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 Topic: Free Will vs. God's plan

 (Read 20727 times)
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  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #120 - October 19, 2013, 06:22 PM
    Also harmful ie distrust of atheists/non religious in religious countries.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #121 - October 19, 2013, 07:07 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 19, 2013, 06:22 PM
    Also harmful ie distrust of atheists/non religious in religious countries.


    This is nothing new. It is just tribal based family views that have dominated our history. All it really is a form of isolation given a new format that seems rational to those that subscribe to these views. Be it neighborhood, city, national or religion. It comfort those that hold such views, reinforces the idea that outsides are not to be trusts and isolates a "community" from "dangerous" influences.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #122 - October 20, 2013, 11:36 AM
    Lucky my country has atheists, and that we have a religious mixture + it's Europe, so no Sharia law therefore no one is killed.  Smiley However, family learns you don't follow the religion and they scold you, and force Islam or Christianity upon you. >_>

    And gays are attacked as well. No hope for us LGTBQ* minority, until religion is brought out of the picture. We need some Liberals sent here to mess this country's conservatism up, seriously.
    Do ut des. I give so you may give.
    Do ut fascias. I give so you may do.
    Deficit omne quod nasciture. Everything that is born will die.
    A preacher's logic: "Fais comme je dis, non comme j'agis." Do as I say, not as I do.
    "Le parole est l'ombre du fait." A word is a shadow of action.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #123 - October 20, 2013, 05:07 PM
    Which country is that mely?
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #124 - October 20, 2013, 06:11 PM
    Quote from: C1981 on October 18, 2013, 06:47 PM
    While I do believe that God created the universe and he does want to have a relationship with his creation. I also believe in a God who is transcendent and creates in a single absolute and eternal divine act. This does not mean that everything is created at once. God does not create sequentially, it is just that the perfection is not realized all at once. The best way to put this is the universe is on a journey ( evolution ).


    If God is timeless, or simply put outside of time, then he can not be the cause of anything. Causality is a property seen in the physical universe. It only works in the physical universe. If God caused something to exist in a timeless reality then de facto the universe has always existed. Which means God is a useless figure as the universe always has existed. God can not create something that already exists as God would be subjected to time, the universe is on par with God as always having existed, it also break the chain of causality. Indeed the same argument that exempts God from causality chain can be used to exempt the universe from just such a chain as well.

      If the universe is the result of a causality, chain of causality, it is can not be a result of a divine action, and if the universe is the result of a divine act it is not the result of a cause.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #125 - October 20, 2013, 08:09 PM
    God created the universe as we know by initiating the Big Bang. The type of God I believe in is transcendent meaning he is beyond the experience of our reality and he cannot be subjected to the very laws he created. Also no one knows what was present in the universe before the big bang.

    By the way I don't follow any of the cosmological arguments used by Christian apologists.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #126 - October 20, 2013, 08:16 PM
    Quote from: C1981 on October 20, 2013, 05:07 PM
    Which country is that mely?

     Bosnia and Herzegovina. Doubt we'd ever get rid of human rights abuse. Because our country is mainly Islamic. And there was a gay parade attempt in 2008, but Islamists and others protested and injured over 150.

    I find it funny how people say homosexuality is a harm to society...it's not a majority, so it cannot be harm. Plus, not all gays have AIDS. Most people in suffering parts of Africa do. And how come humans aren't the only ones with homosexuality present? 1,500+ species show signs of it. And still there's a lot of animals left in this world. Look at us humans. Imagine no homosexuals existed, how even more overcrowded this world would be. I always try looking at the positive sides and negative sides. There is no good without the bad, no positive without the negative is how I think.

    Plus, I've been told I am judging when I say that if you think homosexuality is wrong and your judging is as wrong as how you think homosexuality is. Am I wrong for saying that judging is as wrong? I am not forcing anyone to support the practice, but I hate the discrimination of human rights. It irks me. That's why religion irks me as well, especially Islam.
    Do ut des. I give so you may give.
    Do ut fascias. I give so you may do.
    Deficit omne quod nasciture. Everything that is born will die.
    A preacher's logic: "Fais comme je dis, non comme j'agis." Do as I say, not as I do.
    "Le parole est l'ombre du fait." A word is a shadow of action.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #127 - October 20, 2013, 08:26 PM
    I can invoke the same supernatural voodoo. The pre-big bang universe transcends our experience of reality, which is does as we are part of the current universe and not the "preverse". The "preverse" is not subject to the laws of the universe. You call X God that has a mind with all of our concepts we have developed and concept that are beyond us. I can call it a mindless state that is beyond us.

    Your argument is a First Cause argument. It follows the chain of causality until you decide to break the chain at the point which you already held. You do not conclude God is the reason, you already held that God was the reason. The argument doesn't prove a God and more than it proves a "preverse". You can insert any answer into the "what did it" premise. The argument doesn't resolve anything, it just move the goal post into a position neither side can falsify. Hume destroyed this kind of thinking centuries ago.

    Statements of beliefs, nothing more.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #128 - October 20, 2013, 08:44 PM
    Quote from: melymely on October 20, 2013, 08:16 PM
    Bosnia and Herzegovina. Doubt we'd ever get rid of human rights abuse. Because our country is mainly Islamic. And there was a gay parade attempt in 2008, but Islamists and others protested and injured over 150.

    I find it funny how people say homosexuality is a harm to society...it's not a majority, so it cannot be harm. Plus, not all gays have AIDS. Most people in suffering parts of Africa do. And how come humans aren't the only ones with homosexuality present? 1,500+ species show signs of it. And still there's a lot of animals left in this world. Look at us humans. Imagine no homosexuals existed, how even more overcrowded this world would be. I always try looking at the positive sides and negative sides. There is no good without the bad, no positive without the negative is how I think.

    Plus, I've been told I am judging when I say that if you think homosexuality is wrong and your judging is as wrong as how you think homosexuality is. Am I wrong for saying that judging is as wrong? I am not forcing anyone to support the practice, but I hate the discrimination of human rights. It irks me. That's why religion irks me as well, especially Islam.


    That sucks

    Well don't give up hope.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #129 - October 20, 2013, 08:50 PM
    Quote from: bogart on October 20, 2013, 08:26 PM
    I can invoke the same supernatural voodoo. The pre-big bang universe transcends our experience of reality, which is does as we are part of the current universe and not the "preverse". The "preverse" is not subject to the laws of the universe. You call X God that has a mind with all of our concepts we have developed and concept that are beyond us. I can call it a mindless state that is beyond us.

    Your argument is a First Cause argument. It follows the chain of causality until you decide to break the chain at the point which you already held. You do not conclude God is the reason, you already held that God was the reason. The argument doesn't prove a God and more than it proves a "preverse". You can insert any answer into the "what did it" premise. The argument doesn't resolve anything, it just move the goal post into a position neither side can falsify. Hume destroyed this kind of thinking centuries ago.

    Statements of beliefs, nothing more.


    bogart I never mentioned anything about a preverse. Nobody knows what was there before the Big Bang.

    If my argument is the First Cause Argument then it is a very poor example of it. Like I said I don't follow the Cosmological argument nor do I ever use it to debate Atheists as it pointless and will not convince someone who needs evidence to believe the universe was created by a Divine being.

    Most Christian presuppositionist arguments are bad arguments to use to convince Atheists God exists.

    My beliefs are more in line with Theistic Evolution, although still have a hard time accepting the theory humans and apes came from a common ancestor.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #130 - October 20, 2013, 08:52 PM
    So what explanation of human existence would make more sense to you?
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #131 - October 20, 2013, 08:58 PM
    Quote from: C1981 on October 20, 2013, 08:50 PM
    bogart I never mentioned anything about a preverse. Nobody knows what was there before the Big Bang.

    If my argument is the First Cause Argument then it is a very poor example of it. Like I said I don't follow the Cosmological argument nor do I ever use it to debate Atheists as it pointless and will not convince someone who needs evidence to believe the universe was created by a Divine being.

    My beliefs are more in line with Theistic Evolution, although still have a hard time accepting the theory humans and apes came from a common ancestor.


    The "Preverse" was/is the singularity prior to the Big Bang. It is the supposed state of the universe before the BB. Singularity being an unexplained concept or otherwise known as "I do not know". I used it to illustrate the point "Nobody knows what was there before the Big Bang" However your argument does not follow this strictly speaking. Your belief suggest you do know something. Which is that this state required a creator. So your argument does not follow all it's premises logically.

    P1= God exists prior to X
    P2= God created X
    P3= Prior to X is unknown

    P3 invalidates P1 and P2.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #132 - October 21, 2013, 12:06 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on October 20, 2013, 08:52 PM
    So what explanation of human existence would make more sense to you?


    Right now I believe humans were created by a divine being. As to how did humans develop that is still a mystery to me right now.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #133 - October 21, 2013, 12:08 AM
    Quote from: bogart on October 20, 2013, 08:58 PM
    The "Preverse" was/is the singularity prior to the Big Bang. It is the supposed state of the universe before the BB. Singularity being an unexplained concept or otherwise known as "I do not know". I used it to illustrate the point "Nobody knows what was there before the Big Bang" However your argument does not follow this strictly speaking. Your belief suggest you do know something. Which is that this state required a creator. So your argument does not follow all it's premises logically.

    P1= God exists prior to X
    P2= God created X
    P3= Prior to X is unknown

    P3 invalidates P1 and P2.


    All I know is God existed before the BB. As for everything else or the state before BB, I don't know.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #134 - October 21, 2013, 12:54 AM
    Quote from: C1981 on October 21, 2013, 12:08 AM
    All I know is God existed before the BB. As for everything else or the state before BB, I don't know.


    You believe, not you know. Just I as believe in "insert anything, not I know.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #135 - October 21, 2013, 01:07 AM
    Do not take my last comment as a snide remark. Most answers provided to this kind of question are equally plausible but not proveable. The only major differences are the reasons we concoct in order to hold firm to the answer(s) we like. An answer no matter how implausible is better than no answer at all.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #136 - October 21, 2013, 01:26 AM
    Quote from: bogart on October 21, 2013, 12:54 AM
    You believe, not you know. Just I as believe in "insert anything, not I know.


    I know that.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #137 - October 21, 2013, 01:28 AM
    Quote from: bogart on October 21, 2013, 01:07 AM
    Do not take my last comment as a snide remark. Most answers provided to this kind of question are equally plausible but not proveable. The only major differences are the reasons we concoct in order to hold firm to the answer(s) we like. An answer no matter how implausible is better than no answer at all.


    I am aware there is no physical proof for God.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #138 - October 21, 2013, 01:37 AM
    Quote from: C1981 on October 21, 2013, 12:06 AM
    Right now I believe humans were created by a divine being. As to how did humans develop that is still a mystery to me right now.

    But we went over this a while back. You said, IIRC, that you were aware the evidence for evolution was conclusive. You just didn't like it much.

    Now you seem to be completely denying evolution. What is your actual position?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #139 - October 21, 2013, 01:38 AM
    Quote from: C1981 on October 21, 2013, 01:28 AM
    I am aware there is no physical proof for God.


    There's proof for some. There was a storm last night, lots of thunder and lightening. Storms? Thunder? Lighting? In Britain? If that isn't proof for Taranis, I don't know what is.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #140 - October 21, 2013, 01:55 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on October 21, 2013, 01:37 AM
    But we went over this a while back. You said, IIRC, that you were aware the evidence for evolution was conclusive. You just didn't like it much.

    Now you seem to be completely denying evolution. What is your actual position?


    My actual is that I believe most of what evolution says, except for humans and apes having a common ancestor. I am still having a hard time accepting that theory.

    I will warn you that I am pig-headed and arguing with me about God and Christianity is like splitting-hairs. Yes I am aware of what science says about humans and apes having a common ancestor.

    I apologize for any confusion. I am not being dense on purpose.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #141 - October 21, 2013, 01:56 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 21, 2013, 01:38 AM
    There's proof for some. There was a storm last night, lots of thunder and lightening. Storms? Thunder? Lighting? In Britain? If that isn't proof for Taranis, I don't know what is.


    Hahahahaha Cheesy
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #142 - October 21, 2013, 02:03 AM
    Quote from: C1981 on October 21, 2013, 01:55 AM
    My actual is that I believe most of what evolution says, except for humans and apes having a common ancestor. I am still having a hard time accepting that theory.

    Ah. The Theory of Poodles by HappyMurtad. grin12

    Your problem there is that we're biologically almost identical to other apes, especially chimps. So, you'd be stuck with positing a god who deliberately created humans to appear as if they were apes, which would be rather tricksy and mean of him.  Also, the fossil record, although not totally complete, is definitely complete enough to be problematic for you.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #143 - October 21, 2013, 02:08 AM
     Cheesy That's going on greatest hits.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #144 - October 21, 2013, 02:17 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on October 21, 2013, 02:03 AM
    Ah. The Theory of Poodles by HappyMurtad. grin12

    Your problem there is that we're biologically almost identical to other apes, especially chimps. So, you'd be stuck with positing a god who deliberately created humans to appear as if they were apes, which would be rather tricksy and mean of him.  Also, the fossil record, although not totally complete, is definitely complete enough to be problematic for you.


    lol

    God deliberately created humans to appear as if they were apes? I never thought of it that way Osman.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #145 - October 21, 2013, 02:21 AM
    What a mischievous deity you worship.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #146 - October 21, 2013, 02:26 AM
    Quote from: C1981 on October 21, 2013, 02:17 AM
    God deliberately created humans to appear as if they were apes? I never thought of it that way Osman.

    Well, he is the ominpotent one, so presumably he had the option of not making humans appear to be apes, and chose to make them apey anyway. So methinks he's taking the piss there. Either that or evolution is real.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #147 - October 21, 2013, 02:35 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 21, 2013, 02:21 AM
    What a mischievous deity you worship.


     Angelic
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #148 - October 21, 2013, 02:36 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on October 21, 2013, 02:26 AM
    Well, he is the ominpotent one, so presumably he had the option of not making humans appear to be apes, and chose to make them apey anyway. So methinks he's taking the piss there. Either that or evolution is real.


    To be honest I don't know.
  • Free Will vs. God's plan
     Reply #149 - October 21, 2013, 02:39 AM
    More like signmuahaha
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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