Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...

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Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
OP - July 14, 2012, 08:54 AM

This is what blind religious beliefs and stupid religious nuts leads you and the society to..

Quote
SAHIWAL, July 13: A 12-year-old girl was allegedly tortured to death by a self-acclaimed spiritual healer at Chichawatni’s 114/12-L village early on Friday.

Worse still, the girl’s parents insisted that she had fallen a victim to evil spirits and their ‘pir’ had nothing to do with it.

Sources at a Chichawatni hospital confirmed severe marks of torture and hot iron rod burns at face, arms and feet. Also, the girl was treated with red chilies smoke.

Salma Bibi, daughter of labourer Manzoor Ahmed, was mentally challenged and her parents believed she was under the influence of evil spirits. Manzoor’s brother-in-law advised him to call a spiritual healer, Pir Shabbir,

Shabbir came to their house on Thursday night and locked the girl in a room, where he started his ‘amal’. He kept beating the girl with an iron rod the whole night and also burnt her limbs, telling her parents all along to stay calm because the “evil spirits were too powerful to be ward off quickly.” He even claimed that these were the cries of evil spirits and not the girl.

The girl died by the morning and Shabbir asked her parents to bury her in a graveyard without ado. On a tip-off, the Kassowal police led by SI Muhammad Jawad reached the
graveyard around 8am on Friday and sent the body to Tehsil Headquarters Hospital for autopsy.

The postmortem report stated “broken neck” led to the girl’s death. The police claimed the thug was immediately absolved of the crime as the girl’s father said “it is a sin to blame the pir”.

The Kassowal police registered a case (114/12) against Shabbir and a team set about tracking him down.

peer Shabirs and Spiritual fucking shit.. whole country and continents needs Psychiatric help..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #1 - July 14, 2012, 10:23 AM

They will say as a kafir you need help because you don't believe the 'truth'!

The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #2 - July 14, 2012, 12:51 PM

Why are you blaming a whole country and continent?
There is no evidence the whole country and continent was involved in this crime is there?
It is observable at least some were not be cause the crime was reported and investigated. Also charges are being pressed against the presumed murderer. I would imagen some kind of charges will or should be brought against the parent and any who heard the girl screaming and didn't intervene.

Is your wide swiping judgemental statement against a whole continent any less blind?

If at first you succeed...try something harder.

Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #3 - July 14, 2012, 03:42 PM

Quote from: Lynna on July 14, 2012, 12:51 PM
Why are you blaming a whole country and continent?
...........
Is your wide swiping judgemental statement against a whole continent any less blind?

Nope Lynna ..No..

What I said was in fact TOTAL BLIND., But I will say again and again until such acts disappear from the face of planet.. and I am going to blame every one specially ruling class, police.. educated folks .. dogs.. cats.. pets and everything..

every one must fight such evil rituals..

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #4 - July 14, 2012, 06:34 PM

Yeezevee if you would please explain more,

Sometimes your line of reasoning doesn't seem as clear to other as you may assume it it is. Likewise I am often not arguing the side of a point that some people assume I am,

Is your complaint here against religion in general or the actions of uneducated or uninformed actions?

You are an internet "wizard" so I'm sure you could find it faster then me. I believe it was in Romania or one of the other states of the USSR when it was dissolved this came to light. At a nursing home they had bond peoples legs apart and given them contractures in this position. The thought was so it would be easier to clean their incontinent bowels. Likely a very inhumane way to treat the problem. The people who did this did it at the direction of the Atheistic Governments standard of care. Should I blame Atheism or misinformation? The answer seems obvious to me, but I would really like to know your thought on the matter.

Blame should go where blame belongs.

If at first you succeed...try something harder.

Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #5 - July 14, 2012, 07:02 PM

Quote from: Lynna on July 14, 2012, 06:34 PM
Yeezevee if you would please explain more,

Sometimes your line of reasoning doesn't seem as clear to other as you may assume it it is. Likewise I am often not arguing the side of a point that some people assume I am,

Is your complaint here against religion in general or the actions of uneducated or uninformed actions?

that is true and i agree with you Lynna.. And I accept that at times I do go blind on certain issues..

Quote
...... Romania ......USSR .........
..... Atheistic Governments.........

Blame should go where blame belongs.

Yes Blame should go where it belongs.. but I am not certain.. Romania.. USSR.. China..pol pot.. Mao.. Stalin are equivalent to Atheist or Atheism..
And I am of the opinion that Atheist or Atheism is nothing to do with Government or state sponsored political activism in the name of god or godlessness

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #6 - July 14, 2012, 07:32 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 14, 2012, 07:02 PM
that is true and i agree with you Lynna.. And I accept that at times I do go blind on certain issues..
Yes Blame should go where it belongs.. but I am not certain.. Romania.. USSR.. China..pol pot.. Mao.. Stalin are equivalent to Atheist or Atheism..
And I am of the opinion that Atheist or Atheism is nothing to do with Government or state sponsored political activism in the name of god or godlessness

I am sure I am likely as equally of the opinion the major of the crap done in the name of God from the first century C.E. onward has not a thing to do with the God that created all things but there are still people out there who would like to throw blame all over the place.

People who are Atheist do wrong and bad and horrific things. Would a person be correct or incorrect in assuming it was their belief about there being no God that caused them to do these things?

I don't know how to be any more blunt.

You didn't answer that question.

If at first you succeed...try something harder.

Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #7 - July 14, 2012, 09:45 PM

Atheists don't normally commit atrocities and then cite atheism as their inspiration. However countless atrocities are committed by religious people who cite their religion as inspiration.

This year alone we've had frequent killings done in the name of religion.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #8 - July 14, 2012, 10:49 PM

You are circumventing the point of a very prejudicial point of view here.

I am talking about prejudicial thinking.

You are not will informed if you are unaware of the number of cases of people that have imprisoned, tortured, and put to death in under communism. The policy being stated or implied that "God is the opium of the masses." I'm not on a devise where I can cut and paste you article but I shall in time that my laptop to town and do that.

To make wide sweeping prejudicial judgements about entire continents of people is supposedly what so many here didn't like about religions. At least that is what I hear here time and time again. But to point out that it is happening the other way around there is no open dialogue.?

Are you truly willing to say you can make a logical defence for Yeezevee statement that everyone on the continent is responsible for what happened to that girl?

If you are make your defence but don't change the subject of prejudicial reasoning .

(If later you want to talk about atrocities done in the name of God maybe later we can talk about the real Apostasy)

If at first you succeed...try something harder.

Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #9 - July 15, 2012, 07:59 AM

Quote from: Lynna on July 14, 2012, 07:32 PM
.....
I don't know how to be any more blunt.
..............

well ... Lynna ..Yap.. you are quite blunt. I do get the heat of your post. Fortunately or unfortunately, I am one of those guys who pours liquid nitrogen on anything that is hot.

Quote from: Lynna on July 14, 2012, 07:32 PM
.....
You didn't answer that question.

I didn't??... Your are riot, yes I didn't.

Well the way you are probing me and the way you are looking at me with those sun glasses.. you look and sound like James bond 007. Soooo.... I got to be careful. You see when we write posts in to forums(and a person like me playing chess games in many forums), we can not spell/express everything in one post.

A scandalous scoundrel .. The peer.. the healing hero with Mosque connections takes a child from a poor/uneducated parents and kills him/her. Now whom do I blame?? I don't know. I blame fucking everything around me.. Pardon me for my bad language..

The post I wrote is very little to do with Atheism/communism/democracy/theocracy and the actions of individual or a group, but more to do with blind unquestionable religious beliefs + my uncontrollable rage. So I take some time to cool down Lynna.

Quote from: Lynna to strangestdude on July 14, 2012, 10:49 PM
You are circumventing the point of a very prejudicial point of view here.

I am talking about prejudicial thinking.

Lynna.... strangestdude can neither answer nor defend the very prejudicial point of view., or behavior of yeezevee. It is for me to answer or defend on what i say.

Quote
To make wide sweeping prejudicial judgements about entire continents of people is supposedly what so many here didn't like about religions.

Indeed that is what I do quite often. Some time I do that not just for one continent but to all continent of this earth. I am allergic to religions that are there and religiosity that is there in society
Quote
At least that is what I hear here time and time again. But to point out that it is happening the other way around there is no open dialogue.?

That is true I do write in that fashion quite often. As far as dialogue is concerned., I am willing to have dialogue and learn, but I am not sure about open dialogue

Quote
Are you truly willing to say you can make a logical defence for Yeezevee statement that everyone on the continent is responsible for what happened to that girl?

No... strangestdude can not do that., There is no logical defense for yeezevee's illogical arguments/outbursts. He is as good as any religious nut when it come to religious rubbish.

Quote
If you are make your defence but don't change the subject of prejudicial reasoning .

Yap... I agree with you., we should not change the subject. But I hope you realize., It is NOT JUST ONE GIRL and one case .. this superstitious filth is there across across the globe and I can show those things from Indonesia to Iran .. Afghanistan to America.. Australia to Argentina., Every where religions and those who lead the religions play a big role irrespective of their religious backgrounds. They play a big role in this superstitious rubbish laced with religion/scriptures and they do it freely in the name of religion with few questioning them.

Hmm.. I don't know why I am writing all this? And I wonder if we had free thinking since that Greek geek Aristotle, what would have been the face of human race in 21st century??

And I am maaaaaad., These two guys are confusing the hell out of youtube watchers in that tube. So many different subjects in one go..

with best regards
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #10 - July 15, 2012, 11:51 AM

Quote from: Lynna on July 14, 2012, 10:49 PM
You are not will informed if you are unaware of the number of cases of people that have imprisoned, tortured, and put to death in under communism. The policy being stated or implied that "God is the opium of the masses." I'm not on a devise where I can cut and paste you article but I shall in time that my laptop to town and do that.

I'm aware of communist suppression of religion.

However if we take into account the history of human civilization, and not just the 20th century then it's clear that religious inspiration has consistently been cited as motivation for killings throughout history.

Quote
Are you truly willing to say you can make a logical defence for Yeezevee statement that everyone on the continent is responsible for what happened to that girl?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #11 - July 15, 2012, 01:38 PM

Lynna shoots with a AK 47 !

The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
Thomas Paine

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #12 - July 15, 2012, 02:21 PM

@Yeezevee

LOL. I should change my avatar. I posted that picture as a joke. I work at a prison all during Academy I heard time and again "Miss Lynna loss that smile" "You don't have a corrections personality" and other such chiding remarks. But I got good grades and I didn't back down so they couldn't break me.

Anyhow to my actual point.

Thank you for your reply.

Yes what happened to the the girl in the first account that started this conversation was horrible and should never happen to anyone. Undoubtedly it makes the reasoning mind angery along with a whole lot of other emotions. Those emotions of yours all have there place just like the blame. Thing is putting them in the right place. Yes me, you every one else gets it wrong from time to time.

You got the point already no need to rehash, the continent or the world is not guilty for what happened. There are in that continent many people of many different backgrounds who put effort into preventing those kind of events. However in the end the ones who committed the crime and the ones in the immediate area who could have prevented it are guilty.

Perhaps I can compartmentalization to much. If so only to survive my world on the other side of the fence. What if I walked in with the anger every day? I would not live. It would be to overwhelming to see to much human devastation all the time. I cannot look at what they did I have to see where they are at to make a life lesson that might make one tiny change in their life. Oh yes some of them are even very will informed and educated Atheist but that's alright doesn't even matter because anyone can end up in prison for one stupid misjudgement. But find the good in where some one is at. Go from there don't burn bridges. Works a little different with people you just meet in life because they have freedom of movement but still is better to find their good and use it.

There is is a different conversation if you want to convert some one to Atheism.

If at first you succeed...try something harder.

Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #13 - July 15, 2012, 02:26 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on July 15, 2012, 11:51 AM
I'm aware of communist suppression of religion.
However if we take into account the history of human civilization, and not just the 20th century then it's clear that religious inspiration has consistently been cited as motivation for killings throughout history.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing.

I don't see any evidence for your case Strangestdude. Why don't you read Yeezevee's reply and present your case.

If at first you succeed...try something harder.

Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #14 - July 15, 2012, 03:48 PM

Quote from: Lynna on July 15, 2012, 02:21 PM
@Yeezevee

LOL. .....

Lynna I wonder whether you are familiar with any language of subcontinent as you seem to be very much interested in the people of Indian subcontinent ?

for e.g. language in this tube

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #15 - July 15, 2012, 04:33 PM

Quote
Salma Bibi, daughter of labourer Manzoor Ahmed, was mentally challenged and her parents believed she was under the influence of evil spirits. Manzoor?s brother-in-law advised him to call a spiritual healer, Pir Shabbir

I'm not sure which side is 'mentally challenged' anymore, very sad .. universe ..
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #16 - July 15, 2012, 06:48 PM

Quote from: Lynna on July 15, 2012, 02:21 PM
There is is a different conversation if you want to convert some one to Atheism.

There is no god but no god, and Carl Sagan is his messenger

I'll leave you and yeezevee to it.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #17 - July 15, 2012, 07:31 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on July 15, 2012, 06:48 PM
There is no god but no god, and Carl Sagan is his messenger

I'll leave you and yeezevee to it.

H37H9.jpg (142.4 KB, 800x600 - viewed 1155 times.)

The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
Thomas Paine

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #18 - July 15, 2012, 10:16 PM

Quote from: paranoid on July 15, 2012, 04:33 PM
I'm not sure which side is 'mentally challenged' anymore, very sad .. universe ..

Yes Paranoid this was one of the very sad factors in this case that the girl was mentally challenged.

We are left to guess what her leave of function was. However it is sad that in many situation people with needs out side the "normal" learning curve don't get the resources they need to function as independently as possible.

I suppose another aspect of helping parents of special needs children is help understand the nature of their child's condition..

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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #19 - July 16, 2012, 03:48 AM

well, it's just a guess, a needs, a resources to conform

god .. religion .. evil spirit .. atrocities ..

in this cases .. just my own guess ..
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #20 - July 16, 2012, 05:35 AM

Quote from: paranoid on July 16, 2012, 03:48 AM
well, it's just a guess, a needs, a resources to conform
god .. religion .. evil spirit .. atrocities ..
in this cases .. just my own guess ..

Not sure but every parent wants their child to be "normal". The abnormal can come from many things. Genetics. Chemical contamination. Oxygen deprivation. Malnutrition. Undetermined reasons. Combinations of reasons. Most if not all the time out of the control of the parents. Anyhow there is no quick fix and no instant cure.

I suppose it need to be higher on more peoples list of important things.

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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #21 - July 16, 2012, 08:58 AM

yes I do understand, acknowledge that people need things to be well, material, knowledge, spiritual, but in this case I tend to look at this particular behavior, atrocity, exorcism, are more towards, vulnerability created, a by products of religion itself, I need to conform these

this is a cult isn't it, the parents belief soo, the belief are reinforced, I don't think their lack of knowledge on religious matter to be blamed in this situation, I think it's more on 'that's how thing get done if you're being possessed', a common thing, and in this cases, the girl died in the process, 'shit happened, move on people' and then exorcism is still an acceptable practices, maybe not legally but spiritually, yes

I don't live there nor do I speak their language, these all are assumption on my part, but then I can't help myself feeling sad on their guillibility or maybe stupidity, I hope this is permissible on me
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #22 - July 16, 2012, 10:20 AM

Quote from: paranoid on July 16, 2012, 08:58 AM
yes I do understand, acknowledge that people need things to be well, material, knowledge, spiritual, but in this case I tend to look at this particular behavior, atrocity, exorcism, are more towards, vulnerability created, a by products of religion itself, I need to conform these

this is a cult, is it nott? the parents belief soo, the belief are reinforced, I don't think their lack of knowledge on religious matter to be blamed in this situation[/b], I think it's more on 'that's how thing get done if you're being possessed', a common thing, and in this cases, the girl died in the process, 'shit happened, move on people' and then exorcism is still an acceptable practices, maybe not legally but spiritually, yes ..

Holy cow.. holly allah doll ..paranoid ... You floored me with those words

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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #23 - July 16, 2012, 11:44 AM

Let us take this step by step.

Girl with learning difficulties. Hmm OK. UN Convention on Rights of People with Disabilities.

Religious leader takes actions against evil spirits that involve torture, grievous bodily harm and murder. Also a hate crime against a disabled girl.

Religious leader is follower of a religion claiming a hot line to the creator of the universe, seal of prophets, book that is literally the word of god in comparison to the second hand christian notion that Jesus is the word of god.

On a general point, what precisely are attitudes like in Islamic majority countries to mental health and disability?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #24 - July 16, 2012, 12:04 PM

^ elaborate please yeez, am paranoid
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Reply #25 - July 16, 2012, 10:30 PM

The account that Yeezevee posred to srart with I do believe was in India however that may not matter so much because similar things happen in many cultures where there is not so much access to education and medical attention. Unfortunately people from diverse believes about god or gods also make poor choices when they are uninformed about better options. Changing the parents belief about their religion would not necessarily need to be for most in giving the child the best advantage.

Medical personal naiads only say, "your child's conditions is caused by (name medical problem). It is help by l(list helpful things and give realistic goals)" Then help the family with resources. Educate the family and community. There is much involved with this but each time the next time is easier.

Educate village midwifes, teachers, village elders, police, religious leaders do this a head of time. Annually at least.

It was mentioned by someone that perhaps after the girls dead as a result of the exorcism that life should just go on oh well to bad. I don't know who would honestly suggest that except the murder or some one with no real mercy and human compassion and empathy. I can only imagen the parents great sadness. Yes, they may have sincerely believed what they were doing was right but they were wrong. What greater loss could they suffer for their misinformation? The thing is a person can only do the best they can do with rhetoric information they have at the time.

In the US if a child is born in a high risk group the country health nurse where the child lives will make visits on the child to help the family find the resourses they need. Are these other countries offering their people any help at all?

It is a long road from not understanding special needs to acceptance. Each case is so individual. We do no one any favors by adding additional prejudices or blame.

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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #26 - July 17, 2012, 12:35 AM

meh, I would say .. this news isn't about prejudice it's a convictions on evil spirit ..
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #27 - July 17, 2012, 11:29 AM
- g
Quote from: paranoid on July 17, 2012, 12:35 AM
meh, I would say .. this news isn't about prejudice it's a convictions on evil spirit ..

Perhaps I see your point.

Are you saying people who don't have another real explanation will blame evil spirits. Yes. Okay. No doubt.

Assuming that is the case then what?
How is that piece of information helpful?
Will it change what I acknowledged needed to be done for the child?
Does the parents over all view of evil spirits need to changed to help the child?

-I started out by say that it would be okay to say to the parents ....oh let me be more clear I had a headache when I was posting earlier. What I meant to say was it is okay to tell the parents, "Your child's condition is caused by (list medical conditions or reasons of educational delays) not by evil spirits." Then educate about prognosis and methods for better out come.

The reason I'm talking about prejudice is not in relationship of the parents to the child or the exorcist in relation to child. However that your own prejudices don't stop us from being able to do the most for the family by mixing issues.
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #28 - July 17, 2012, 01:21 PM

Quote from: Lynna on July 17, 2012, 11:29 AM
.................

....oh let me be more clear I had a headache when I was posting earlier. What I meant to say was it is okay to tell the parents, "

How are you doing Lynna.. I hope you are out of that headache ... but I wonder when you wrote this in the first place
Quote from: Lynna on July 14, 2012, 07:32 PM
I am sure I am likely as equally of the opinion the major of the crap done in the name of God from the first century C.E. onward has not a thing to do with the God that created all things but there are still people out there who would like to throw blame all over the place.
..............

So i read those highlighted words of yours and started writing gibberish., that is my fault.

But Lynna, do you believe that ...."the God created all things "?? ....

.... just curious.

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Blind religious beleifs and stupid religious nuts leads the society to...
Reply #29 - July 17, 2012, 03:34 PM

Quote
The reason I'm talking about prejudice is not in relationship of the parents to the child or the exorcist in relation to child. However that your own prejudices don't stop us from being able to do the most for the family by mixing issues.

elaborate on this, please lynna
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