguishable from other creationist and religious myths once rational and scientific enquiry was applied to it.

    A book that requires gullibility aka faith (belief in the absence of evidence) in order to believe that the story of Adam and Eve, Noah's flood, etc, are literally true. And requires doublethink to believe that the same God who drowns practically every man, women and child on the planet for displeasing him - and advocates genocide - is benevolent, and deserves worship.

    I personally find it arrogant when people claim that they are part of a small minority of human beings who truly understand the message to humanity from the creator of the universe. Not only a small minority in humanity, but a small minority within the membership of their own religion.

    Quote
    And as for your second suggestion not creating the universe. I suppose it's to late for that now, anyhow I don't find any reason to discuss it.


    Given the history of human relations, the inhabitable nature of the majority of the universe for humanity, and the perilous circumstances on the earth for it's inhabitants: God was either callous, incredibly ignorant of the consequences of his actions, or so incompetent he isn't worthy of worship.
     
    But the main point is that to call such a God - who was aware of the probable outcome of bringing the universe into existence - can't rationally be called omnibenevolent, or even the most benevolent.

    At the very least he isn't worthy of worship - I think he deserves pity or rancour.

    Quote
    I don't know how many diffferent way you're going to  try this but it still wont change the fact that human's (and angels) have free will. That means God did not (doesn't) predetermine what we are going to do.


    I didn't claim that your God predetermined things, I claimed that he had fore-knowledge of the outcome of creating the universe. But according to you God was extremely short-sighted, or outright ignorant of the likely outcome.

    Quote
    You of course have ever right to your opinion. I nor any one else can stop you from your opinion and you can base that on incomplete or wrong information if you like.


    I've based my opinion on what you've wrote; God has limited knowledge, and chose to create the universe with the fore-knowledge that sentient beings would likely suffer tragic and horrific fates.

    Christopher Hitchens has given the most damning speech regarding Jehovah/a personal God's nature that I've ever heard. He paints a brilliant picture of how even if Jehovah/a personal God exists, he isn't worthy of worship...

    (Like the articles you presented, this video articulates my points far better than I can)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nIRJVmZ4K8
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #16 - November 10, 2011, 11:37 PM

    What kind of free will is it when in front of u, you have an Orange and an Apple and I tell you, you have the free will to chose which one you want, which means I give u the right to chose the Apple or the Orange BUT if u chose the Apple I will put a bullet in the back of your head and I am holding the gun on ur head.

    Now u think u have free will but u don't cuz u are forced to chose the Orange.

    Plus it is not ur fault that you are given free will, you are given free will and u exercise it, now people would use free will for good and bad some people unintentionally would hurt others when making the wrong choice, at least 90% of the population either has no interest in reading the bible or dealing with this types of philosophies because they are too busy suffering the consequenced of the fall from the Garden of Eden = Life.


    You set up a bad situation. Even the situation that primarily set off the discussed in this thread the blessing and the malediction of the Israelites on entteing the promised land. The people could have made the choice to go back to Egypt or any place else on the face of the earth. Then they would have not been involved in the Law Covenant at all. There are all ways more then two choices. The main point is there is all ways choices and it is with in the power of each individual to what they do.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #17 - November 10, 2011, 11:43 PM

    You really don't get it, do you?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #18 - November 10, 2011, 11:53 PM

    You really don't get it, do you?


    Perhaps not. Why don' you tell me.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #19 - November 11, 2011, 12:41 AM

    You set up a bad situation. Even the situation that primarily set off the discussed in this thread the blessing and the malediction of the Israelites on entteing the promised land. The people could have made the choice to go back to Egypt or any place else on the face of the earth. Then they would have not been involved in the Law Covenant at all. There are all ways more then two choices. The main point is there is all ways choices and it is with in the power of each individual to what they do.


    Oh yeah the Blessing.

    Do you really take those stories as literally true or you take them as symbolic cuz when u talk to religious people u never know when will they pull out the IT IS SYMBOLIC card.

    What about Adam and Eve in Garden of Eden, my example is a perfect one that implies to Adam and Eve in Paradise.

    I mean when you know what u have created and you know that when given free will to a human being ( choice ) and logic u know he will try all the options, I mean you know what u created and you know that Adam will go and try the apple and u still punish them.

    It is like I know what my 4 years old kid is gonna do when I tell him to behave and put an ice cream on the refrigerator and tell him, here is the ice cream, you can eat it if u want but don't eat it cuz otherwise I will whoop ur ass and I know he will eat it and I leave the room and come back and I see his dirty mouth with ice cream and I start beating him senseless.

    I mean what is the point when u know what is gonna happen??? or even when u have planned to do so.

    I mean u gave me free will and u limit me or u give me free will then I make the choice and then u punish me for acting like that, well I just did what u told me to do, to chose and I chose to eat the ice cream, now are u gonna be mad at me all of your life for that ?

    You really can't say God didn't know what will Adam and Eve do especially considering that Adam and Eve were amateurs to the game of life since they were the first ones to live.

    Let me get this straight, why would Israelites chose to go back to Egypt and become slaves again Huh??

    And where does it say that they have the option to chose another land other than Israel?? and that if they chose let's say China the  Law Covenant wouldn't imply to them?

  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #20 - November 11, 2011, 06:45 AM


    IT IS SYMBOLIC card.

    I'm not very good at the symbolic card. Although there are symbolic things in the Bible.

    What about Adam and Eve in Garden of Eden, my example is a perfect one that implies to Adam and Eve in Paradise.

    I mean when you know what u have created and you know that when given free will to a human being ( choice ) and logic u know he will try all the options, I mean you know what u created and you know that Adam will go and try the apple and u still punish them.

    It is like I know what my 4 years old kid is gonna do when I tell him to behave and put an ice cream on the refrigerator and tell him, here is the ice cream, you can eat it if u want but don't eat it cuz otherwise I will whoop ur ass and I know he will eat it and I leave the room and come back and I see his dirty mouth with ice cream and I start beating him senseless.

    I mean what is the point when u know what is gonna happen??? or even when u have planned to do so.

    I mean u gave me free will and u limit me or u give me free will then I make the choice and then u punish me for acting like that, well I just did what u told me to do, to chose and I chose to eat the ice cream, now are u gonna be mad at me all of your life for that ?

    You really can't say God didn't know what will Adam and Eve do especially considering that Adam and Eve were amateurs to the game of life since they were the first ones to live.


    I still don't think so. Which is not a discussion on the matter. I have however read some of your other post that have made me interested in your point of view on the matter.

    Just something about me, I was raised never believing in a hell of burning torment and torture. I can actually go to the Bible and use scriptures to show that when people die they are just humm... nothing except in God's memory until his resurrections them on the last day and then still no hellfire. Oh maybe a year or more ago I had a discussion with Mount a Bison that seemed like a lot of nothing just talk. But I really for the First time in my life look at what some poeple have been taught about hellfire. I was shocked. I spent time all by myself crying and thinking if some one had told those lies I would also be running from religion so fast and never looking back. So you may be thinking so what, the point being I'm interested in exchange of information more thenjust argueing.  So if you've got ideas and I've got time I will usually have the conversation.

    Right now the main thing, if nothing else, in my conversation with Strangestdude I'm ininterested in omniscient. I'm very interested in learning about that idea. For me, I do better in a one to one conversation that way I'm focused. You have some inteseting ideas just right now I don't think I cound do them justice.


    Let me get this straight, why would Israelites chose to go back to Egypt and become slaves again Huh??


    Read the account in the Bible apparently they thought they could. At least a lot of them kept whining to. yes

    And where does it say that they have the option to chose another land other than Israel?? and that if they chose let's say China the  Law Covenant wouldn't imply to them?


    Good questions. However not for the most part on the topic of omniscient or foreknowledge or God's knowledge. So if you please perhaps another time.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #21 - November 11, 2011, 12:22 PM

     
    I'm not very good at the symbolic card. Although there are symbolic things in the Bible.


    And what is the rule or the border where we can say this is Symbolic and this is Literal Huh?

    Plus why would God give humanity such a vague and highly symbolic Book to the 2nd, 3rd or whatever Century people who let's face it were pretty much illiterate and not educated and science and technology was nowhere near the level it is today??

    What is the point preaching to a guy with the IQ of 80 stuff he can't even understand and probably will be taking them as literal.

    Does god not want everyone saved Huh?? does got only wants the ones with the IQ of 110+ Saved Huh?

     
    Just something about me, I was raised never believing in a hell of burning torment and torture. I can actually go to the Bible and use scriptures to show that when people die they are just humm... nothing except in God's memory until his resurrections them on the last day and then still no hellfire.


    And I can actually go to the bible and find u passages and verses where it says that people will be burning in hell fire for Eternity.

     
    But I really for the First time in my life look at what some poeple have been taught about hellfire. .I was shocked. I spent time all by myself crying and thinking if some one had told those lies I would also be running from religion so fast and never looking back.


    Oh please give me a break, many people, I don't know if it is exaggerated if I say most people believe in after life and God because they are scared of Eternal Torture and if they new there is no hell fire and hell they would never be in religion in the first place.

    Plus what is the point making people believe in you with Hell and threats, like Stalin and Hitler.

    People should believe in you because of your good Qualities and follow u because of your good qualities not fear u, cuz in the end fear is fear and it is nor respect.

     
    So you may be thinking so what, the point being I'm interested in exchange of information more thenjust argueing.  So if you've got ideas and I've got time I will usually have the conversation.


    That is why we are here, to exchange ideas and talk about it.

     
    Right now the main thing, if nothing else, in my conversation with Strangestdude I'm ininterested in omniscient. I'm very interested in learning about that idea. For me, I do better in a one to one conversation that way I'm focused.


    That is what we talking, Omniscience and that is my point between the lines.

    As I told u, why create something when u know what kind of result u will get and then blame them for that result???

    U can't say God didn't know our choices cuz I can copy past u verses from the Quran where it says he knows our choices and everything.

    The Bible repeatedly tells us that God knows everything. His knowledge, in fact, is “perfect [Job 37:16] and is “beyond measure” [Psa. 147:5]. He sees every move we make, He knows the innermost thoughts of our hearts and He even knows what we are going to say before we say it [1 Sam. 16:7; 1 Chron. 28:9; Psa. 139:1-6; Jer. 17:10; Heb. 4:12-13]. Unlike the false gods of our time, the Lord knows everything: Even what’s going to happen in the future [Isa. 41:21-24; 42:9; 44:7]. Jesus, interestingly enough, also tells us that our heavenly Father numbers the very hairs on our head. By the way, it’s interesting to note that God actually revealed to Isaiah the name of Cyrus even before he was actually born — in fact, one century before he was born. Cyrus, of course, was the king who returned the Jews to their homeland after the Babylonian exile [Isa. 44:28-45:1].

    You know as Matthew 11 points out, God even knows what people would have done if their circumstances had been different [Matt. 11:21]. Well despite the evidence, some people today still deny that the Bible teaches that God is omniscient or all-knowing. As evidence they point out silly little things like in Genesis where God had to look for Adam in the Garden of Eden, or later on in the book of Genesis [Gen. 3:9-13] they point out that God had to go down to Sodom and Gomorrah to find out how bad their sin actually was [Gen. 18:20-21]. Well, it should go without saying that these passages don’t indicate, by any stretch of the imagination, that God doesn’t know everything. In fact, they’re not even very difficult to understand. You see, as a parent I often ask my kids where they are or what they’ve done, even when I already know, because I want them to face up to what they did wrong. God does the very same thing with us.

    There is nothing to know about God being Omniscent.

    God is telling u in the Bible and Quran that he is Omniscent.

    U can go on arguing how he didn't manage this and that and micro Management but we all know that is bull.

    And you are not learning about an Idea, it is not an Idea, it is what it is, like gravity like Light, it is what it is, the bible which u base ur morals tells u that.

    U know what I don't like about Religious people, I don't like when they go around and try to give 100 Meanings to the bible or some stuff in the bible.

    Bible and other Holy Books are not meant to be that hard to get in the first place, because we know the masses are dumb and they need to understand it, what is the point if u go to school and in the first day they teach u Trigonometry while they trying to teach u how to add and subtract in the same time.

    And God indeed is OMNISCENT, whoever claims differently is a religious douche that deep down inside he doesn't believe the bible either he just wants to believe it not as it is there but as he wants it to be.

    Plus God is Omniscent, he is the ALL KNOWING.

    now the question is:

    According to Gen 3, where the serpent tricked Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit, WHY DID GOD PUT THAT TREE THERE WHEN HE KNEW THAT IF IT IS EATEN, IT WILL CAUSE HAVOC TO THE BEATIFUL WORLD HE CREATED.

    Secondly in Gen 6 vs 7- GOD said " i will wipe out these paople i have created, and also the animals and the birds, because i am sorry that i made any of them. The Questions now is, WHY DID HE MAKE THAT KIND OF STATEMENT, IS IT THAT HE NEVER KNEW THAT HUMANS WERE GOING TO BE THAT BAD? WHY THE REGRET

    Lastly, In 1 thess 4 vs 17- Then we which are living at that time will be gathered up along with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, And so shall we ever be with the Lord,  THE QUESTION- Was It God's Intention, that we should be with him in heaven, if yes then why creating the earth?


    So it is a common fact and well known that God is OMNISCENT, now he made something he knew the result of and he will blame them for that result.

    I mean u know what u doing, you do it and then u blame the ones u do for the outcome when u knew what the outcome is gonna be.

    Plus, in verses where it says, everyone will be accountable for his own actions and give explanations.

    What explanation doesn't God accept??

    God is Almighty Beyond every understanding, he has created everything and this would include Atoms, Electrons inside and everything which shows ENOUGH how powerful God is and still he will deal with something utterly lame like Why did u steal???.

    I think everyone that stole has an Explanation.

    Someone needed to steal to survive, someone stole to be rich.

    Someone killed because he had some kind of Chemical Imbalance in his head.

    Plus what is the point Testing people, if u can call it like that ?

    I mean u have the power to not let this happen and even if u let this happen u have the power to fix it or when people come to you up there u have the power to tell them: Hey dude look this is it, this is what it is, this is the truth u were wrong and save them or whatever instead of Eternal Torture for a Finite Crime.

    And why the ALL KNOWING has to judge people according to their beliefs and if u say he doesn't cuz he needs u to logically find god then what happens to those that can't understand how can God exist, like Low IQ, not able to comprehend, I mean the guy doesn't get it screw him he is an Ignorant he needs help he needs to understand u can't judge someone when he does something he doesn't understand, can u ??

    And even if he does he did it cuz somehow he wanted to and he could do it cuz he was given the free will.


      
    Good questions. However not for the most part on the topic of omniscient or foreknowledge or God's knowledge. So if you please perhaps another time.


    yes it is not part of it but I would also like to say that you should Keep in mind that Omniscence and Foreknowledge are related closely to Predetermination.

    and we all know how Predetermination works with free will, it doesn't.

    ANYWAYS, I REST MY CASE HERE, LET U DISCUSS WHAT U BEEN DISCUSSING HERE AND CUT THE OFFTOPIC, WE WILL DISCUSS THIS IN ANOTHER THREAD OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #22 - November 20, 2011, 09:43 PM


    To Strangestdude,
    ... are you really impressed by this Hitchens in the video that you posted?

    I have watched it several times, taken notes and jotted down some point that I have some thoughts about.

    If you are. Well, okay. Such is how things are. I just find it difficult to take seriously people that make wide sweeping statements about other whole classes of people. For example: "If you are a monotheist you must believe...". Oh, Humm... He get's to say that, does he? He has the vast and total knowledge and wisdom that he is able to know the only one way that all monotheists must believe. Perhaps, Hitchens is omniscient? Or he thinks himself to be? I have trouble with any one who finds those of the alternate or oppposing to be stupid or inferrior. Not to say you obviously feel your point of view is the best way of living or you wouldn't make the effort to live by that standard, and I feel the same about mine. But to assume that make one of us less then the other is faulty thinking.

    He refers to all religious thoughts as absurd and all nonreligious thoughts as eloquent. Interesting.

    He makes claims about the Bible that are not so without supporting information.

    I find so many things to be at issue. Also this video is umm... different then the ones posted as your signature. Perhaps I am missing what you mean as the point of this video. If you would please clarify what point is centeral to this topic or to the point you are making reference.

     

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #23 - November 20, 2011, 10:21 PM

    To Lynna,

    A quote from the video:

    00:40 - "You may wish, to be a deist as my heroes Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Payne were, and you may not wish to abandon the idea."

    He made a distinction between people who believe in a deity early on.

    However, as he then says that to go from that to make the assertions that this deity cares about you, listens to your prayers, tells you which part of your genitals to cut off etc. This is a second step from the above, and there is no justification for taking this step.

    Regarding the sweeping generalization, look where he is, inside a Church, and he's debating with his brother Peter Hitchens a Christian, he's clearly talking about Abrahamic monotheism.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #24 - November 20, 2011, 10:39 PM

    Quote
    Just something about me, I was raised never believing in a hell of burning torment and torture.


    Matthew 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Mark 9:48 where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched.

    Revelation 14:10 that person will also drink of the wine of God’s anger that has been mixed undiluted in the cup of his wrath, and he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb.

    Revelation 14:11 And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever

    Daniel 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence. 3 But the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavenly expanse. And those bringing many to righteousness will be like the stars forever and ever.

    Matthew 25:46 And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

    John 3:16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him.

    Revelation 20 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire. 21:8 But to the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur.

    Quote
    But I really for the First time in my life look at what some poeple have been taught about hellfire. I was shocked. I spent time all by myself crying and thinking if some one had told those lies truths I would also be running from religion so fast and never looking back.


    The tragedy of all this: You are better than the God you worship.


    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #25 - November 22, 2011, 04:40 PM

    Also this video is umm... different then the ones posted as your signature. Perhaps I am missing what you mean as the point of this video.


    Sometimes ridicule is effective at getting a point across.

    The main point is that the personality of God is one of a tyrant.

    He is responsible for the perilous natural evens that befall sentient beings, and created human beings knowing the likely hood that the majority would suffer incredibly traumatic circumstances through no fault of their own.

    God knew that it was likely large numbers of children would be abused, raped, killed or starve to death.

    God drowned men, women and children. And ordered a father to murder his own son, so the father could prove his love for him (which he benevolently stopped at the last minute).

    God wants people to be willfully gullible and believe improbable garbage for no good reason, and spend their life being sycophants to him.

    The character of God isn't consistent with a benevolent being - at best he's indifferent, at worst he's a tyrant.

    God is responsible for tragic and evil circumstances, because he is the creator of those circumstances - and he created them with foresight.

    He created the universe knowing the probable circumstances that would entail (and he had such foresight that he knew that approx 13 billion of years after the universe began, homosapiens would emerge). He also knew human nature, and knew of the potential evil that mankind was capable of towards one another, and yet still choose to create us with indifference to our potential suffering.

    And the path to blissful eternal life - to make up for the incredibly perilous circumstance of human existence - is a dubiously compiled message that is indistinguishable from other creationist myths. And will only be truly understood by a handful of humanity - Jehovah's witnesses. 

    God is not great.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0EEKfTnfvA
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #26 - November 22, 2011, 04:50 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FcUzVKmLlk
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #27 - November 26, 2011, 10:46 PM



    I don't know where they found that guy. In line with being kind perhaps he was nervous in front of the camera and forgot all he knew.

    Adam and Eve's instructions from God was to multiple and fill the earth with people they would hardly have done this if they had only Caine and Able. Would they have? Okay, yeh they didn't do so well with the, "don't eat from the tree in the center of the garden...", but populate the earth instructions, were likely more funnnn.   yes

    So... Let see what else the Bible says...

    Oh, here one is:

    Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived on for a hundred and thirty years. Then he became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and called his name Seth. 4 And the days of Adam after his fathering Seth came to be eight hundred years. Meanwhile he became father to sons and daughters. 5 So all the days of Adam that he lived amounted to nine hundred and thirty years and he died.

    So here is a verse that mentions the birth of son Seth by name and other sons and daughters who are left unnamed.

    That other daughters were born before Seth and not mentioned is very possible as some times the birth of daughters was not recorded directedly. However would be covered in this instructions.

    Genesis 1: 28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”

    And yes it was very likely that Caines wife was his sister.

    However, if you want to think of the technical details of how it would work in the case of evolutions it is way worse.




    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #28 - November 26, 2011, 10:57 PM

    Do you mean you believe Adam lived for 930 years?

    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: Yo Lynna!
     Reply #29 - November 26, 2011, 11:18 PM

    And yes it was very likely that Caines wife was his sister.


    LOL, honestly, LOL all freakin day freaking long.

    If I could see you Lynna I'd point at you whilst I laughed.

    Utterly amazing!



    "Happy happy, joy joy!" Stimpson J Cat.
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