Free Will vs. God's plan

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Reply #150 - October 21, 2013, 02:40 AM

Honestly, your best bet here is to go with much the same argument as the Vatican, which is that God used evolution as part of his plan, and humans evolved from other apes, with the difference that at some point God decided to throw souls in as an added bonus, ergo myths of "first humans", etc.

It's a position that can't be disproven, and it's the only way you'll be able to avoid tying yourself in knots when trying to deal with the evidence.

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Reply #151 - October 21, 2013, 02:42 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 21, 2013, 02:39 AM
More like
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Reply #152 - October 21, 2013, 02:43 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 21, 2013, 02:40 AM
Honestly, your best bet here is to go with much the same argument as the Vatican, which is that God used evolution as part of his plan, and humans evolved from other apes, with the difference that at some point God decided to throw souls in as an added bonus, ergo myths of "first humans", etc.

It's a position that can't be disproven, and it's the only way you'll be able to avoid tying yourself in knots when trying to deal with the evidence.

I'll think about it Osman. My political and religious beliefs have changed over the years.
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Reply #153 - October 21, 2013, 02:47 AM

Believe it or not I don't even think about god that much. Any god. It's usually just when I see you post something and I respond to it. Or other religious people trying to convince me. Apart from that, doesn't really occur to me.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #154 - October 21, 2013, 02:53 AM

Is it because you were raised in an Atheist home?
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Reply #155 - October 21, 2013, 02:55 AM

I don't think about it because it's not something that has any bearing to me in any way. How often do you think about goblins living under your bed except for our back and forth a while ago or right now.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #156 - October 21, 2013, 03:11 AM

Never think about goblins.
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Reply #157 - October 21, 2013, 03:27 AM

I never think about god, unless someone brings it up.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #158 - October 21, 2013, 06:13 AM

I have to deal with God on a bi-daily basis due to philosophy classes. Too many lectures have god as elements of the topic at hand or as a reference as an example.
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Reply #159 - October 21, 2013, 07:33 AM

Classical philosophy?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #160 - October 21, 2013, 07:55 AM

My comment on this evolution and creationism...sorry but I believe that God didn't just PLACE one man and one woman on the planet. Why would he need to? We evolved from some other animal that is extinct now. We were supposed to have a tail, however in our evolution it has been "snapped off" our anatomy. We have slightly webbed fingers and toes. We're so creepy xD
If we evolved from apes, apes wouldn't exist any longer. And definitely, cavemen looked nothing like how supposed Adam and Eve were conceived to look like. They said they look like humans nowadays, just naked...nah. The first humans were like smart but barbaric beings similar to other primates, then evolution kept going and going. Just my opinion.

Do ut des. I give so you may give.
Do ut fascias. I give so you may do.
Deficit omne quod nasciture. Everything that is born will die.
A preacher's logic: "Fais comme je dis, non comme j'agis." Do as I say, not as I do.
"Le parole est l'ombre du fait." A word is a shadow of action.
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Reply #161 - October 21, 2013, 07:58 AM

Quote from: bogart on October 21, 2013, 06:13 AM
I have to deal with God on a bi-daily basis due to philosophy classes. Too many lectures have god as elements of the topic at hand or as a reference as an example.

Ah, I have to deal with God every Friday for Islam religion class. Ugh. If I had a choice I'd just learn about all religions (there's a class for that) and only a few students are in that one. But no. Mom and Dad find out I don't want to learn about Islam, I'm screwed.

Do ut des. I give so you may give.
Do ut fascias. I give so you may do.
Deficit omne quod nasciture. Everything that is born will die.
A preacher's logic: "Fais comme je dis, non comme j'agis." Do as I say, not as I do.
"Le parole est l'ombre du fait." A word is a shadow of action.
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Reply #162 - October 21, 2013, 08:49 AM

Quote from: melymely on October 21, 2013, 07:55 AM
We were supposed to have a tail, however in our evolution it has been "snapped off" our anatomy.

Actually it's still there. It's just not very long. It's still very useful. If you remove it surgically it buggers up all sorts of stuff.

Quote
If we evolved from apes, apes wouldn't exist any longer.

Why not?

Quote
And definitely, cavemen looked nothing like how supposed Adam and Eve were conceived to look like.

Which ones? Cro Magnon people were virtually indistinguishable from modern humans, and they lived in caves.

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Reply #163 - October 21, 2013, 06:08 PM

Quote from: bogart on October 21, 2013, 06:13 AM
I have to deal with God on a bi-daily basis due to philosophy classes. Too many lectures have god as elements of the topic at hand or as a reference as an example.

That is because the Greek philosophers believed in a deity. The Greek philosophers believed in a natural god.
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Reply #164 - October 21, 2013, 06:12 PM

Quote
melymely
My comment on this evolution and creationism...sorry but I believe that God didn't just PLACE one man and one woman on the planet. Why would he need to? We evolved from some other animal that is extinct now. We were supposed to have a tail, however in our evolution it has been "snapped off" our anatomy. We have slightly webbed fingers and toes. We're so creepy xD

mely I do not believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible.

Quote
If we evolved from apes, apes wouldn't exist any longer. And definitely, cavemen looked nothing like how supposed Adam and Eve were conceived to look like. They said they look like humans nowadays, just naked...nah. The first humans were like smart but barbaric beings similar to other primates, then evolution kept going and going. Just my opinion.

mely do you even realize that young earth creationists say the same thing?
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Reply #165 - October 21, 2013, 06:14 PM

Quote from: melymely on October 21, 2013, 07:58 AM
Ah, I have to deal with God every Friday for Islam religion class. Ugh. If I had a choice I'd just learn about all religions (there's a class for that) and only a few students are in that one. But no. Mom and Dad find out I don't want to learn about Islam, I'm screwed.

You can learn about other religions online. Join a forum that discusses other religions. If you are on facebook there are a bunch of groups dedicated to other religions.
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Reply #166 - October 21, 2013, 11:45 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 21, 2013, 07:33 AM
Classical philosophy?

Yup but with lectures only lasting 3 hours twice a week each topic takes quite awhile to get through.

Quote from: C1981 on October 21, 2013, 06:08 PM
That is because the Greek philosophers believed in a deity. The Greek philosophers believed in a natural god.

Yup. Also considering Greek thought influenced theology and philosophy God is often in later lines of thought as well. I am interested when I can dig into Muslim and Islamic philosophy. Honestly I can not wait for eastern philosophy as it follows a different foundation than that seen in western philosophy.
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Reply #167 - October 22, 2013, 06:45 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 21, 2013, 08:49 AM
Actually it's still there. It's just not very long. It's still very useful. If you remove it surgically it buggers up all sorts of stuff.
Why not?
Which ones? Cro Magnon people were virtually indistinguishable from modern humans, and they lived in caves.

Oh really? I learn anatomy and I only know about the coccyx which is fused bones, yet we don't see any form of tail. Probably because the tail isn't that long?

And the reason why apes wouldn't exist, is because we would've been the evolved version of them, so since evolution is change over a long period of time, it would make sense.

And I am guessing the ones that looking the most like beasts and nothing like modern humans. So Cro Magnon? Plus earliest humans lived in caves anyway, that's why people call them cavemen.

Do ut des. I give so you may give.
Do ut fascias. I give so you may do.
Deficit omne quod nasciture. Everything that is born will die.
A preacher's logic: "Fais comme je dis, non comme j'agis." Do as I say, not as I do.
"Le parole est l'ombre du fait." A word is a shadow of action.
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Reply #168 - October 22, 2013, 08:11 AM

Well the coccyx isn't actually fused in most people. It usually has several jointed bones in it. It's what's left of our tail, but it's certainly not "snapped off". It's just not as long as some other tails. There are still a lot of important bits attached to it (ligaments, etc) so it's still functional, even if you wouldn't think so.

Anyway, let's talk fish. Humans, like all vertebrates, evolved from fish. So, rephrasing your question: if humans evolved from fish, why are there still fish? Well, there are, whether you like it or not. Sure, modern fish aren't identical to our common ancestor with them (although some are suprisingly close) but they're still fish.

Similar situation with apes. We have a common ancestor with gibbons. It wasn't exactly like a modern gibbon, and it wasn't exactly like any modern human (apart from a few weirdos in Deliverance country). However, this common ancestor was still an ape. That's why we can have evolved from apes and there can still be apes around today. In fact technically humans, including you, are apes. So it's not really accurate to see that we "evolved from apes". A better way of putting it is to say that we evolved from an ape that was rather different to our modern apey selves.

I know what a caveman is. My point was that if you're talking fairly recent hominins (like us) then unless you go back way more than 100,000 years, you probably wouldn't be able to tell them from modern humans, assuming both were dressed the same and had a decent haircut. IOW, all the ice age cave paintings and whatnots that you read about were done by people who were pretty much just like us, apart from a less advanced technology.

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Reply #169 - October 22, 2013, 08:30 AM

Quote from: C1981 on October 20, 2013, 08:09 PM
God created the universe as we know by initiating the Big Bang... no one knows what was present in the universe before the big bang.

Derp.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Reply #170 - December 12, 2015, 07:35 AM

I didn't go through the entire thread as I'm really hungry right now, but just had to post before I go find food.

I've been going through the comments on this forum about predestination and free will and pretty much the same argument is presented in every post.

e.g. predestination and free will cannot exist together. It's a paradox. Allah has sealed my heart so it's not my fault. He has already decided what we're going to do etc etc.

But most people have gotten the Islamic concept wrong IMO.

Actually, the best argument I've gotten from a Muslim, that I haven't been able to counter convincingly yet is the following:

"Allah hasn't decided everything for you, Allah has given you a free will. It's just that Allah knows what choices you're going to make and hence makes a pre-conclusion based on how a particular person's life has panned out.
Since he has the knowledge of the future, he knows what choices we will make in the future time frame and hence we are destined to do that. It doesn't mean that we won't have the free will while making those choices, just that Allah knows in advance"

I might not have put the argument in the best of words but what do you think?

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Reply #171 - December 12, 2015, 07:40 AM

Hate to reference Zakir Naik's link but this is the argument:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F6KL8poW8A

EDIT:
Another one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ar4cu5znTI

The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those that cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. - Alvin Toffler
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Reply #172 - December 12, 2015, 08:02 AM

It's not a good argument. It might be a halfway decent argument if it wasn't accompanied by the concepts of heaven and hell. Adding heaven and hell into the equation renders the free will argument ethically bankrupt.

The problem is that you have a deity who is taking it upon himself to grant rewards (not particularly good ones, IMO) and impose punishments (which are utterly horrific and depraved) after creating beings, when he knows in advance what they will do. IOW, he is deliberately creating sentient beings, with traits determined by him, so that he can send them to hell. This is in no way just or merciful, or even vaguely excusable.

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Reply #173 - December 12, 2015, 01:46 PM

hi,

I saw a science documentary about how we think/where our thoughts come from a few years back. I wish I could remember the name of it.

one experiment shows a man being put into a type of brain scanner and then he is given certain tasks to do. once he has finished the tasks the scientist tells him that they were able to predict his decisions 6 seconds before he actually made the decision. it freaked me out. I always thought our thoughts were our own. who is running the show? makes you wonder.
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Reply #174 - December 12, 2015, 03:56 PM

Quote from: mosster on December 12, 2015, 07:35 AM

Actually, the best argument I've gotten from a Muslim, that I haven't been able to counter convincingly yet is the following:

"Allah hasn't decided everything for you, Allah has given you a free will. It's just that Allah knows what choices you're going to make and hence makes a pre-conclusion based on how a particular person's life has panned out.
Since he has the knowledge of the future, he knows what choices we will make in the future time frame and hence we are destined to do that. It doesn't mean that we won't have the free will while making those choices, just that Allah knows in advance"

If Allah knows the decision I am going to make before I make it that is a predetermined future. Calling it something else does not make it anything less. This is not just about predestination as something ordained by God but that the future is set. This goes into the philosophical concept of determinism. Your video and your posted argument ignore this factor since they are oblivious to the philosophical concept and the issues around it. All they have done is replace one term with another and called it something completely different. The only difference is one is ordained by God while one is set by nature. However since God created nature, and knows the future, he still setup a predetermined outcome. Creating a pre-conclusion before the acts which provide the basis of the conclusion is predestination. God decreed my fate due to acts I have no taken yet.... Free will is not compatible with hard determinism. If not following hard determinism then God does not know the future. So either free will does not exist or God is not omnipotent but is restricted by time hence limited and not God. This is due to the nonsensical definition people use for God which backfire when put to scrutiny. Predestination is just determinism + God. The argument refutes nothing since the person making it is clueless.

Quote
I might not have put the argument in the best of words but what do you think?

As I said it is horrible based on the ignorance of what they are talking about. The first cause Nouman claim is that we want to do bad things which is merely an ad hominem and projection of his religious views of non-believers on to non-believers as if it was a fact. The second argument is nonsense since it was scripture to argue it's case which no one that is not a Muslim will accept and just confirmation bias. "My mythological figure didn't have an issue!" Well the fairies in my head disagree! Third cause is Satan which no one accepts that does not already accept the religion thus is nonsense while also being ignorance of the "oldest problem in philosophy" is not solved by Satan since God knows the future. If God knows the future but created Satan then he is responsible. The rest of the answers are just repeating religious rhetoric as if it was fact. Pure sophistry which does nothing to resolve the issue but preaches to the choir since the choir are oblivious almost as much as Nouman.
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Reply #175 - December 12, 2015, 03:59 PM

Quote from: babooshka on December 12, 2015, 01:46 PM
hi,

I saw a science documentary about how we think/where our thoughts come from a few years back. I wish I could remember the name of it.

one experiment shows a man being put into a type of brain scanner and then he is given certain tasks to do. once he has finished the tasks the scientist tells him that they were able to predict his decisions 6 seconds before he actually made the decision. it freaked me out. I always thought our thoughts were our own. who is running the show? makes you wonder.

Your example is about a prediction which is not knowledge of the future itself. This is not the same as predestination. The 5 second lapse time could be just the time it take between make thought and action transition.
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Reply #176 - December 13, 2015, 01:08 AM

hmmm......not sure if I made myself clear. the documentary was stating that the brain makes a decision 6 seconds before the conscious mind is aware of it. I find it baffling. I mean 6 seconds is a VERY long time. anyway i'll try and see if I can find a link on you tube. i'm not good at explaining.
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Reply #177 - December 13, 2015, 09:22 PM

There are many functions of the body that we are unaware of consciously. This is neither new nor unique. It is not baffling if one does not treat consciousness as being aware of all things at all times. Think about it this way. Our bodies need food for energy but we become aware of this need due to hunger rather than being consciously aware of the conversion of food to energy along with the available resources along with it's consumption. Consciousness is not unlimited so it is not surprising we are conscious of certain functions, choices, etc and no others.

Nakir's answer is nonsense since fate, knowing the future, etc, can not exist with free will. Keyword is know vs predict. If Allah only predicts the future then Allah does not know. If Allah knows then fate and the future is set.
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Reply #178 - December 14, 2015, 02:56 AM

bogart, do you read philosophy? I've been trying to get into philosophy, but seriously.... couldn't. All I could read is basically short explanations of philosophical words here and there. From wikipedia, too.

So... I read this somewhere on internet, the term is "compatibilism" and "incompatibilism". Apparently someone on the internet told me that most philosophers are actually compatibilist, they don't see contradiction in determinism + free will. Which means, knowing the future does not negate free will.

The example seems to be... You know the past? Does knowing the past mean you didn't have free will back then? Apparently that's the same as knowing the future (God).

Obviously God is different from someone inventing time machine to see the future. Because the future can still be changed even after you see the future. Doesn't have to go that way.
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Reply #179 - December 14, 2015, 06:40 PM

I took a few courses to cover my non-major credit requirements and found an interest in it.

There are philosophers that are incompatibles as well. Yes in a compatibilists view there is no contradiction. However this does nothing for predestination. Predestination is the suspension of free will in which God acts in a way against the free will of the individual. Say God makes a person unable to believe in any religion thus their response to religion is deterministic. God could make someone kill another person. The incompatiblist is not merely the absence of determinism. It still involves one' environment. For example a person that never heard of Islam due to isolation will never follow Islam since it is absent from their environment. Environment includes upbringing, education, location, etc, etc. So we can freely choose from a selection of option based on our environment and motivation. Now my environment has changed since I was once a Christian, then a pagan, then a deist and now an atheist. My criteria and standards have changed over time. I no longer accept ideas on faith. Obviously I take issue with ad hoc rationalizations. It would be like a classical physicist's followers claim that classical physics covers quantum mechanics perfectly and always had. Everyone else just read it wrong. Not the physicist like Newton but some Newtonianites 3 centuries later. Now if God is rational then God "knows" why I do not accept claims of all these religions being correct. God must accept that explaining reality via a ignorant primitive, compared to the education standards of the modern world, is a flawed method. God could of created an updated text at will as a miracle but does not. Hence I can still blame God's horrible communication skills when attempting to communicate whatever dictate it chose.

If God knows the future then the future is set. Everything is already determined thus fate. I will do X in Y amount of years. This hard determinism since it is the only way to know the outcome of a future event in the form of knowledge rather than a prediction. Prediction can be wrong thus are not considered knowledge Your point about the past is irrelevant since it is the past, events which already happened. It is not the same thing at all. You as assuming free will in past events as if it were a defense of future events. Yet you have done nothing to establish free will exists. You are begging the question. Assuming that which you are arguing.

There is also the issue in which God can counter people's free will then how does anyone think their own acts are based on their free will or suspension of it thus an act of God?

If the future can be change God can not know it. If the future can not be change it is deterministic thus no free will.

Sorry but your argument makes no sense at all. Merely calling God different does nothing to resolve time paradoxes. It would be like say Dr Who is different or God did it. It is useful for plot holes in fiction but nothing more.
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