Islam: the untold story

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Islam: the untold story
OP - August 27, 2012, 11:52 AM

EEEeeeeeeee!!!! Literally lounging around on my bank holiday Monday and saw Channel 4 advertising this!! Sorry if this has already been mentioned in another thread, I'm not au fait with forums..

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/islam-the-untold-story

Historian Tom Holland explores how a new religion - Islam - emerged from the seedbed of the ancient world, and asks what we really know for certain about the rise of Islam.

The result is an extraordinary detective story.

Traditionally, Muslims and non-Muslims alike have believed that Islam was born in the full light of history. But a large number of historians now doubt that presumption, and question much of what Muslim tradition has to tell us about the birth of Islam.

As a result, Tom finds himself embroiled in what, for 40 years now, has been an underground but seismic debate: the issue of whether, as Muslims have always believed, Islam was born fully formed in all its fundamentals, or else evolved gradually, over many years - and in ways that Muslims today might not necessarily recognise.

So who was the historical Muhammad, and where - if not from God - might the Qur'an, the Holy Book of Islam, actually have come from?

By asking these questions, Tom - as a non-Muslim - has no choice, over the course of the film, but to negotiate the fault-line that runs between history and religion, between doubt and faith.

Very Excited as i'm going through so crap with the rents and I'm really hoping this programme will deliver!!!

A very very excited Hypnos
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #1 - August 27, 2012, 12:02 PM

Quote from: Hypnos on August 27, 2012, 11:52 AM
.......................

So who was the historical Muhammad, and where - if not from God - might the Qur'an, the Holy Book of Islam, actually have come from?

..................

So who was historical Muhammad ? And who wrote/where did Quran come from??

They are great questions to answer "Hypnos".,

Hmm., I didn't know this ..

Oh well, if it was., that was what it was., welcome to CEMB Hypnos..

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #2 - August 27, 2012, 04:10 PM

Looks interesting Hypnos and as it's not being produced or broadcast by the BBC it might not be as excruciating as the series Rageh Omar presented a few months back.
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #3 - August 28, 2012, 01:21 AM

Isn’t this based on his book, In the Shadow of the Sword? I have it set to record and I hope it will bring some new light for my parents .
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #4 - August 28, 2012, 06:33 AM

Sounds interesting. I've set it to record too
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #5 - August 28, 2012, 07:05 AM

Quote from: chris on August 27, 2012, 04:10 PM
Looks interesting Hypnos and as it's not being produced or broadcast by the BBC it might not be as excruciating as the series Rageh Omar presented a few months back.

Yeah, that was pretty much a complete whitewash.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #6 - August 28, 2012, 05:41 PM

Does anyone have a link to this documentary on youtube or some other place ?
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #7 - August 28, 2012, 08:04 PM

Bump. Just started.
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #8 - August 28, 2012, 08:42 PM

Lol twitter feed for it is funny. People getting mad.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #9 - August 28, 2012, 08:52 PM

Yes. In fact, this is my favourite tweet about it so far. I laughed. Hard.

http://twitter.com/Tulabilm/status/240549535326298115
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #10 - August 28, 2012, 09:08 PM

Lol the twitter feed reminds me of when I was a believer and was told that Mormon history didn't happen like it was told in the church.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #11 - August 28, 2012, 09:09 PM

I like the tweets "why aren't the talking to Muslim scholars?". You're kind of missing the point.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #12 - August 28, 2012, 09:18 PM

Some of the tweets are hilarious. Watching a group of people in the throes of cognitive dissonance...

http://bit.ly/Ory7c0

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #13 - August 28, 2012, 09:31 PM

History is written by the victors. And this very much applies to Islam. There's very little independent historical evidence to support Muslims' version of events.
I like Tom Holland's ideas, though. He's asking questions I never thought of before. For a lot of the questions, I initially think: "don't be ridiculous", but the more I think about it, the more I think maybe it's possible. I like his idea that maybe the Arab empire gave birth to Islam and elevated the figure of Mo, instead of the other way around. Religion always makes an army and empire more powerful. Just look at the Taliban.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #14 - August 28, 2012, 09:44 PM

Just took a look at the tweets, it seems the most re-occurring thing is that they are poking fun of the fact that he says that Mecca is not mentioned in the Koran.

I have not seen the doc because i am not in the UK, but I seem to remember that the book says that Mecca is only mentioned once in the Koran. So is that a mistake that the tv show has made? Or are the tweets making a mistake?

I would really enjoy watching the show, is there anywhere it can be viewed online?
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #15 - August 28, 2012, 09:47 PM

The tweets are mistaken - he said something like Mecca is not mentioned in the Qur'an "apart from a single solitary reference..."

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #16 - August 28, 2012, 09:51 PM

I think they could have easily had a lot more content in it, and still kept it stylish with obligatory shots of Tom wandering in the desert etc. For example I don't recall that he said anything about what he thinks about the origin of the Kaaba. But pretty interesting. Main impression is the sheer void of contemporary evidence about earliest Islam.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #17 - August 28, 2012, 09:54 PM

I think the Lot's Wife rock by the Dead Sea makes a lot more sense for the birth place of Islam!

And yes, Arabs meeting the sophisticated xians and Jews and then writing their own backstory and placing it in the middle of nowhere makes sense. Pity they cut and pasted stuff about olives! God's chief editor must have fallen asleep at the critical points!

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #18 - August 28, 2012, 09:56 PM

I loved the bit where he failed to bow properly to pray and the bloke next to him tried to get him to do it properly! Did the prayers then end incompletely?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #19 - August 28, 2012, 10:03 PM

Quote from: moi on August 28, 2012, 09:54 PM
I think the Lot's Wife rock by the Dead Sea makes a lot more sense for the birth place of Islam!

And yes, Arabs meeting the sophisticated xians and Jews and then writing their own backstory and placing it in the middle of nowhere makes sense. Pity they cut and pasted stuff about olives! God's chief editor must have fallen asleep at the critical points!

Yes! That was interesting.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #20 - August 28, 2012, 10:07 PM

I believe the only mention of Mecca in the Quran is Bakkah.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #21 - August 28, 2012, 10:17 PM

Quote
In Islamic tradition, Bakkah is where Hagar and Ishmael (Ismā'īl) settled after being taken by Abraham (Ibrāhīm) to the wilderness, a story related in the Bible's Book of Genesis (21:14-21).

Quote
Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the Desert of Beersheba.

Israel! NOT Arabia!

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #22 - August 28, 2012, 10:21 PM

Quote
"The historical saga contained in the Bible -- from Abraham's encounter with God and his journey to Canaan, to Moses' deliverance of the children of Israel from bondage, to the rise and fall of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah --was not a miraculous revelation, but a brilliant product of the human imagination."

http://www.atheistcoalition.org/docs/bible-unearthed.html

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #23 - August 28, 2012, 10:27 PM

Here's the verse about the road where the ruins of Lot's people can be seen:

37:137 "And most surely you pass by them in the morning,"
37:138 "And at night; do you not then understand? "

www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/037-qmt.php#037.137

There's also:

15:76 "And surely it is on a road that still abides. "
15:77 "Most surely there is a sign in this for the believers."

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/015-qmt.php#015.076

and this:
11:82 "So when Our decree came to pass, We turned them upside down and rained down upon them stones, of what had been decreed, one after another. "
11:83 "Marked (for punishment) with your Lord and it is not far off from the unjust."

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/011-qmt.php#011.083

The verse about the romans in the nearest or nearby land maybe fits in with it.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #24 - August 28, 2012, 10:33 PM

Quote from: ateapotist on August 28, 2012, 10:07 PM
I believe the only mention of Mecca in the Quran is Bakkah.

Correct. I remember doing a double take at that when I first started understanding Islam, only to be told it was a variant pronunciation of Makkah. Oh really?
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #25 - August 28, 2012, 10:43 PM

48:24 mentions makkah
"And it is He who withheld their hands from you and your hands from them within [the area of] Makkah after He caused you to overcome them. And ever is Allah of what you do, Seeing."

http://quran.com/48/24

3:96 mentions Bakkah but some translations say Mecca/mekkah even though it doesn't say that.

"Lo! the first Sanctuary appointed for mankind was that at Becca, a blessed place, a guidance to the peoples;"
http://quran.com/3/96

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #26 - August 28, 2012, 10:48 PM

^ True. 48:24 does mention Makkah explicitly. Although, it should be noted that that surah was one of the last to be revealed.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #27 - August 28, 2012, 11:05 PM

Wow. I’ve just been told on Twitter:

“to attempt to interpret the Quran one must be versed in Arabic grammar, Pre Islamic Arabian poetry amongst many other things”
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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #28 - August 28, 2012, 11:12 PM

Also 33:13 mentions Yathrib (later named Medina which means city)

"And when a faction of them said, "O people of Yathrib, there is no stability for you [here], so return [home]." And a party of them asked permission of the Prophet, saying, "Indeed, our houses are unprotected," while they were not exposed. They did not intend except to flee."

I guess Muslims would explain the Lot stuff by saying Muhammad was addressing Arab caravans who go past the highway under the pillars of rock when on their merchant travels.

They'd say verses about olives could refer to anywhere in Arabia like Ta'if which is fertile.

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Re: Islam: the untold story
Reply #29 - August 28, 2012, 11:22 PM

Quote from: Kodanshi on August 28, 2012, 11:05 PM
“to attempt to interpret the Quran one must be versed in Arabic grammar, Pre Islamic Arabian poetry amongst many other things”

Tell him to stop pulling shit out of his ass. The Quran states multiple times that Allah has made it clear and easy to understand.
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