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 Topic: Rape: It is your fault!

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  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #120 - June 23, 2014, 02:04 PM
    The sad (creepy/disturbing/shocking/terrifying/sickening) thing is that seems to be more in line with what Harith thinks is normal.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #121 - June 23, 2014, 02:05 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on June 23, 2014, 01:37 PM
    To be honest, that particular outfit was put up there to make a point. I would wear a different non see-through top with the skirt. Or the shirt with shorts or pants. And I would wear it regularly, without tying it up Tongue I like skin, but I'm still a bit "conservative". I was brave enough to wear my shorts in public for the first time a couple of weeks ago Smiley

     Cry
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #122 - June 23, 2014, 02:21 PM
    I've actually known a person falsely accused of rape in an incident a couple years ago. Or, maybe it's more accurate to say that I knew the accuser, and it was a whole ordeal and it ended terribly for both of them. But it definitely fucked the accused guy up, totally ruined his reputation, and to this day, even though things have settled and the truth has come out, I think no one will ever look at him the same way as before. It was just a horrible situation the entire way through, and I'd say neither one recovered.

    That being said, what a terribly stupid and awful thing to say that it is more damaging/life-altering than rape itself. We don't need more suspicion cast on women who are brave enough to come forward and speak out against their attackers, and we especially don't need to paint this picture that the consequences of reporting rapes can be higher than the crime itself if misdirected.

    Can't we just agree that everything's bad and the world is horrible and it's time to retreat into virtual reality?
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #123 - June 23, 2014, 02:25 PM
    Quote from: INcePtion on June 23, 2014, 01:48 PM

    Couldn't read the whole discussion

    Were you reading the CEMB comments, the jezebel comments or the actual reddit thread comments? On the actual thread, the man in question answered peoples questions before he was executed. It's hard reading, but gives such an insight, in his own words.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #124 - June 23, 2014, 02:30 PM
    I was reading the comments on the reddit thread.It is just disgusting.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #125 - June 23, 2014, 02:32 PM
    I actually gave you the wrong one. This was the one I was thinking of.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=11303.0
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #126 - June 23, 2014, 02:43 PM
    Reddit has a very vocal and large whiny MRA contingent who rant endlessly about how most rapes are in fact false rape accusations due to "buyer's remorse" or desire for revenge for not getting a call or whatever. It makes my blood boil. I've had to force myself to stay away from those places because it was just making me angry, paranoid and suspicious about men. I found myself thinking, do they all secretly think this way?
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #127 - June 23, 2014, 02:47 PM
    Hopefully this thread and others show we don't. Smiley
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #128 - June 23, 2014, 02:54 PM
    Quote from: lua on June 23, 2014, 02:21 PM
    I've actually known a person falsely accused of rape in an incident a couple years ago. Or, maybe it's more accurate to say that I knew the accuser, and it was a whole ordeal and it ended terribly for both of them. But it definitely fucked the accused guy up, totally ruined his reputation, and to this day, even though things have settled and the truth has come out, I think no one will ever look at him the same way as before. It was just a horrible situation the entire way through, and I'd say neither one recovered.

    That being said, what a terribly stupid and awful thing to say that it is more damaging/life-altering than rape itself. We don't need more suspicion cast on women who are brave enough to come forward and speak out against their attackers, and we especially don't need to paint this picture that the consequences of reporting rapes can be higher than the crime itself if misdirected.

    Can't we just agree that everything's bad and the world is horrible and it's time to retreat into virtual reality?


    This is why sometimes I think rape or being falsely accused of rape is worse than murder. With murder the victim feels no pain afterwards and there is generally more evidence; weapons, poisons in murderers possessions et cetera; so there is more evidence to be sure that a thing has happened and who committed the act.

    Rape is a crime with so much circumstantial evidence that it is hard to sometimes figure out who is telling the truth.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #129 - June 23, 2014, 02:55 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on June 23, 2014, 02:32 PM
    I actually gave you the wrong one. This was the one I was thinking of.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=11303.0


    Hmm that is interesting. But do you really think he should've not been executed?
    I need to read more about serial killers Shocked


    Quote
    So I asked to be surgically castrated, with the support and approval of my treating psychiatrist. But the department-which I am sure was afraid of headlines such as "Sex Offender Castrated by State"-refused my request. It took more than a year of fighting by a lot of good people here in the Mental Health Department before I was allowed to receive the alternative medication, a monthly shot of a drug called Depo-Lupron, which I have been receiving to date.

    The problem was inside his mind -_-
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #130 - June 23, 2014, 02:58 PM
    It often is. There was a case in the UK in the last couple of years where somebody had been I think sectioned before for mental illness, got better and got released again where she went to the police asking to be sectioned again as she knew she was going to commit a murder. They didn't section her I think and the murder happened despite her asking beforehand to be taken out of harms way.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1059858/woman-jailed-for-life-for-grandmother-murder
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #131 - June 23, 2014, 03:02 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on June 23, 2014, 02:54 PM
    This is why sometimes I think rape or being falsely accused of rape is worse than murder. With murder the victim feels no pain afterwards and there is generally more evidence; weapons, poisons in murderers possessions et cetera; so there is more evidence to be sure that a thing has happened and who committed the act.

    Rape is a crime with so much circumstantial evidence that it is hard to sometimes figure out who is telling the truth.

    I don't think being falsely accused of rape is worse than murder. But even an accusation can have a lifelong stigma. Even if you're falsely accused, you have your details on the criminal database and show up in checks. If you're a teacher, or looking to take custody of an underage family member or adopt, or are a social worker, when they run a criminal records check it shows, and you're immediately disqualified. A number of places say flat out "If you have ever been convicted or accused of rape/sexual assault".

    My outrage is wide spread on this issue. The stigma attached to innocent people who have done nothing and the real consequences being accused carries for life, the people wicked enough to make them, and the actual victims who are so often slut shamed, demonised, blamed for being a victim or accused of making it up. Rape is one of those things where it's fucked up on a wide scale.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #132 - June 23, 2014, 03:06 PM
    This is why I would support anonymity until conviction for all involved and also for cases where things have been disproved that criminal records should be sealed only for use in the future if any criminal procedure happens involving that person.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #133 - June 23, 2014, 03:07 PM
    Quote from: INcePtion on June 23, 2014, 02:55 PM
    Hmm that is interesting. But do you really think he should've not been executed?
    I need to read more about serial killers Shocked

    The problem was inside his mind -_-

    I never said he shouldn't of been executed. This was the only comment I made.

    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on February 28, 2014, 10:56 AM
    The original post has been removed so I'm glad it was copied here. It's a fascinating insight into the mind of a monster. I'm reading the comments at the moment, which the man in question is responding to, and thankfully most of them have not been removed.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #134 - June 23, 2014, 03:10 PM
    I know, I was just asking to everyone.


  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #135 - June 23, 2014, 03:11 PM
    Ah, got it.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #136 - June 23, 2014, 03:12 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on June 23, 2014, 03:06 PM
    This is why I would support anonymity until conviction for all involved and also for cases where things have been disproved that criminal records should be sealed only for use in the future if any criminal procedure happens involving that person.

    A law passed recently in England under the Data Protection Act says that innocent people should have their details removed. I think if you're accused of sexual assault but no further action is taken, or you go to court but are found innocent, they keep your details for three years. After the three years are up a judge can order your details remain for a further two years, and that further two years can go on. Once the two years are up, the judge can order another two years.

    It's something I've thought about. On the one hand, if you are innocent, then it can very easily ruin your life like with the examples I gave above. On the other, rape is so hard to prove that there isn't always a 100% chance of the guilty being punished. I think keeping the details for an automatic three years and with possible further extensions go a way for balancing it, but I suppose logically if they were guilty there's no reason they can't wait until their details are removed and then rape again.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #137 - June 23, 2014, 03:19 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on June 23, 2014, 02:47 PM
    Hopefully this thread and others show we don't. Smiley

    Yeah, staying away from the MRA/PUA sites for months has helped. The "manosphere" is (was?) one of those things I had a morbid fascination with and it was not good for my mental health or views of malekind, lol. You made an excellent point about "human first" and that's really where all bigotry originates from, the notion that people are something other than fellow humans first.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #138 - June 23, 2014, 03:21 PM
    Thing is Quod that it makes no logical sense to worry either way if things haven't been proven as there is no more evidence to go on than an analysis of any member of the public who hasn't been accused. The current approach doesn't protect anybody in reality. Sometimes I think society has to 'forget' in order to live and not be in fear especially when it doesn't actually protect anybody. I also think people need to realise that the law and Govt. et cetera cannot protect fully and sometimes shit happens even with the best of intentions. Sometimes there isn't enough evidence therefore the only thing you can do is move on.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #139 - June 23, 2014, 03:24 PM
    Quote from: Al-Alethia on June 23, 2014, 03:19 PM
    Yeah, staying away from the MRA/PUA sites for months has helped. The "manosphere" is (was?) one of those things I had a morbid fascination with and it was not good for my mental health or views of malekind, lol. You made an excellent point about "human first" and that's really where all bigotry originates from, the notion that people are something other than fellow humans first.

    Yup.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #140 - June 23, 2014, 03:28 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on June 23, 2014, 03:21 PM
    Thing is Quod that it makes no logical sense to worry either way if things haven't been proven as there is no more evidence to go on than an analysis of any member of the public who hasn't been accused. The current approach doesn't protect anybody in reality. Sometimes I think society has to 'forget' in order to live and not be in fear especially when it doesn't actually protect anybody. I also think people need to realise that the law and Govt. et cetera cannot protect fully and sometimes shit happens even with the best of intentions. Sometimes there isn't enough evidence therefore the only thing you can do is move on.

    But see, that's the thing. On the one hand, keeping the information means you can't move on, this new law means those who might otherwise be cautious as they know their photo, fingerprints and DNA, along with a previous accusation, are on record, might be to scared to try it again. On the other hand, wiping all data means you have this worry removed, which can easily serve as a deterrent.

    A possible balance would be to keep so only the police can see it. But with how manic we are over safety, I can't see the police not giving into demands to share information on those accused.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #141 - June 23, 2014, 03:36 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on June 23, 2014, 03:28 PM
    But see, that's the thing. On the one hand, keeping the information means you can't move on, this new law means those who might otherwise be cautious as they know their photo, fingerprints and DNA, along with a previous accusation, are on record, might be to scared to try it again. On the other hand, wiping all data means you have this worry removed, which can easily serve as a deterrent.

    A possible balance would be to keep so only the police can see it. But with how manic we are over safety, I can't see the police not giving into demands to share information on those accused.


    We have become too manic over safety. I said to my mother that when I used to go climbing with my friend in NL that I had to sign a form every time saying the climbing wall place wasn't responsible for any injuries whilst I was there and her face dropped and started to look panicked. She was like you should have told us and we would have got sports insurance as you may have become vegetative. All I was thinking was, how much bureaucracy can you have before it all just goes tits up anyway as people lose papers and trust is completely lost? Also I could have got the same injuries from climbing a tree and there isn't any sports insurance for that, should nobody climb trees any more as a small percentage get injured? Personally if I got that injured I would say switch off the life support.

    Sorry rant there, but you get my message.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #142 - June 23, 2014, 03:38 PM
    Okay. You have a child. That child gets a new teacher. That teacher molests your child. In depth background check shows s/he was accused of the same thing a few years ago. Wouldn't you be demanding to know how that person managed to secure a position of authority over your child and others, with a prior accusation? Why it didn't show up?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #143 - June 23, 2014, 03:45 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on June 23, 2014, 03:38 PM
    Okay. You have a child. That child gets a new teacher. That teacher molests your child. In depth background check shows s/he was accused of the same thing a few years ago. Wouldn't you be demanding to know how that person managed to secure a position of authority over your child and others, with a prior accusation? Why it didn't show up?


    I can't say with any authority as I am childless so don't get the 'feeling of protection' over an actual child of mine at the moment; reaction may be different if I did have a child right now.

    Given that ...

    Would I be shocked; of course yes. If explained that the previous accusation was never proved I couldn't necessarily fault the decision makers as it would be no different in reality to a situation of child assault by a teacher with no prior accusations who may have done similar actions before but to no ones knowledge.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #144 - June 23, 2014, 04:03 PM
    It's a natural inclination for many that there's no smoke without fire. An accusation that shows up your entire life can ruin your life if you're innocent, but it can spare someone else if you're guilty.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #145 - June 23, 2014, 04:13 PM
    Its a hard one.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #146 - June 23, 2014, 04:15 PM
    I feel we need to be careful here of magnifying an issue that is actually very rare.  False accusations according to the CPS, stand at less than 1% https://fullfact.org/factchecks/false_rape_allegations_serious_but_rare-29200. (although some stats do show higher)

    Sadly this focus on false accusations continues to impact on a victims ability to see justice served, since most people continue to believe that false rape accusations happen more often than they actually do.

    Women who report rape are often already believed to be lying.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #147 - June 23, 2014, 04:18 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on June 23, 2014, 04:03 PM
    It's a natural inclination for many that there's no smoke without fire. An accusation that shows up your entire life can ruin your life if you're innocent, but it can spare someone else if you're guilty.


    Except with rape.  http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/13/rape-investigations-belief-false-accusations

    Of women that is, the whole no smoke without fire thing applies to child rape more than to adult women.  If we hear that a man/woman has been accused of molesting a child, we will forever be inclined to view them that way.

    On the other hand, more often than not, a man claims innocence in rape, tells his family, friends etc that she is lying, and more often than not they will believe him.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #148 - June 23, 2014, 04:21 PM
    Think that is based on the perhaps false assumption that children are innocent and always to be trusted and also the protective attitude towards them as a group. Women and adults in general I think are seen as tainted and suspicious so are less trusted as they are perceived to be able to tell a lie.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #149 - June 23, 2014, 04:22 PM
    Add in the protectivity around your children even when they are adults and you get a situation where men or women who have perhaps done these things are protected by their parents.
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