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Theme Changer

 Topic: Help Me!

 (Read 77254 times)
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  • Help Me!
     Reply #510 - March 18, 2014, 08:52 PM

    If by Islam we mean the existence of Allah as defined and the divine origin/perfect nature of the Quran, I'm 100% certain Islam is not true.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #511 - March 18, 2014, 11:02 PM

    Nothing I want less than to be a muslim, so I don't wish to be one and try to desperately find evidence for it through science.

    Now, I have gotten a lot of information about the scientific "miracles" of Islam and I'm seriously thankful for it, it has helped me very much to cope with anxiety. That being said, when happymurtad explained the thing about 'noor' I believed it but now that I got arguments from the muslim side why 'noor' actually means reflected light, I would like to get some more arguments from skeptics side. So I'm not just repeating the same stuff but I'm bringing the claims up when I receive some "counter-refutation to refutations of skeptics".
    There's two things with the noor in the Quran.

    either argument 1:
    or argument 2:

    Well, you understand my stand quite well. 100% is over exaggeration but yeah, I would like to have more of Islamic claims refuted until I can live and die without fear of hell.


    That's what I mean. Even if you debunked every single claim and found plenty of holes, you would never be able to say with 100% certainty that the Qur'an wasn't divinely inspired, as Allah could have just put everything there to trick us all, Muslims included (how would one know for certain that Islam isn't a sick joke on Allah's part, damning the devout and rewarding the most heinous sinners?). You can apply the same idea to every other religion, but Islam in particular caught your attention because unlike most it leaves little of its afterlife to the imagination.

    'Until I can live and die without fear of hell', good luck with that. I think 'without unreasonable doubt' would be a better way of putting it.

    I'm surprised you never made the [human] evolution thread until recently. It's one of the most biting contradictions between the Qur'an and science, and it's a topic the most vocal apologists tend to fall silent on. I've seen attempts at shoehorning evolution (including that of humans) into the Qur'an but it's the same formula of post-hoc rationalization and semantics games that stacks up even less well than the other 'scientific miracles' when you look at the details and put the cherrypicked verses into context.

    With regards to the 'noor' thing, I can't help you on the linguistics side but I would be amazed if such a thing wasn't already well known at the time. Anyone with a working pair of eyes and a month of staring at the sky could have worked it out.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #512 - March 18, 2014, 11:50 PM

    Nothing I want less than to be a muslim, so I don't wish to be one and try to desperately find evidence for it through science.

    But that won't work. Science can't help you with non-emprical. For example, science won't help you criticize ideas like this one:

    Quote
    The Quran has verses that mention stuff about physical reality, therefore the Quran is the word of God.


    Do you agree that science can't help you with that?

    Here's the way to refute that idea using reason.

    The logic of the idea is wrong. It's saying that: If X (that some stuff in the Quran that explains physical reality is true), then Y (the Quran is the word of God).

    That logic is wrong because it's not true that If X, then Y, because maybe Z is true instead (a human wrote the Quran).

    So do you see that you can't use science to refute this idea and that instead what you need is reason?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #513 - March 19, 2014, 07:28 PM

    Siuanna please go to http://dict.yulghun.com/lane/ At the top right input page 2864, 2865 and 2866. Read those 3 pages which cover the word Noor along with it's variations. You will notice that light itself is the major use. Bayyin is never in the verse so it is pointless to insert the word into the verse. Nooran is a variation of light, never reflected in any definition

    http://www.wordreference.com/aren/%20%D8%A8%D9%8A%D9%91%D9%86
    http://www.almaany.com/home.php?language=english&word=%D9%86%D9%88%D8%B1&lang_name=Arabic&type_word=2&dspl=0
    http://www.almaany.com/home.php?language=english&word=%20%D8%A8%D9%8A%D9%91%D9%86&lang_name=Arabic&type_word=2&dspl=0

    Seems to me that your link's authors are liars which never used a dictionary or lexicon while I did. So which one is true? The one based on the dictionary and lexicon or the one which has provided neither as a reference.

  • Help Me!
     Reply #514 - March 19, 2014, 07:55 PM

    Thanks, I don't have now time to read your links right now because of other busy, but I just wanted to say that I respect your help. I will look at those I promise, probably tomorrow.
    I'm just amazed how well this forum treats me, how you girls and guys use your valuable time to help me get over my stupid crap.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #515 - March 19, 2014, 07:59 PM

    Your second link includes in it's definitions this:

    Quote
    - flash or cause to flash; glitter; sparkle; reflect
    - shine, especially like a wet object, snow, etc; glitter
    - shine, especially with a bright reflected light; sparkle


    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #516 - March 19, 2014, 11:56 PM

    Siunnaa, those are for different verb forms of the root ن و ر

    If you want to know the extent of the actual word used, consult some classical dictionaries

    http://ejtaal.net/aa/#hw4=1196,ll=2963,ls=57,la=4571,sg=1174,ha=818,br=995,pr=161,aan=688,mgf=827,vi=376,kz=2766,mr=759,mn=1473,uqw=1726,umr=1111,ums=945,umj=883,ulq=1727,uqa=434,uqq=410

    I find this to be a good resource. Just look at the Hans Wehr entry for nur (bottom left)

    " Nur pl. anwar: light; ray of light, light beam; brightness, gleam, glow; illumination; light, lamp; head light (of an automobile); lantern" then it goes into articulations of words that are a combination of nur and other words to make things like search light.

    Essentially, there's no connotation for the reflection of light but instead it just means light itself.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #517 - March 22, 2014, 09:13 PM

    What's up with the Quran's usage of "yukawwiru"? How do you guys understand the Quran saying that God yukawwiru the night over the day implying spherical object? Does it really refer to earth as spherical or not?
    Verse is 39:5.

    Also the Quran says that sun and moon have their own exactly computed courses. I'm worried it describes the actual orbit of the sun.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #518 - March 22, 2014, 09:19 PM

    Ya reckon? So the Quran describes how the Sun orbits the centre of our galaxy, including radius and time of orbit and stuff? Awesome. Can you show me where it does this?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Help Me!
     Reply #519 - March 22, 2014, 09:21 PM

    Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa
    What's up with the Quran's usage of "yukawwiru"? How do you guys understand the Quran saying that God yukawwiru the night over the day implying spherical object? Does it really refer to earth as spherical or not?
    Verse is 39:5.

    What problem are you trying to solve?

    Are you thinking that if the Quran actually said "spherical" instead of "flat" then that means it's the word of god? Or what?

    And if that's what you're thinking, well that's false. I've already explained this to you. Actually many people here have done that. Just because the Quran says something that is true, that doesn't rule out the possibility that a human wrote it. Do you understand this?
  • Help Me!
     Reply #520 - March 22, 2014, 09:23 PM

    Ya reckon? So the Quran describes how the Sun orbits the centre of our galaxy, including radius and time of orbit and stuff? Awesome. Can you show me where it does this?

    Why does that matter? EVEN IF the Quran says that, so what? What does it "prove"? Nothing! So why are you saying that? Why are you talking about things that don't matter at all?

    If somebody asks a dumb question, instead of answering the dumb question, why don't you question WHY he's asking it?

    If you don't do that, then you leave him to think that his question has a point, when in fact it doesn't.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #521 - March 22, 2014, 09:25 PM

    Oh give it up. Cheesy Cheesy

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Help Me!
     Reply #522 - March 22, 2014, 09:27 PM

    Mate, watch this. These are basically the claims of islam today.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbP8QycdE-M

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #523 - March 22, 2014, 09:33 PM

    I do not see the verse implying spherical given the rest of the verse talking about the sun and moon having a course and specific term for said course.  I see a flat Earth verse in which Mo is saying the sun and moon determine night and day rather than the rotation of the earth.  Yukawwiru, from my sources, does not imply spherical, but wind up, roll. Many objects which are not spheres can roll, a wheel for example. I can wind up a fishing reel and its a cylinder.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #524 - March 22, 2014, 09:33 PM

    What problem are you trying to solve?

    Are you thinking that if the Quran actually said "spherical" instead of "flat" then that means it's the word of god? Or what?

    And if that's what you're thinking, well that's false. I've already explained this to you. Actually many people here have done that. Just because the Quran says something that is true, that doesn't rule out the possibility that a human wrote it. Do you understand this?


    Not saying it would prove to be word of God but it's much better if the Quran is false with it's statements if one wants to get free of that religion. I personally cannot get over this if the counter claim is "Well, there's possibility that Mohammad may have gotten this from Greek philosophers". I need much more than that.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #525 - March 22, 2014, 09:35 PM

    Come on, Siunaa has such a sweet disclaimer in his signature! I like his questions. They're like little anti-apologist training sessions.

    I think he keeps us sharp!
  • Help Me!
     Reply #526 - March 22, 2014, 09:37 PM

    Mate, watch this. These are basically the claims of islam today.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbP8QycdE-M


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #527 - March 22, 2014, 09:43 PM

    Not saying it would prove to be word of God but it's much better if the Quran is false with it's statements if one wants to get free of that religion. I personally cannot get over this if the counter claim is "Well, there's possibility that Mohammad may have gotten this from Greek philosophers". I need much more than that.


    I hate to say it but at times this is what you will hear. Most of the knowledge the Quran repeats is based on Greek, Greeco-Roman, hellenized cultures and Persia based eastern cultures. You have very few options.

    1. It is from God
    2. It was knowledge discovered centuries ago
    3. It was guess

    Toss in Occam's razor which undermines 1. as an option as God is far from the simplest answer.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #528 - March 22, 2014, 09:46 PM

    Not saying it would prove to be word of God but it's much better if the Quran is false with it's statements...

    Ok, false with how many of its statements? Are you requiring that absolutely everything the Quran says must be demonstrably false?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Help Me!
     Reply #529 - March 22, 2014, 09:55 PM

    Mate, watch this. These are basically the claims of islam today.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbP8QycdE-M


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #530 - March 22, 2014, 09:57 PM

    Oh ffs stop quoting the same post. That's just spam.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Help Me!
     Reply #531 - March 22, 2014, 10:02 PM

    Not saying it would prove to be word of God but it's much better if the Quran is false with it's statements if one wants to get free of that religion. I personally cannot get over this if the counter claim is "Well, there's possibility that Mohammad may have gotten this from Greek philosophers". I need much more than that.

    What do you need exactly? Can you explain it?

    Or maybe you don't know. Are you waiting for a feeling to happen in you or something? If so, that's your problem. I suggest finding a solution to that.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #532 - March 22, 2014, 10:09 PM

    Oh ffs stop quoting the same post. That's just spam.

    I don't want him getting distracted, I want him to actually see how these bullshit outlandish claims come and are propagated by those who want them to be true and to get an idea of exactly what he's so worried about. Far as I'm concerned it's an act of compassion.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #533 - March 22, 2014, 10:11 PM

    New philosophy debate thread: is spamming the fuck out of my own posts an act of compassion towards humanity in general?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Help Me!
     Reply #534 - March 22, 2014, 10:14 PM

    If it's towards Siunaa Maailmaa and it has the desired effect, yes.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #535 - March 22, 2014, 10:20 PM

    I don't want him getting distracted, I want him to actually see how these bullshit outlandish claims come and are propagated by those who want them to be true and to get an idea of exactly what he's so worried about. Far as I'm concerned it's an act of compassion.

    but that's not Siunaa Maailmaa's real problem. Her real problem is that she doesn't even know what WOULD convince her. Her problem is bad epistemology. She doesn't know how to come to conclusions about things. She doesn't know how to *reason*.

    Now that I've said that, i should explain how to do it.

    1. it all starts with a problem. in this case, it's - did God create the Quran or not?

    2. we brainstorm/guess proposal theories as possible solutions. these are all rivals of each other.

    3. and we brainstorm/guess criticisms of those theories.

    4. and we also criticize the criticisms.

    points of clarification:

    - the goal is to refute/rule-out all theories but one.

    - for a theory to be refuted/ruled-out, it must have at least one outstanding criticism.

    - this means that a theory is either refuted or unrefuted.

    - the unrefuted theory is the one that refutes all of it's rivals.
  • Help Me!
     Reply #536 - March 22, 2014, 10:23 PM

    He, not she. And this mind numbing terror he has is a direct result of the exact same silly bollocks the link takes the piss out of.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Help Me!
     Reply #537 - March 22, 2014, 10:46 PM

    What do you need exactly? Can you explain it?

    Or maybe you don't know. Are you waiting for a feeling to happen in you or something? If so, that's your problem. I suggest finding a solution to that.


    I don't know what exactly would make me free but like numerous times before I've stated, I'm getting better. Now I see for example that Quran doesn't CLEARLY describe stars, sun, moon, earth etc. exactly like science has proved it to be. Now I can read the Quran myself without having every other passage saying to me: "This fits the science perfectly".
    I have now studied the Quran much more independently and it doesn't haunt me like it used to. My overall knowledge is growing and I can much easier spot BS than before (though I don't necessarily have the strength to leave the BS in the closet).
    What I would maybe declare as the thing to look for is this:
    Grow in knowledge every day of how the dawahganda is nothing but lies, tricks and propaganda. Understanding all viewpoints of these "Miracle passages" and understand them better. See their meanings in arabic. I can much more surely say than before that when I finally understand Islam very much, I will know it's not from God. But knowing that one day I will be free is far from being actually free.

    Other is obvious, unexplainable contradiction either within the Quran or then between Quran and science. I think evolution might be the key. I have now the link "29 proofs of macroevolution" given by Ishina on my other tab. If I, after reading those essays, see evolution as true, it might be the strongest single argument against Quran for me.

    Ok, false with how many of its statements? Are you requiring that absolutely everything the Quran says must be demonstrably false?


    No, not absolutely everything. I don't think it has to be demonstrably full of contradictions and wrong in every aspect to be manmade, not at all. What I still want to see is those miracle claims debunked for good. There are some miracle claims that I have came to see so clearly to be untrue and with some of the "stronger" ones I'm more confident on them having nothing special, but I'm not yet up there to say: "Quran describes flat earth, geocentricism, false embryology, false creation stories and much more"
    If I don't come confident with these miracle claims being untrue, then I must look for another way to cope. But now the road looks bright, path wide and I feel like Quran taught flat earth geocentricism but some counter arguments don't let me be comftorable with those views and I need to study more.

    I would like to see like 3 so obviously incorrect claims that they cannot be twisted out in any way. Not by "God knows best", not by "Everything's possible for God" or by "You just don't understand God's plan". Incorrect claims like Judas' death in the Bible.

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #538 - March 22, 2014, 10:50 PM

    I watched that South Park video you linked, it was good and also relevant!

    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Help Me!
     Reply #539 - March 22, 2014, 10:57 PM

    Stories about Moses is a good place to start. I listed a few books covering early Israeli based on archaeology and anthropology awhile ago. These books covers not just Israeli but also it's folklore, religious tradition and religion itself. The events of Exodus have been dismissed as created mythology in order to provide a foundation story of an emerging nation from the splintered Canaanite city-state system which collapsed in the Bronze Age II collapse.

    Dever, William (2001). What Did the Biblical Writers Know, and When Did They Know It?
    Dever, William (2003). Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From?
    Dever, William (2005). Did God Have a Wife?: Archaeology and Folk Religion in Ancient Israel.
    Finkelstein, Israel; Mazar, Amihay; Schmidt, Brian B. (2007). The Quest for the Historical Israel
    Rendsburg, Gary (2008). "Israel without the Bible"
    Finkelstein, Neil Asher; Silberman (2001). The Bible Unearthed
    Gnuse, Robert Karl (1997). No Other Gods: Emergent Monotheism in Israel
    Golden, Jonathan Michael (2004a). Ancient Canaan and Israel: An Introduction
    Golden, Jonathan Michael (2004b). Ancient Canaan and Israel: New Perspectives
    Albertz, Rainer; Becking, Bob, eds. (2003b). Yahwism After the Exile: Perspectives on Israelite Religion in the Persian Era
    Becking, Bob, ed. (2001). Only One God? Monotheism in Ancient Israel and the Veneration of the Goddess Asherah
    Becking, Bob; Korpel, Marjo Christina Annette, eds. (1999). The Crisis of Israelite Religion: Transformation of Religious Tradition in Exilic and Post-Exilic Times
    Day, John (2002). Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan
    Goodison, Lucy; Morris, Christine (1998). Goddesses in Early Israelite Religion in Ancient Goddesses: The Myths and the Evidence
    Grabbe, Lester L., ed. (2008). Israel in Transition: From Late Bronze II to Iron IIa (c. 1250–850 B.C.E.)
    Killebrew, Ann E. (2005). Biblical Peoples and Ethnicity: An Archaeological Study of Egyptians, Canaanites, and Early Israel, 1300–1100 B.C.E
    Pitkänen, Pekka (2004). "Ethnicity, Assimilation and the Israelite Settlement


    I can link Caltec's YouTube channel where you can watch 2 dozen lectures on the Exodus alone if you prefer lectures over books.
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