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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2130 - June 04, 2018, 05:24 PM

    Quote
    can we say that there  was a Muhammad  character around that time?


    Yes of course.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2131 - June 04, 2018, 05:26 PM

    Yes of course.

    Hmm.. then you need to tell his story (YOUR VERSION)..  and what was his FULL NAME ?? or..or  you think that Muhammad was also there before the birth of Islam?? I mean  before  the  year say 570 AD

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2132 - June 04, 2018, 05:29 PM

    Where? In the Quranic texts (4 times).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2133 - June 04, 2018, 05:37 PM

    Where? In the Quranic texts (4 times).

    I didn't get your question...  I was NOT talking about the word "Muhammad"  in Quran...  but the story of the person "Muhammad " between 570 AD  to 632 AD.....

    And we all know ((anyone who reads Quran carefully)) one  can easily say/write  Quran   with  a word "Muhammad" without a person Muhammad much before the birth of Islam

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2134 - June 04, 2018, 06:23 PM

    Quote
      I was NOT talking about the word "Muhammad"  in Quran...  but the story of the person "Muhammad " between 570 AD  to 632 AD.....


    The story comes from the Quranic texts (not the mushaf there's no mushaf before 650).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2135 - June 04, 2018, 06:50 PM

    The story comes from the Quranic texts (not the mushaf there's no mushaf before 650).

    My goodness gracious .. I bet many Muslims and non-Muslims have NOT heard that word  "mushaf/s" .,    Well then  with you I need to inquire  early  Islam in an entirely different angle .. I  got to go backward starting from Umayyad Caliphate...  and I will in time...

    but here you should explain to the reader what mushaf  means ., Briefly "mushaf"  is another version of  Quran or another term for quran to explain Reveled text of Islam ..  Most of the verses/surahs overlap with some exceptions ..

    All mushafs have the same organization of chapters and the verses within each chapter

    well this is a good one as an introduction

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2STh6v-4fg

    The Difference Between “Qur’an” and “Mushaf”

    *********************************************************************************
    anyways another question to you dear Altara..

    So you obviously do not believe in  Muhammad ..Mecca..Madina   and I am under the impression from your posts that  you also DO NOT believe  all these stories on Rashidun Caliphate(righteous/rightly guided Caliphates) and you consider those Rashidun Caliphate stories   are nothing but early Islamic stories  created by the later Caliphs of Islam...

    did I get that right from your posts??

    Now who do you think created all these early Islamic stories??

    Umayyad Caliphate (661 – 750)?? or Abbasid Caliphate (750–1258) ??

    or some from Umayyad Caliphate  and some stories from Abbasid Caliphate??


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2136 - June 04, 2018, 07:47 PM

    Quote
    anyways another question to you dear Altara..
    So you obviously do not believe in  Muhammad ..Mecca..Madina   and I am under the impression from your posts that  you also DO NOT believe  all these stories on Rashidun Caliphate(righteous/rightly guided Caliphates) and you consider those Rashidun Caliphate stories   are nothing but early Islamic stories  created by the later Caliphs of Islam...
    did I get that right from your posts??
    Now who do you think created all these early Islamic stories??


    Dear yeezevee I understand very well your pertinent questions. However you easily comprehend that this place cannot be the place where things can be said totally! It can be the place to enlighten certain notions, no more. For you to go on! I've said (many) things in this thread which can lead you to see one important thing : the historical affirmations of the Muslim narratives are inexact, being not validated by other sources.That's the starting point where you should rethink the entire stuff.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2137 - June 04, 2018, 08:36 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1003649768210489347
    Quote from: Ahmad Al-Jallad
    Did the Nabataeans – the builders of Petra – speak Arabic? The Nabataeans emerge in the 4th c. BCE, at the southern edge of the Levant, roughly in the area of the Iron Age kingdom of Edom. Theories of Nabataean origins usually regard them as immigrants from North or East Arabia.

    There really isn't any good evidence for this. The earliest mention of the Nabataeans already situates them in the region. Perhaps the reason why many scholars have sought an origin in Arabia is because the Nabataeans seem to have been speakers of Arabic.


    Also: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1003649806164774913
    Quote
    The last attestation of Nabataean Arabic occurs in the Petra Papyri, 6th c. CE. These documents record many Arabic words in Greek transcription from the city of Petra. After this period, it seems Nabataean Arabic was replaced by dialects coming from the Peninsula.

    Quote
    Nabataean Arabic is the dialect of Arabic used by the Nabtaeans, which we can partially reconstruct based on their inscriptions and Greek transcriptions. It is definitely not the ancestor of Classical Arabic or Quranic Arabic, as it had already lost tanwin and did not participate in grammatical innovations characterizing Higâzî, like the relative pronoun alladhî, etc. Hopefully more texts in Nab.Arabic will appear to help fill in the gaps in our knowledge.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1003705080602857472
    Quote
    Proto Higâzî is probably the southernmost peripheral dialect of Old Arabic, and it eventually gives rise to the central Arabian dialects through migration and settlement by Higazi Nabataeans in places like qaryat al-faw and nagrân in the first few centuries CE. The evidence from the pottery supports Nabataean settlement in these places.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1003699409585168384
    Quote
    Madâ'in Saleh, the original name of which is al-Higr or Hegra, was the southern capital of the Nabataeans and was built after Petra. The Nabataeans actually moved south into the Higâz, spreading their language (the script and Arabic) and culture (e.g. burial customs).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2138 - June 04, 2018, 10:37 PM

    Quote
    Nabataean Arabic is the dialect of Arabic used by the Nabtaeans, which we can partially reconstruct based on their inscriptions and Greek transcriptions. It is definitely not the ancestor of Classical Arabic or Quranic Arabic, as it had already lost tanwin and (cont.)

    Did the Nabataeans – the builders of Petra – speak Arabic? The Nabataeans emerge in the 4th c. BCE, at the southern edge of the Levant, roughly in the area of the Iron Age kingdom of Edom. Theories of Nabataean origins usually regard them as immigrants from North or East Arabia.

    Madâ'in Saleh, the original name of which is al-Higr or Hegra, was the southern capital of the Nabataeans and was built after Petra.


    (yawn) Yes And Retweeted by Van Putten. The rest below is not RT by him (nor Dye who RTed nothing of the Jallad stuff...)

    Quote
    There really isn't any good evidence for this. The earliest mention of the Nabataeans already situates them in the region. Perhaps the reason why many scholars have sought an origin in Arabia is because the Nabataeans seem to have been speakers of Arabic.


    We do not know what is "Arabia". Is it Bostra? The Yemen? The concept of "Arabia" as the Peninsula does not exist in Late Antiquity.

    Quote
    The last attestation of Nabataean Arabic occurs in the Petra Papyri, 6th c. CE. These documents record many Arabic words in Greek transcription from the city of Petra. After this period, it seems Nabataean Arabic was replaced by dialects coming from the Peninsula.


    Coming from we do not know, and nothing else, the Muslim tropism of Al Jallad is painful.

    Quote
    Nabataean Arabic is the dialect of Arabic used by the Nabtaeans, which we can partially reconstruct based on their inscriptions and Greek transcriptions. It is definitely not the ancestor of Classical Arabic or Quranic Arabic, as it had already lost tanwin and did not participate in grammatical innovations characterizing Hijazi

    Hijazi  qualification of whatever concept or thing  is an historical lie in all the use of it. Nothing from the "Hijaz" as recounted by the traditional account has ever been discovered. Not a piece. Hijazi  is a late (middle 19c.) appellation about the scripture of old manuscripts (in Paris) named Hijazi  by Michele Amari an Italian politician who believed to the traditional account as the historical truth. This appellation must be abandoned because it makes people believe the idea that the language of the Quran or the script come from this specific place in Western Arabia. It is inexact. Nothing comes validate this affirmation. (like the rest...). Again, Al Jallad with its Muslim tropism puts Hijazi  tag whenever possible.

    Quote
    Proto Hijazi  is probably the southernmost peripheral dialect of Old Arabic,

    Again...
    Quote
    by Higazi Nabataeans


    Lulz (Cheesy) Conjectures.

    Quote
    The Nabataeans actually moved south into the Higazi  spreading their language (the script and Arabic) and culture (e.g. burial customs).

    (It is the last phrase of the first Jallad quote) = Delirium tremens. Naming Hegra as a part of "Hijaz" whereas the word does not exist at that time is again use the trick to make believe the Muslim tropism. There's no "Hijaz" before Islam. Because there's nothing, only desert and swamp like Yathrib until Najran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2139 - June 04, 2018, 10:58 PM

    Saʻd ibn ʻAbd al-ʻAzīz al-Rāshid et al. (2003) - Āthār mintạqat Makkat al-mukarramah

    https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/34347203_10160575308745360_641547571470270464_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=AeGrWMulDcddEb6HTUFkYMO-CMs-471B9TdVNJMB-e-KWGp_ZblnjfP-dQpvGY4akdb7REF04KJaevz2VQdD7nRdps1Uh_tpSA3Z3kAwIni97A&oh=7352bef68cb8f03c456a647b6e871c14&oe=5B785022
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2140 - June 05, 2018, 12:03 AM

    And?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2141 - June 05, 2018, 10:17 AM

    Edit
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2142 - June 05, 2018, 10:18 AM

    Gibson has a new video concerning the history of Arabia and the Nabateans. Can any of you with some in depth insight give some feed back on the value of it?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=9lGCbEAFlu4
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2143 - June 05, 2018, 01:35 PM

    In his videos , I'm having trouble perceiving an explication of the origin of the Quran. Things do not fit. Muhammad lived in Petra? Why not. Then he'd have been a Greek speaker (Petra papyri). There would have been many many inscriptions about this guy to whom God talk every week : there's nothing. But, that the Muslims historiographers of the 9th c. have taken Petra as a model to describe "Mecca" in the "Hijaz"  at the time of "Muhammad" ( 7th c.) is a Gibson's very good finding He is perfectly right (only about that precise topic...) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOxZl60MyqE
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2144 - June 05, 2018, 02:04 PM

    Let's leave the Petra=Mecca thesis aside for the moment.

    In this video Gibson talks about the history of the Arabian/Nabateans and the remnants of this in the Quran (eg Aad= Uz and Tamud= after Aad (or after Uz). Is what he is saying about that subject correct or is it disputed?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2145 - June 05, 2018, 04:06 PM

    It is his own comprehension:  ((eg Aad= Uz and Tamud= after Aad (or after Uz).) of what says the Quran. He identifies this with that and that with this. It is very hazardous, as the Quranic text does not give identifiable names for common people of the 6 or 7th c. Orient who read it. This very fact (I think...) is that the purpose of the text is not to affirm their historical reality : this is not its concern.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2146 - June 05, 2018, 05:18 PM

    Early papyrus mentioning Umar b. al-Khattab.

    Regarding the book, it surveys inscriptions in Mecca. There are other works similar to it which I can recommend if you are interested. The pictures are now uploaded onto the database for the University of Alexandria.

    I want to go back to the Zuhayr inscription. As you know, some people are saying a part of the inscription is fraudulent, but upon further investigation, I am not so sure if that is true. Not saying it must be genuine, but one cannot reject it on dogmatic grounds or because it contradicts ones views. There are also several inscriptions like it on the very same trade route that probably date to the same time. The paleographical reasons adduced as evidence for its fraudulent nature are, based on my interactions with scholars, very weak. Maybe slightly unfair, but it seems that those who reject it are doing so due to polemical reasons.
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2147 - June 05, 2018, 05:51 PM

    Quote
    Early papyrus mentioning Umar b. al-Khattab.Regarding the book, it surveys inscriptions in Mecca


    Waiting for investigations about that stuff.

    Quote
    I want to go back to the Zuhayr inscription. As you know, some people are saying a part of the inscription is fraudulent, but upon further investigation, I am not so sure if that is true. Not saying it must be genuine, but one cannot reject it on dogmatic grounds or because it contradicts ones views. There are also several inscriptions like it on the very same trade route that probably date to the same time. The paleographical reasons adduced as evidence for its fraudulent nature are, based on my interactions with scholars, very weak. Maybe slightly unfair, but it seems that those who reject it are doing so due to polemical reasons.


    R.M.Kerr has written an article (in German of course...) about the Zuhair stuff. Is there a translation of it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2148 - June 05, 2018, 05:58 PM

    Yes, I am referring to the Kerr article. His article has not been published yet (it appeared in the proceedings of the last Inarah conference). Here is what I wrote based on my understanding of Kerr's reasoning:

    The word al-ḥakam was not spelled with a lām on top of the ḥāʾ until the Abbasid era. The second inscription cannot be from the seventh century. Diacritical marks on certain letters, such as bāʾ, tāʾ, zāy, shīn, and fāʾ, were only introduced in the late 8th century. The basmala – if belonging to the original inscription – should have been placed right before the word Zuhayr, considering there was plenty of space to inscribe it there. Differences is also seen in other letters: ʿayn, mīm”, and rāʾ, which are different from the original, the original inscription reading: anā zuhayr katabtu zaman tuwuffiya ʿumar, and the rest are later additions. The one who added the additional lines seem to be the same author of the ḥakam inscription. The script – if I understood it correctly – is apparently kufic and not hijazid, the latter being the earliest script used during that time, and not the former. When asked about this, Frédéric Imbert responded – in Lamsiah's eyes unconvincingly – that it is more difficult to inscribe than to write.

    Scholars are constantly finding new inscriptions. My impression is that many skeptics are ignoring these inscriptions. Even I did not know that there existed such inscriptions, especially in Mecca, or at least, close to Mecca. Al-Harithi has published an entire volume just on Mecca. 

    The ʿUmar papyrus is Papyrus E17861. Could be wrong, but I think Donner is the man behind it.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2149 - June 05, 2018, 06:34 PM

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1003926076102447109
    Quote from: Ahmad Al-Jallad
    Response to a DM: how far south did the Nabataeans go? There is evidence for trade as far south as Yemen, with a few Nabataean inscriptions from there. And not long ago @mohammed93athar published the first Nabataean inscriptions from the area of Yathrib (modern Medina).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2150 - June 05, 2018, 07:16 PM

    Well. We have (again)  to wait for an entire discussion between specialists regarding the Zuhair stuff. And there is nothing more (I think...) about the Umar papyri stuff.

    Quote
    the original inscription reading: anā zuhayr katabtu zaman tuwuffiya ʿumar, and the rest are later additions.

    Kerr is right, it is always possible:The worst being a "genuine" addition ; a guy wanting to complete it... (yawn) We'll never know..

    I want to add some reflections here dear Mahgraye . How is it that this issue with the existence of "Mecca" is the only one in the all history of cities in Antiquity?  This simple fact should alert any brain in the field. How can it be that there is no coins from this city? How can it be... (ad infinitum...questions).
    It is not normal. There is a big issue here. The response is  very clear to me. If it was not a question of "Islam" none scholar would have held the Muslims narrative as historical. None. Because there is no "Mecca" as the narrative recount it. There is nothing. No coins, no people, no food, no water, no allusion anywhere,  so no "prophet". Or a "prophet" speaking alone and died of starvation. Why not? But it is not the prophet of the narrative. "Prophet" elsewhere? Petra? All the area is Christianized, Dumat al Jandal? Idem. Yemen? Idem. And there's nothing, not an allusion for heavily Christianized people who wrote and address Iraqi stuff, Persian stuff, Roman stuff of the 6 and 7th c before 640. It seems that  it is hardly plausible that a such story (the Biblical God talking to someone during 20 years) remains unknown in the Orient of Late Antiquity.
    More. The Quranic text does not need to be in contact with God to be written down. I estimate that in the Late Antique Orient of the 6th .c 500 000  people might have wrote it down. On papyri (I think it is the first support where it was written like the Umar papyri of Donner.) Parchment is a (very) late support.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2151 - June 05, 2018, 07:19 PM



    I found the response : the Nabateans have founded the city of "Mecca".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2152 - June 05, 2018, 07:42 PM

    A lot was said, but I have one question: Who founded the City of Mecca and when did this happen? Ibn al-Zubayr in 670 CE? Did not get your comment about the Umar papyrus. Do you think it attests to Umar's historicity?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2153 - June 05, 2018, 08:22 PM

    Quote
    A lot was said, but I have one question: Who founded the City of Mecca and when did this happen? Ibn al-Zubayr in 670 CE?


    Explain why you think that at the Zubayr time and not in the Abbassid time for example (as you said for some Inarah guys who were pointing after 750 ...)

    Quote
    Did not get your comment about the Umar papyrus. Do you think it attests to Umar's historicity?


    It attests the figure of an Umar b. al Khattab. As already said, it could be a forgery. We have to wait for more investigations. What it is curious, it is that the expected things coming from the narrative are not precisely validated by the real stuff. What the Companion of the Prophet  Caliph of Islam, the Conqueror, do in this papyrus?
    It is because, he is not a Companion of the Prophet , not Caliph of Islam, or not a Conqueror. That is the response.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2154 - June 05, 2018, 09:23 PM

    The Zuhayr inscription is in Al-Ulla, very close to Mada'in Saleh. A quick visit to the site would be enlightening.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2155 - June 06, 2018, 06:25 PM

    Tom Holland writes about Al-Jallad`s research;

    "Fascinating as yet another pointer to the possibility that the original seedbed of Islam may have lain in northern Arabia, not the Hijaz, it's also a wonderful portrait of @Safaitic: a scholar whose love of learning has enabled him to redeem what was long lost from oblivion."

    Is he taking Al-Jallad`s views to far?

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1003541370466918400
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2156 - June 06, 2018, 07:08 PM

    Well... Arabs are in Palestine since 450 AD.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2157 - June 06, 2018, 07:21 PM

    Well... Arabs are in Palestine since 450 AD.


    well  Arabs were in Palestine .,   Arabs were in present Saudi Arabia and Arabs were in & around  northern Iran  and in many towns of present Iraq..  And they were there much before 450 AD ,,,  But  by 470  many of them were Arab Christians or Christianized Arabs

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2158 - June 06, 2018, 07:40 PM

    Tom Holland writes about Al-Jallad`s research;

    "Fascinating as yet another pointer to the possibility that the original seedbed of Islam may have lain in northern Arabia, not the Hijaz, it's also a wonderful portrait of @Safaitic: a scholar whose love of learning has enabled him to redeem what was long lost from oblivion."

    Is he taking Al-Jallad`s views to far?

    https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1003541370466918400



    Yes, he does. Holland has clearly not understood Al-Jallad's research nor the implications of it. Ironically, Al-Jallad's research contradicts the theory that the Koran originated somewhere in northern Arabia.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2159 - June 06, 2018, 07:52 PM

    well  Arabs were in Palestine .,   Arabs were in present Saudi Arabia and Arabs were in & around  northern Iran  and in many towns of present Iraq..  And they were there much before 450 AD ,,,  But  by 470  many of them were Arab Christians or Christianized Arabs


    Make the conclusion yourself  Afro
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