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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islam: the untold story

 (Read 25143 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 3 45 6 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #90 - September 01, 2012, 01:11 PM

    What makes it worse is that Cadbury's is British last time I checked. And 7up is American? And I'm not sure if 'Hall chewing gum' even exists?

    Hi
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #91 - September 01, 2012, 05:25 PM

    Definitely most amusing! By the way, my pristine copy of In the Shadow of the Sword arrived today, so I am avidly reading it!
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #92 - September 01, 2012, 09:31 PM

    I think Cadbury's is owned by the American company Kraft Foods, but of course Ayaan Hirsi Ali is from the Netherlands, Holland being a bit of it...

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #93 - September 02, 2012, 07:55 AM

    It seems Tom Holland may inadvertently have bought the wrath of some silly muslims, onto the entire Dutch nation... Confused? I certainly was, when a Brother sent me the following text the morning after the documentary was aired:

     "Asalaam Alaykum, Holland has made a programme in which our beloved Prophet (SAW) is made fun of. 60 million Muslims can destroy the economy of Holland by taking less than 5 min to forward this message so that we can answer Allah (SWT) when he asks us what action we tookwhen his beloved (SAW) was made fun of. Denmark is losing; pls dont
    let this mail stop in your inbox. Hope u all know about the Denmark
    newspaper that made fun of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and till now do
    they regret. Let us make them regret for good. The Danish Ambassador,
    Prime Minister and Denmark National channel all are trying to do
    something just to stop the boycott by Muslims since last month through
    which their losses have reached 4 billion Euros. If we continue to
    boycott Denmark products for 7 months more it could reach around 80
    billion Euros loss. Believers do not let this message stop.
    PLEASE forward!
    .Believe in the impossible and remind all to boycott their products (e.g.
    7-up drink, LEGO, Cadbury chocolates, Hall Chewing gums or any product with barcode no. starting with 57).
    REMEMBER, THE PROPHET (PBUH) MIGHT ASK YOU ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, 'WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN THEY MADE FUN OF ME? HOW DID YOU DEFEND ME?' ..."


    You've got to be kidding.

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #94 - September 02, 2012, 08:08 AM

    Quote
    It seems Tom Holland may inadvertently have bought the wrath of some silly muslims, onto the entire Dutch nation... Confused? I certainly was, when a Brother sent me the following text the morning after the documentary was aired:

     "Asalaam Alaykum, Holland has made a programme in which our beloved Prophet (SAW) is made fun of. 60 million Muslims can destroy the economy of Holland by taking less than 5 min to forward this message so that we can answer Allah (SWT) when he asks us what action we tookwhen his beloved (SAW) was made fun of. Denmark is losing; pls dont
    let this mail stop in your inbox. Hope u all know about the Denmark
    newspaper that made fun of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and till now do
    they regret. Let us make them regret for good. The Danish Ambassador,
    Prime Minister and Denmark National channel all are trying to do
    something just to stop the boycott by Muslims since last month through
    which their losses have reached 4 billion Euros. If we continue to
    boycott Denmark products for 7 months more it could reach around 80
    billion Euros loss. Believers do not let this message stop.
    PLEASE forward!
    .Believe in the impossible and remind all to boycott their products (e.g.
    7-up drink, LEGO, Cadbury chocolates, Hall Chewing gums or any product with barcode no. starting with 57).
    REMEMBER, THE PROPHET (PBUH) MIGHT ASK YOU ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, 'WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN THEY MADE FUN OF ME? HOW DID YOU DEFEND ME?' ..."

    You've got to be kidding.



    People ...........  Muslims or otherwise Must have the right to speak out ., if the Muslim folks wants to boycott all the products of West, they must have freedom to do that..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #95 - September 02, 2012, 08:10 AM

    Sure, but there is a difference between Tom Holland and Holland (as in the Netherlands). At least last time I checked, there was.

    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #96 - September 02, 2012, 08:26 AM

    Sure, but there is a difference between Tom Holland and Holland (as in the Netherlands). At least last time I checked, there was.


    Ooops     lol .. I didn't read  much in the thread ., was that  the line of thinking of these Muslim bums?  if it is. what do we expect....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #97 - September 02, 2012, 12:37 PM

    This barcode stuff is an urban myth!  And 57 allegedly belongs to Denmark and Israel!

    http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/barcodes.htm

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #98 - September 02, 2012, 05:59 PM

    What do you expect? They're Muslims, man.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #99 - September 02, 2012, 06:18 PM

    I've not seen the documentary yet, but has anyone given thought to the IERA response?


    Your wish is my command, sire


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erxWJ5XdVnE

    A documentary by a British historian shown end of August 2012 on a British TV-Channel has ruffled some feathers amongst the Muslim community. Their feathers are easily ruffled as all it takes is someone pronouncing Muhammad or Koran in a way they don’t like, heated arguments and violence ensue.

    So imagine what a documentary of over an hour will do, if it dares to question the existence of texts from the viewpoint of a historian? Not a theologian, but a historian. Someone who looks at indications and left-overs from ancient days and then pieces them together to form a view or understanding what might, could or even probably happened.

    Only a few hours after this documentary was aired, a paper made the rounds, where Muslim apologists already attacked the veracity of the documentary, going into their usual whining and playing the victim card and begging for special consideration and mercy.

    But are there some points which are justly raised or something which was accurately raised as being erroneous?

    Let me point out something right from the start: Tom Holland is a historian. He does not have an attitude and now sets out to prove his point of view. He does not attack Muslims or their faith but tries to establish facts and I don’t think I am misrepresenting him here.

    iERA however is the opposite. They have made up their minds and anyone asking critical questions is attacking their entire existence, their raison d’être.

    And now I go through their points one by one.....

    -- Abdul Ala al-Ma'arri --
    There are two classes of men: intelligent men without religion and religious men without intelligence.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #100 - September 02, 2012, 08:32 PM

    ^ Holy crap, I just finished watching that on youtube itself (via twitter) when I saw your response above! dance
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #101 - September 02, 2012, 08:59 PM

    My video is on Twitter???


    edited by billy

    -- Abdul Ala al-Ma'arri --
    There are two classes of men: intelligent men without religion and religious men without intelligence.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #102 - September 02, 2012, 09:02 PM

    islam-The-untold-story on Ummah.com

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #103 - September 02, 2012, 09:09 PM

    Quote
    ".....so for Tom Holland to "reject hadiths", he might as well be rejecting most of history."


    Sometimes I just want to repeatedly smack Muslims heads against a wall.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #104 - September 02, 2012, 10:21 PM

    My video is on Twitter???


    Yes, Tom Holland tweeted your vid!

    http://twitter.com/holland_tom
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #105 - September 02, 2012, 10:23 PM

    Sometimes I just want to repeatedly smack Muslims heads against a wall.


    OK dude, lets not resort to violent imagery or rhetoric, no matter how frustrated we may get  Smiley

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #106 - September 02, 2012, 10:26 PM

    Yes, Tom Holland tweeted your vid!

    http://twitter.com/holland_tom

    Well, more like:

    http://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/242363463970717696
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #107 - September 02, 2012, 11:03 PM

    Well, I'll be ......

    I wonder how he got wind of this. I only released it last night. News travels fast, it seems.

    -- Abdul Ala al-Ma'arri --
    There are two classes of men: intelligent men without religion and religious men without intelligence.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #108 - September 02, 2012, 11:04 PM

    He did call you supercilious though Tongue Grin.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #109 - September 02, 2012, 11:09 PM

    My video is on Twitter???



    Good work dude Afro
     
    You lost me a few times, but that's obviously my fault and not yours. I was recently presented as Exibit A, in the academic paper that concluded that cannabis-smoking, whilst being a teenager, irreparably damages IQ. I was also the poster-boy for the recent NHS campaign to warn of the dangers of cousin-marriages.

    One question though dude: would employing a less incredulous tone, and chuckling slightly less at the claims being made by IERA, have helped in the reception of your argument by muslim ears? That way, you could have perhaps capitalised better, and reached out more, on any doubts that may have been generated by the original programme, within muslim minds?

    Hi
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #110 - September 02, 2012, 11:16 PM

    He did call you supercilious though Tongue Grin.


    Yes, of course. He does not know the history behind iERA and me.....

    -- Abdul Ala al-Ma'arri --
    There are two classes of men: intelligent men without religion and religious men without intelligence.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #111 - September 02, 2012, 11:20 PM

    One question though dude: would employing a less incredulous tone, and chuckling slightly less at the claims being made by IERA, have helped in the reception of your argument by muslim ears? That way, you could have perhaps capitalised better, and reached out more, on any doubts that may have been generated by the original programme, within muslim minds?


    Thanks. Normally, I'd agree with you. In the past I have tried different approaches. Serious, scholarly, light hearted, formal, etc. What I have found is that ridicule gets the most attention. And come on, is that paper of theirs funny, or what? If I would take all that stuff serious, I'd be in the loony bin by now.

    -- Abdul Ala al-Ma'arri --
    There are two classes of men: intelligent men without religion and religious men without intelligence.
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #112 - September 02, 2012, 11:29 PM

    In that case, carry on with the good work. This one'll definitely catch their attention.

    It's good to have something so comprehensive to point to in response to their twaddle  Smiley

    Hi
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #113 - September 03, 2012, 01:50 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J3kUMsktp0


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjFJipUCdCA


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afnLy3Q6pGY


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erxWJ5XdVnE

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #114 - September 03, 2012, 02:00 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMHblA6WfLY

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #115 - September 03, 2012, 02:10 AM



    mock·er·y/ˈmäk(ə)rē/
    Noun:   
    Derision; ridicule.
    An absurd misrepresentation or imitation of something.
    Synonyms:   
    derision - ridicule - scoff - jeer - mock - taunt - gibe

    To be fair to this guy, he probably hears a lot about how non Muslims have "mocked" his religion so he probably thinks that mockery just means something bad. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #116 - September 03, 2012, 02:34 AM

    Thanks. Normally, I'd agree with you. In the past I have tried different approaches. Serious, scholarly, light hearted, formal, etc. What I have found is that ridicule gets the most attention. And come on, is that paper of theirs funny, or what? If I would take all that stuff serious, I'd be in the loony bin by now.


    I'll add to musivore.  It's not so much that you take this Iera seriously.  I don't and we both can just look at the report and on a superficial level tell there are going to be problems based on the format, but unfortunately many Muslims do take Iera seriously and I think that you cut off that part of the audience.  I think you can keep it light hearted and slightly joking, but I would be careful with the scoffing and the dismissive attitude.  Just my two cents. I do look forward to your videos though.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #117 - September 03, 2012, 02:37 AM



    This is stupid, closeminded and tribalistic.  He dismisses any of the criticism from non Muslims and then paints a picture of Muslims vs non Muslims.  It's narrow minded tribalism pure and simple.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #118 - September 03, 2012, 02:38 AM

    TV historian triggers storm after calling Islam a 'made-up' religion

     
    on that mounting criticism from 100s of British Muslims .. Tom Holland responds to the programme's critics

    Quote
    Channel 4 has received a number of criticisms over my documentary, Islam: The Untold Story. This is a brief response_by   Tom Holland



    The origins of Islam are a legitimate subject of historical enquiry and this film is wholly in keeping with other series and programmes on Channel 4 where the historical context of world religions has been examined, such as The Bible: A History. A considered exploration of the tensions that inevitably arise when historical method is applied to articles of faith was central to the film. We were of course aware when making the programme that we were touching deeply-held sensitivities and went to every effort to ensure that the moral and civilizational power of Islam was acknowledged in our film, and the perspective of Muslim faith represented, both in the persons of ordinary Bedouin in the desert, and one of the greatest modern scholars of Islam, Seyyed Hossein Nasr.

    It is important to stress as we do in the film that this is a historical endeavour and is not a critique of one of the major monotheistic religions. It was commissioned as part of Channel 4's remit to support and stimulate well-informed debate on a wide range of issues, by providing access to information and views from around the world and by challenging established views.

    Quote
    As a non-Muslim historian I tried to examine, within a historical framework, the rise of a new civilisation and empire that arose in the late antique world as the two great ancient empires of Rome and Persia were in decline. The themes in the programme have been previously written about extensively by many other historians including: Patricia Crone, Professor at Princeton; Gerald Hawting, Professor at SOAS; and Fred Donner, Professor at Chicago  all of whom lent their support to the programme. The themes it explores are currently the focus of intense and escalating academic debate.

    An accusation laid against the film is one of bias and, although I believe that absolute objectivity is a chimera, what was incumbent upon us, in making the film, was to be up-front about my own ideological background and presumptions, and to acknowledge the very different perspective that Muslim faith provides. If the film was about the origins of Islam, then it was also about the tensions between two differing world-views. Whether one accepts or rejects the truth of the tradition is ultimately dependent upon the philosophical presumptions that one brings to the analysis of the sources.

    To answer some other substantive points:

    1. It has been suggested that I say in the film that Mecca is not mentioned in the Qu'ran. In fact, I say that Mecca is mentioned once in the Qu'ran. As a historian I have to rely on original texts and although later tradition (as brought to us through the hadith) has come to accept that other names are synonymous with Mecca, the fact is that there is only one mention of Mecca in the Qu'ran(although due to an unwarranted interpolation, a second one does appear in the Pickthall translation).

    2. On the broad perspective some complaints assert unequivocally, as is often said, that Islam was "born in the full light of history unlike the ancient faiths". That may have been the belief of Western scholars back in the days of Ernest Renan, but it is most certainly not the academic consensus today. One leading authority, Professor Fred Donner, who appears in the film, has written:

    "We have to admit collectively that we simply do not know some very basic things about the Qur'an - things so basic that the knowledge of them is usually taken for granted by scholars dealing with other texts. They include such questions as: How did the Qur'an originate? Where did it come from, and when did it first appear? How was it first written? In what kind of language was - is - it written? What form did it first take? Who constituted its first audience? How was it transmitted from one generation to another, especially in its early years? When, how, and by whom was it codified? Those familiar with the Qur'an and the scholarship on it will know that to ask even one of these questions immediately plunges us into realms of grave uncertainty, and has the potential to spark intense debate."

    This summary may fairly be said to represent the current state of play in the academic debate.

    3. It has also wrongly been suggested that we said there is no historical evidence for the seventh century origins of Islam. What I actually said in the film was that I had expected to find contemporaneous Muslim evidence - "but there's nothing there." And the Qur'an aside, the first mention of the prophet Muhammad's name in Arabic is on the coin that we featured in Part Five, and on the Dome of the Rock, which we also featured prominently. The evidence provided by Christian contemporaries was mentioned in Part Three, and is dealt with at greater length in the book.

    Obviously in a film of only 74 minutes, which opens up very rich and complex arguments and brings to light detailed academic scholarship, which has been going on for over forty years, it is impossible to articulate all the resonances and implications of every argument. Much more detail, with full citation of sources, will be found in my book In the Shadow of the Sword: The Battle for Global Empire and the End of the Ancient World. All the film can hope to do is to introduce this fascinating (but until now, largely academic) debate with careful contextualising to a larger television audience. The subject, it should be said, is advancing and changing all the time as new discoveries are made, and new insights are gained. That is precisely what makes it such a fascinating area of research, and an entirely valid topic for a documentary.


    Well that is what he says... Hope this doesn't start bombing and killing people in different part of the globe...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Islam: the untold story
     Reply #119 - September 03, 2012, 08:30 AM

    To keep me from doing anything useful, I watched a couple of those Youtuibe clips for once.

    Strewth. There are many 'stony rocks' to traverse before these emotional, vulnerable, insecure zealots enter... the world, basically.

    'Tom Holland offers no proof. We have proof. It's there in black and white in the Koran and the hadith. How very dare you.'
  • Previous page 1 2 3 45 6 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »