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 Topic: Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles

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  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #30 - August 20, 2013, 06:18 PM
     Cheesy
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #31 - August 20, 2013, 07:30 PM
    btw, this essay is version "Pre-release Draft 0.9b".
    Aren't we lucky to get to see it before it is released. Tortoise is really spoiling us with this version 0.9
  • Re: Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #32 - August 20, 2013, 07:48 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on August 20, 2013, 12:00 AM

    The hard core salafis I can understand. They really do believe their own shit and they don’t apologize for it.



    Off topic but isn't it funny that if extremely radical salafists achieved their mission worldwide, everyone obeyed allah etc, he would cease to exist/die as his meaning would be devalued? Allah requires a hegelian antithesis to exist in that kind of thought, Qutb etc...

    How would you approach this if you were still a salafi? Feel free to open a new thread.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #33 - August 20, 2013, 08:01 PM
    I'd try to create a worldwide islamic North Korea. Which is pretty much Saudi and the worldwide political establishment if they get their way in my opinion. Allah won't die, he'll be Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-Il rolled into one.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #34 - August 20, 2013, 08:05 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 20, 2013, 08:01 PM
    I'd try to create a worldwide islamic North Korea. Which is pretty much Saudi and the worldwide political establishment if they get their way in my opinion. Allah won't die, he'll be Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-Il rolled into one.


     Roll Eyes

    How many bloody times do I have to mention hegel, philosophy, dialectic, hegel, philosophy, hypothetical, Hegel, Nietzsche, death of God, Nietzsche, Hegel, before you stop misconstruing my points? Tongue
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #35 - August 20, 2013, 08:12 PM
    Quote from: schizo on August 20, 2013, 07:48 PM
    Off topic but isn't it funny that if extremely radical salafists achieved their mission worldwide, everyone obeyed allah etc, he would cease to exist/die as his meaning would be devalued? Allah requires a hegelian antithesis to exist in that kind of thought, Qutb etc...

    How would you approach this if you were still a salafi? Feel free to open a new thread.


    Indeed. I’d agree with this. I’d say that this is true for most if not all extreme ideologies. Without the antithesis to constantly combat, they completely lose their value. This is particularly true for the ultraconservative neo-salafis of Saudi Arabia. (Particularly, I’m speaking of the followers of Rabee’ al Madkhalee, Ubaid al Jabiri, and the like here.) They need the “partisan innovator” in order to stay relevant. Even as I lived in Saudi Aarbia, it did not take long to become completely disillusioned with that brand of salafism, even if I did still seek a “purer” Islam at the time.

    Hamza Tzortzis is not anywhere near that level, even if we might generally refer to him and his organization as “salafi.” As scary as it sounds, I can actually follow his train of thought. I’d imagine the realities are not quite meeting up with his expectations and he is struggling to make those two ends meet. This is what leaves me wondering just how honest he is being with his audience. If he actually believes what he has written in his latest article, I find it hard to imagine how he can still fall so far behind the curve—given his prominent involvement in the discussion. If he is being willfully dishonest, which is a real possibility, then anything goes.

    I can only imagine the turbulence going on inside the man’s head right now. Reading between the lines, I think there is much more going on than he is letting show.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #36 - August 20, 2013, 08:17 PM
    I'm not misconstruing I'm disagreeing.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #37 - August 20, 2013, 08:36 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 20, 2013, 08:17 PM
    I'm not misconstruing I'm disagreeing.


    Yes you are, when utopia is formed allah has to destroy himself. invalidation due to lack of antithesis.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #38 - August 20, 2013, 08:44 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on August 20, 2013, 08:12 PM
    If he is being willfully dishonest, which is a real possibility, then anything goes.


    I am pretty confident his motive here is to make a bigger name for himself on the Islamic celebrity circuit.
    The science crap is huge. The linguistic miracle crap is relatively tiny, but Tortoise is pretty much the only one playing that game.
    He is the 'go-to man' for the linguistic miracle. His website theinimitablequran.com has been around longer than iERA have.

    He has pretty much defined the Islamic argument on the topic. By getting rid of the competition; "scientific miracles", a domain which is already saturated with dawah monkeys, and also one that he cannot possibly compete in, he can get a bigger slice of the pie be peddling his own linguistic crap.

    That he is simultaneously dumb enough to have ever thought there was science in the quran, at the same as smart enough to understand the many problems with the whole idea, and also at the same time, dumb enough (even dumber than before) to believe that the quran is a 'linguistic miracle', is too hard to believe.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #39 - August 20, 2013, 08:53 PM
    I know exactly what you mean. I guess I put too much trust in people’s own sense of integrity at times. The fact that someone who could not hold a 10 minute conversation in classical Arabic deems himself a qualified spokesperson for the inimitability of the Qur’an should be enough to make anyone skeptical. 
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #40 - August 20, 2013, 09:02 PM
    It's it possible he's that caught up in it?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #41 - August 20, 2013, 09:22 PM
    He wants to be to the linguistic miracle argument what W.L.Craig is to the Kalam argument. He was probably inspired by him while he was plagiarising him.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #42 - August 20, 2013, 09:30 PM
    "Silly christian with his Jesus is god malarkey and his silly beliefs not knowing the quran is the true word of god and he should be a muslim" Hamza thinks while copying his arguments to use for himself.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #43 - August 21, 2013, 12:46 AM
    To be fair, when WLC why his deistic arguments didn't better describe Allah he said the Christian God showed more empathy by becoming the son. Which I'm sure convinced no one
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #44 - August 21, 2013, 12:54 AM
    If I were debating him I wouldn't just go along with the deism thing, I'd stick to allah and not allow it to move onto any other god. Maybe if I keep quite I can do what The Rationalizer cannot, which I'm really leaning towards proving Hamza lacks the courage of his convictions.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #45 - August 21, 2013, 12:58 AM
    Theism is an immensely more difficult position to defend. Any honest representation of a Qur’anic argument for theism as it relates specifically to Allah’s right to be worshiped can not get far without relying on threats of hell.

    The Qur’an starts with the presumption that the reader believes in a creator god, then issues threats if that god is not worshipped alone. 

    It is Pascal’s Wager pure and simple.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #46 - August 21, 2013, 01:12 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on August 20, 2013, 08:12 PM

    I can only imagine the turbulence going on inside the man’s head right now. Reading between the lines, I think there is much more going on than he is letting show.



    I think this is probably close to the mark. I'm sure most of us here can empathise with the stage he is at. He may well need the help of CEMB in future if he does follow through with his doubts. Why is why posts like this:

    Quote from: dr_sloth on August 20, 2013, 08:44 PM
    I am pretty confident his motive here is to make a bigger name for himself on the Islamic celebrity circuit.




    Are unnecessary. By all means disagree with him and prove him wrong. However, unless you are privy to his private circle or inner thoughts, this is slander. It is a startling admission that he is making. If we are going to treat what he calls a move towards greater 'intellectual integrity' with such disdain then we might as well not read or engage with anything he says, label him a profiteer and move on. It may seem unlikely, but this man may become part of our community one day, is this really how we want to engage with admissions like this?
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #47 - August 21, 2013, 01:15 AM
    He'd never publically apostasise. SOme of those that follow him would kill him.
    Don't read all those science books bro, you'll just get more confused.

    That's funny. The more science I read, the less confused I get.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #48 - August 21, 2013, 02:11 AM
    Quote from: z10 on August 21, 2013, 01:12 AM
    It may seem unlikely, but this man may become part of our community one day, is this really how we want to engage with admissions like this?


    Little bit, yeah. If he flat out says "I've been having doubts, I'm not being honest" then I'll reconsider. Just because he leaves islam and/or becomes an atheist doesn't mean he is automatically a person worthy of my respect. Going purely by public statements not personal spur of the moment outbursts because he's had a bad week I do not in fact judge him worthy of my respect. If by some miracle he ends up a CEMB member I won't be hostile towards him and will be civil, but I'm not going to overlook the person he's proved himself to be. Which is a liar, a manipulator, a charlatan, a snake oil salesman, etc.

    Until he proves my impression of him false or convinces me he's changed I'm perfectly happy to take the piss out of him and anyone else who deserves ridicule.

    And one last thing, I'm not slandering him. Slander would mean I'm saying as fact something I know to be untrue.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #49 - August 21, 2013, 02:13 AM
    Quote from: jvegas on August 21, 2013, 01:15 AM
    He'd never publically apostasise. SOme of those that follow him would kill him.


    That a joke or do you really think it?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #50 - August 21, 2013, 02:51 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on August 21, 2013, 02:11 AM
    Little bit, yeah. If he flat out says "I've been having doubts, I'm not being honest" then I'll reconsider. Just because he leaves islam and/or becomes an atheist doesn't mean he is automatically a person worthy of my respect. Going purely by public statements not personal spur of the moment outbursts because he's had a bad week I do not in fact judge him worthy of my respect. If by some miracle he ends up a CEMB member I won't be hostile towards him and will be civil, but I'm not going to overlook the person he's proved himself to be. Which is a liar, a manipulator, a charlatan, a snake oil salesman, etc.

    Until he proves my impression of him false or convinces me he's changed I'm perfectly happy to take the piss out of him and anyone else who deserves ridicule.

    And one last thing, I'm not slandering him. Slander would mean I'm saying as fact something I know to be untrue.


    Nobody is stopping you from taking the piss out of incorrect opinions, my friend. My point however was that there is no need to question motives too...
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #51 - August 21, 2013, 06:08 AM
    Truth is an absolute defense for slander.
    We know he is dishonest. That is not slander. I am always going to question his motives, especially when my 'self serving tortoise' theory is the most plausible of the possible explanations. The alternative - 'a rare moment of honesty, and selective suspension of stupidity', asks more questions than it answers.

    This is an example of slander "Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy is a liar".
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #52 - August 21, 2013, 09:08 AM
    I really think that quod. He is a lynchpin. All the young dawah personslities quote him verbatim ie inductive methods, linguistic miracle the rest of it.  His life would be in danger
    Don't read all those science books bro, you'll just get more confused.

    That's funny. The more science I read, the less confused I get.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #53 - August 22, 2013, 09:48 AM
    I don't know Arabic, but doesn't Tzotzis lie here?:

    Quote
    The Moon Being a Borrowed Light “Miracle”: Another example is the word used to describe the moon’s light. The word used is nūran[20] (نُورًا) which means a borrowed or reflected light.

    “It is He who made the sun a shining light and the moon a derived light (nūran) and determined for it phases – that you may know the number of years and account [of time]. Allah has not created this except in truth. He details the signs for a people who know.”[21]

    The claim made by the scientific miracles advocates is that no one at the time, or even before, knew that the moon did not omit its own light. In light of history this is not true, at around 500BC, 1200 years before the Qur’ānic revelation, Thales said: ”The moon is lighted from the sun.”[22] Anaxagoras, in 400-500BC asserted that: ”The moon does not have its own light, but light from the sun.”[23]

     

    Doesn't the word 'نُورًا' simply mean 'light'? If so, I can't blame Tzortzis for lying about it. The idea that the Quran even contradicting the science of the time makes it look awful.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #54 - August 22, 2013, 10:08 AM
    Hammy relies on other people to do his work for him and doesn't speak Arabic. Could be lying, could just not be bothered to double check what someone told him. Either is likely.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #55 - August 22, 2013, 10:31 AM
    Stop Spamming is excellent as usual

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmcUQ7MsWa8
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #56 - August 22, 2013, 10:39 AM
    Ham vs Spam. Suddenly I want a sandwich.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #57 - August 22, 2013, 11:40 AM
    Quote from: z10 on August 21, 2013, 01:12 AM
    It may seem unlikely, but this man may become part of our community one day, is this really how we want to engage with admissions like this?

    Karma is a bitch.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #58 - August 22, 2013, 12:04 PM
    Quote from: billy on August 22, 2013, 10:31 AM
    Stop Spamming is excellent as usual

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmcUQ7MsWa8


    just curious.    http://www.youtube.com/user/StopSpamming1?feature=watch    is that your channel billy?   
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Tzortzis: Does the quran contain scientific miracles
     Reply #59 - August 22, 2013, 12:17 PM
    No. He's South African I believe.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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