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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #150 - February 28, 2015, 12:35 AM

    No I don't know if it is.  Syriac literature is rarely translated, as far as I can tell, which sux (and probably helps to explain why its influence on the Qur'an has for so long remained underappreciated by Western scholars besotten by the pagan Jahiliyya romance of Classical Arabic).  Guess you must befriend a Syriacist and ask them for aid ...

    isn't it this one done by EAW Budge?
    https://archive.org/details/historyalexande00callgoog

    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #151 - February 28, 2015, 08:40 AM

    No I don't know if it is.  Syriac literature is rarely translated, as far as I can tell, which sux (and probably helps to explain why its influence on the Qur'an has for so long remained underappreciated by Western scholars besotten by the pagan Jahiliyya romance of Classical Arabic).  Guess you must befriend a Syriacist and ask them for aid ...


    lol... will do. Thanks  Smiley
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #152 - February 28, 2015, 08:43 AM

    Thanks Kephas. I will take a look when I get back this afternoon. I'm out and about atm
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #153 - February 28, 2015, 11:37 AM

    Finally caught up with the last couple of pages of this thread. Brilliant stuff as usual, y'all. Thanks.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #154 - March 02, 2015, 12:55 AM

    Zaotar, the last few links at hs.ias.edu do not seem to work for me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #155 - March 02, 2015, 01:01 AM

    Nevermind, seems to be a browser issue on my end
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #156 - March 02, 2015, 12:15 PM

    Is there an Islamic university at Mecca? Was it ever an important political and intellectual base?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #157 - March 03, 2015, 12:27 AM

    In the Muslims' history-texts, Mecca was (among other things) the Zubayrids' base and the capital of Abd Allah bin al-Zubayr's caliphate. On this much I don't see reason to dispute the Muslims. In the 60s/680s is when (in my opinion) we're getting a bit late in the game to argue with secular hadiths.

    So, in the 60s/680s, I'd accept Mecca as "an important political base" and as a religious one too.

    After that, Mecca served as a place of refuge for Muslim dissidents, mainly against al-Hajjaj in Iraq (governed 65-85 / 695-715-ish). Many of these dissidents were experts in Islamic fiqh. So, that's when Mecca became a legal centre as well; 'Ata' bin Abi Rabah being probably the most famed these days, because he features so highly in Harald Motzki's work.

    As for astronomy, mathematics, even theology - I suspect Mecca's culture wasn't ever exactly conducive to such pursuits. Scholars like that were better off in Samarqand and Baghdad.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #158 - March 04, 2015, 03:15 PM



    Audio interview with Robert Hoyland about his new book
    In God's Path: The Arab Conquests and the Creation of an Islamic Empire

    http://marginalia.lareviewofbooks.org/first-impressions-28-robert-hoyland/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #159 - March 04, 2015, 10:28 PM

    Exceptional article on the technical problems with a 'retroversion' from the New Testament Greek to a presumed Aramaic original.

    https://www.academia.edu/11271143/2014_Qumran_Aramaic_Corpus_Linguistics_and_Aramaic_Retroversion

    This is relevant to Qur'anic studies insofar as the article emphasizes how difficult it is to correctly identify an Aramaicism in a translated text, even when the text is known to be translated from the Aramaic, or to display Aramaic interference (like the Qur'an).  Part of the problem is that the 'corpus' of many Aramaic languages and dialects is irritatingly small and limited in register; we know much less about the day-to-day normal language than one might expect, and far less still about translation techniques that might have been applied to it.  With the Qur'an, where we don't even know which Aramaic dialect(s) influenced it, and where the original script is so incredibly ambiguous, this is a huge problem.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #160 - March 06, 2015, 05:52 PM



    Fred Donner and the 'earliest Arabic letter'

    http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/march/early-days-islam-030315.html
    Quote
    [...]
    But Donner has a key piece of evidence: a letter that he believes was written in that crucial early seventh-century period.

    Donner did not find the letter on one of his numerous trips to archives in Europe, the United States or the Middle East, but came across it inadvertently while preparing to teach a course at the University of Chicago, where he is a professor of Near Eastern history.

    According to Donner, both the script in which it is written and the names of people mentioned in the letter point strongly to an early seventh-century date. "As far as I can tell, it may be the earliest Arabic letter we have," he said.

    The stained and tattered papyrus is written in Arabic script and is mostly complete, except for a small part missing in the middle.

    "As you can see, it's a complete letter," Donner said, as he excitedly pulled up a digital image of the document on his laptop. "For the seventh century, you usually only find a little piece."

    Since arriving at Stanford last fall, Donner has been analyzing the letter along with other such original documents. "When you work on a papyrus like this, it's usually several years for a single page," he said. The letterforms can be puzzling, the documents smudged, faded and folded. He's been known to keep a copy of a difficult document posted on his refrigerator for years.
    [...]
    Donner was looking through digital scans of papyri at the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute when the letter caught his eye. It had been cataloged as an unremarkable commercial document, but Donner noticed a letterform in it that, he said, "was never used after the late seventh century."

    A striking aspect of the letter is that it features language that is monotheistic but not confessional – that is, it doesn't reflect any particular theologically defined monotheistic community. As Donner pointed out, it opens with the phrase "I praise to you God, other than whom there is no God," and closes with "Peace and God's blessing upon you," which would be acceptable to any monotheist – Jew, Christian or otherwise.

    While the letter does mention God, it offers no signs that this seventh-century worldview is "distinctly Islamic," he said. "No mention of Islam, or of Muhammad, or of the Quran; or, for that matter, of distinctively Christian or Jewish features, either."

    Donner has deciphered enough of the letter to see that it mentions a number of people who have the same names as several people who were close associates of Muhammad, though the prophet himself is never mentioned in the letter.

    "The constellation of names is very suggestive, and these are people who died in the first half of the seventh century," Donner said.

    He pointed to the mention of a seventh-century caliph, the supreme religious and political leader of an Islamic state, as significant. The mention of this caliph is especially noteworthy because there is no other secure documentation of his existence, only references from later texts, Donner said.
    [...]

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #161 - March 06, 2015, 06:24 PM

    Guillaume Dye, who I personally tend to think is the most consistently insightful Qur'anic scholar working today, summarizing a talk he will be giving on an early Qur'anic attempt to build an ecumenical Christology:

    https://www.academia.edu/11304725/An_early_unnoticed_attempt_to_build_a_christology_common_to_Muslims_ans_Christians

    Dye just gets it right.  Over and over.

    His point is also completely consistent with what Donner says in that article that Zeca cites above.  IMO, the Qur'an seems to represent an evolving compilation that seized on existing Christian texts and tried to build a nonconfessional monotheistic Arabic text from them.  Over time, that originally ecumenical project hardened into later layers that increasingly exalted the 'revelation' of a specific Arab prophet, who in the latest layers was identified as MHMD the seal of the prophets.

    "However, the part of Donner's argument that has received the most attention is the claim that this community of Believers included some Jews and Christians. A few passages in the Quran state explicitly that among the "peoples of the book" – its general term for Christians and Jews – are some who are Believers. According to Donner, it would not have been difficult for Jews and Christians to join since Muhammad's movement could appeal to anyone who believed in one God and in living a righteous life.

    Being part of the Believer community did not necessarily mean one had to give up one's membership in another confessional group, Donner said: "You could be a Believer and be a Jew; you could be a Believer and be a Christian. It's not like you had to convert.""
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #162 - March 06, 2015, 06:34 PM

    If I remember rightly that was one of the things Cook (and Crone) said - that the early community of 'believers' were Jews & Arabs and only later became a distinctly Muslim/Arab community.

    My memory is not that good - so I could be mistaken - but that's what I vaguely remember Cook (who was at SOAS when i was there) say in a talk he gave way back.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #163 - March 06, 2015, 06:54 PM

    Guillaume Dye, who I personally tend to think is the most consistently insightful Qur'anic scholar working today, summarizing a talk he will be giving on an early Qur'anic attempt to build an ecumenical Christology:

    https://www.academia.edu/11304725/An_early_unnoticed_attempt_to_build_a_christology_common_to_Muslims_ans_Christians

    Quote from: Guillaume Dye
    ....a number of Christian traditions of late antiquity relative to the celebration of Mary’s role in the Nativity, including the liturgical practices of a specific church in Israel/Palestine, namely: the Kathisma Church, which was located half-way between Jerusalem and Bethlehem and provided the architectural model for the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem....


    For more on this see Shoemaker's Christmas in the Qur'an

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27926.0
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #164 - March 06, 2015, 06:59 PM

    Yeah, that's a pretty standard view nowadays, that the early Believers were nonconfessional.  I think part of the difference is that Crone/Cook tend to take the Qur'an more as a literal historical document that in some sense reflects actual contemporary history about real people, whereas I think guys like Dye are considerably more skeptical about the degree to which the Qur'anic narrative reflects some real-world contemporary situation.  Donner is probably somewhat in the middle.

    Clearly there is a layer within the so-called "Meccan" texts that tries to build what I would call a coalition of *consensus Biblical monotheism*.  Part of this involves emphasizing how, properly understood, all monotheists believe the same things.  They reject paganism, they worship one God, and they believe in the Last Judgment, after which there will be bodily resurrection; these are the believers, and those who reject this are unbelievers.  In order to hammer that ecumenical message home, the Qur'anic texts downplay their deliverance by a unique messenger, and instead claim to be just a retelling of the same eternal message that all of the Biblical prophets and texts have always delivered.  If Jesus and Mary are properly understood, you will see that we all believe in the fundamental truth of consensus Biblical monotheism.

    In the later Qur'anic layers, this begins to disappear, as the emphasis on an ecumenical Christology which other monotheists could accept itself becomes turned into a way of defining the nascent community *against* Orthodox Christians.  The Believers are the ones who band together on the true monotheistic path, while those who insist on keeping confessional separation due to their insistent belief in Jesus's divinity -- the Orthodox Christians -- are subjected to increasingly bitter polemics, which help to further define the Believers as a distinctive community of their own.  It also rips on the Jews, not for any clear or coherent theological reason (the Medinan surahs struggle mightily to explain what, exactly, the Jews believe that is incorrect), but because they are keeping themselves a distinct religious community.  Probably this reflects an increasingly powerful and assertive Arabic speaking community which has given up on religiously merging with the Orthodox Christians, and has been unable to effectively assimilate Jews either.  Out of that failure of the ecumenical monotheistic project, an Arabic speaking confession defined by its unique holy text and unique prophet would slowly be born.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #165 - March 09, 2015, 03:51 PM

    Interesting conference now going on in Madrid - "History of Books in the Islamicate World"

    http://www.ilc.csic.es/sites/default/files/Programme%20with%20chairs%20HISTORIES%20OF%20THE%20BOOKS.pdf
    Quote
    Despite the constantly growing research regarding the literary history of the Islamicate World, our knowledge about what was available/popular/read in different periods and regions is still dismally patchy. There is hardly a period or a region during the long and diverse history of the Muslim world for which we can present a clear and detailed picture of which books were available and popular in any given discipline among the various circles, communities and societies (Muslim and non-Muslim alike). Nor do we know much, regarding most periods of Islamic history, about the diffusion of books, the processes of survival, selection and transmission of books, or the mechanisms and ways to include books in a teaching curriculum (the term “curriculum” itself carrying a rather vague meaning),exclude them from it, or remove them from the library shelves . We do not know why at certain stages works by authors of earlier generations became obsolete, while at other periods a clear preference for the more antique literature prevailed. We are equally ill informed regarding the different ways to manage scholarly information at any given time, nor do we possess comprehensive studies discussing theoretical and practical approaches of Muslim scholars towards scholarship or their changing predilection for specific literary genres. Related social practices of writing, copying, commenting, excerpting, citing or reading are similarly understudied. These lacunae appear even more glaring when compared to the far more advanced and refined state of scholarship on similar issues in Western contexts, ranging from the ancient Greek and Latin world, to the European Middle and Late Middle Ages as well as Early Modernity. What we have so far are mostly snapshots, each one of which focusing on a limited perspective. They show that the process of transmission was a dynamic and highly variegated one and that on many relevant issues there is a wealth of data and sources that need to be analyzed carefully. Moreover, the results of examining one area can at times be complemented, at times contradicted by those gained in a different context. Seemingly contradictory observations can be made for one and the same region and period (when we look, for example, at different religious communities). On the other hand, Islamicate societies (Muslim and non-Muslim) share meta-contextual characteristics of book culture and mechanisms of transmission of knowledge that render comparisons between the findings for different regions, periods and circles a rewarding enterprise. This is the rational of the conference and volume “Histories of Books in the Islamicate World”. The papers will address some of the most pressing desiderata in the study of the literary/intellectual history of the Islamicate World. It is our hope that by bringing such diverse studies together and discussing them among the participants of the conference, we will be able to distinguish between what is contextual and what is meta-contextual, what is specific to certain regions, periods, circles or religious contexts and what is characteristic for the Islamicate world and its book culture(s). As the same time, we expect that the papers and discussions will help to refine the methodological approach(es) towards this field of study.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #166 - March 15, 2015, 04:55 PM

    I just noticed this response on the CEMB Twitter feed
    Quote
    @CEMB_forum aren't there any professors in quranic studies of Arab descent who happen to be ex-Muslims? Their stance would mean a lot

    https://mobile.twitter.com/kuksiee/status/576737253529153536

    It's a reasonable question to which I don't actually know the answer. Any suggestions?


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #167 - March 15, 2015, 09:02 PM

    Tom Holland reviews Robert Hoyland's In God's Path: The Arab Conquests and the Creation of an Islamic Empire

    http://www.literaryreview.co.uk/holland_03_15.php
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #168 - March 16, 2015, 03:00 PM



    Robert Hoyland - Arabia and the Arabs

    https://archive.org/stream/ArabiaAndTheArabs/ArabiaAndTheArabs_djvu.txt
    Quote
    Long before Muhammed preached the religion of Islam, the inhabitants of his native Arabia had played an important role in world history as both merchants and warriors. Arabia and the Arabs provides the only up-to-date, one-volume survey of the region and its peoples, from prehistory to the coming of Islam. Using a wide range of sources - inscriptions, poetry, histories, and archaeological evidence - Robert Hoyland explores the main cultural areas of Arabia, from ancient Sheba in the south, to the deserts and oases of the north. He then examines the major themes of
    *the economy
    *society
    *religion
    *art, architecture and artefacts
    *language and literature
    *Arabhood and Arabisation

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #169 - March 16, 2015, 03:26 PM



    Angelica Neuwirth et al - The Qur'an in Context: Historical and Literary Investigations into the Qurʾānic Milieu

    https://serdargunes.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/neuwirth-quran-in-context.pdf
    Quote
    Although recent scholarship has increasingly situated the Qur'an in the historical context of Late Antiquity, such a perspective is only rarely accompanied by the kind of microstructural literary analysis routinely applied to the Bible. The present volume seeks to redress this lack of contact between literary and historical studies. Contributions to the first part of the volume address various general aspects of the Qur'an's political, economic, linguistic, and cultural context, while the second part contains a number of close readings of specific Qur'anic passages in the light of Judeo-Christian tradition and ancient Arabic poetry, as well as discussions of the Qur'an's internal chronology and transmission history. Throughout, special emphasis is given to methodological questions.


    Guillaume Dye reviews it here (in French)

    https://www.academia.edu/4287472/Le_Coran_et_son_contexte._Remarques_sur_un_ouvrage_récent
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #170 - March 17, 2015, 01:31 PM

    I'm not sure if this one has already been mentioned.

    Guillaume Dye - Traces of Bilingualism/Multilingualism in Qur'anic Arabic

    http://www.academia.edu/4730102/Traces_of_Bilingualism_Multilingualism_in_Quranic_Arabic
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #171 - March 19, 2015, 05:41 PM

    That's one of my favorite Qur'anic Studies articles ever, Zeca.

    A couple interesting articles just made available online by Uri Rubin:

    https://www.academia.edu/7559767/_The_Seal_of_the_Prophets_and_the_Finality_of_Prophecy_

    Also:

    https://www.academia.edu/6501155/_A_day_when_heaven_shall_bring_a_manifest_smoke_q_44_10-11_A_comparative_study_of_the_qur%CA%BE%C4%81nic_and_post-qur%CA%BE%C4%81nic_image_of_the_Muslim_prophet._

    I would turn Rubin's argument on its head when he says the following:

    "In the post-Qurʾānic tafsīr these eschatological cataclysms have been subjected to reinterpretation, which was inspired by the ideas of the exegetes about a new Muhammad, one who already in the Meccan period was able not only to warn the sinners of the Hereafter, but also to offer a tangible reaction generated by his possession of supernatural powers that yielded immediate results. The post-Qurʾānic reinterpretation has shifted the Qurʾānic warnings from the eschatological sphere to the historical one, and the predicted calamities were identified with Muhammad’s earthly victories over the unbelievers. Consequently, the difference between the Meccan and Medinan periods of Muhammad’s career was diminished considerably, and like the Medinan one, the Meccan period came to be marked not only by passive warnings of the Hereafter but also by temporal triumphant achievements. Thus, the idea was brought forth according to which Muhammad never suffered from the inability to respond in a proper manner to the challenge of the unbelievers, not even in the Meccan period."

    Ironically I think Rubin has rather nicely stated how the earliest layers of Qur'anic composition occurred, which is the exact opposite of what he is trying to argue.  Beliefs about a *historical apocalyptic Arabian prophet* were written into an *ahistorical eschatological homiletic* set of texts, weakly at first (Meccan) and then much more aggressively later (Medinan), culminating in Q 33.  The difference is that Rubin thinks this took place by post-Qur'anic exegesis, whereas I'd say it defines what the Qur'anic composition itself was.  When he talks about the Meccan and Medinan difference collapsing, *this is the primary object of the Qur'anic composition process itself*, collapsing two very distant religious phenomena into one text, a disjointed process that continued throughout and after the main Qur'anic composition.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #172 - March 19, 2015, 08:41 PM

    Zaotar - or anyone else - have you ever come across suggestions as to what might be the origins of the "Musa & Khidr" story in Sura al-Kahf?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #173 - March 19, 2015, 08:50 PM

    There is this section about it in wikipedia article if your interested

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khidr#Comparative_mythology

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #174 - March 19, 2015, 09:03 PM

    Is there anything stopping the koran ( or large chunks) being wriiten before the alleged life of mo?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #175 - March 19, 2015, 09:15 PM

    Is there anything stopping the koran ( or large chunks) being wriiten before the alleged life of mo?


    Well I would dearly love to see the texts the Arab Jews in and around Medina were reading. I suspect some parts of the Qur'an were based on stories brought by Jews & Christians who lived in Arabia.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #176 - March 19, 2015, 09:16 PM

    There is this section about it in wikipedia article if your interested

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khidr#Comparative_mythology


    Thanks TDR
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #177 - March 19, 2015, 09:33 PM

    Zaotar - or anyone else - have you ever come across suggestions as to what might be the origins of the "Musa & Khidr" story in Sura al-Kahf?


    No I haven't.  It's a very strange story.  It actually doesn't mention the name "Khidr" either as far as I know, that's read into it by later Muslim tradition.  It is told in a Qur'anic context (alongside the sleepers and Alexander stories) where an Arabic-speaking audience familiar with Syriac Christian stories that focus on apocalyptic resurrection (probably in the 630s/640s) would seemingly have already heard the 18:60 story that accompanies them.  The Qur'anic version also seems to systematically delete the name of the person that Musa met with, though that would surely have been known to the original audience.  Why delete that name?  I can only venture that whoever Musa met with in the original story was not acceptable to the Qur'anic writers at some later point.  It could have been Jesus, so that this was some sort of folk tale about Jesus meeting with Musa (a lot of the sort of snarky parables the guy gives sound vaguely Jesus-like).  One vague hint that this is the case may be the mention of the fish, a fish of course being the second most common symbol for Jesus, after the cross:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthys

    But you'd have to get a heck of a lot more evidence before such a hypothesis gathered plausibility.

    That wiki article cites a scholarly argument that al Khidr may be a derivative of Kothar, the Ugaritic 'minion' type god, but that sounds far-fetched to me.  If it was true, however, that may explain why such a pagan name was deleted from the Qur'an version.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #178 - March 19, 2015, 09:44 PM

    Yes, the Qur'an never mentions his name. It is found in some traditions.

    I thought this was an amusing one - where Khidr apparently turned up at Muhammad's funeral:

    "A powerful-looking, fine-featured, handsome man with a white beard came leaping over the backs of the people till he reached where the sacred body lay. Weeping bitterly, he turned toward the Companions and paid his condolences. Ali said that he was Khiḍr."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khidr#Reports_in_the_Hadith
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #179 - March 19, 2015, 09:45 PM

    Only Ali recognised him. Cue spooky music...
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