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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2880 - August 05, 2018, 07:17 PM
    Quote from: zeca on August 05, 2018, 06:36 PM
    I’d be inclined to see it as a collection of texts edited together.


    The narrative does not say differently.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2881 - August 05, 2018, 07:47 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 05, 2018, 07:08 PM
    Marc,

    I hope you don't see this as a questionnaire I must solve. Why don't you give your theory and I 'll tell you what I think of it?


    I don't have all the answers unfortunately but I think 3) and 4) are not a coincidence and 1) and 2) might provide the necessary link between east and west that the islamic tradition ascribe to the Quraysh.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2882 - August 05, 2018, 07:58 PM
    Quote
    The narrative does not say differently.


    How so?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2883 - August 05, 2018, 07:59 PM

    Quote
    How so?


    A collection of texts edited together.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2884 - August 05, 2018, 08:02 PM
    That is why Dye sees the Quran as a corpus.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2885 - August 05, 2018, 08:20 PM
    And the narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2886 - August 05, 2018, 08:24 PM
    So, the narrative is true on this point?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2887 - August 05, 2018, 08:34 PM
    It is Dye, Zeca, Segovia et al. who say that.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2888 - August 05, 2018, 08:36 PM
    See? Not everything in the narrative is untrue.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2889 - August 05, 2018, 08:36 PM
    By the way, what do you think of Segovia?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2890 - August 05, 2018, 08:46 PM
    Quote
    By the way, what do you think of Segovia?



    I was first!  Smiley What do you think of Jean claude Walters and the code theory?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2891 - August 05, 2018, 09:11 PM
    Quote
    I was first!  Smiley What do you think of Jean claude Walters and the code theory?


    Using mathematical code theory, Jean-Jacques Walter concluded that the Quran had ca. 50 authors. Could be true. The estimate certainly falls withing realm of possibility. But would I caution against using such technocratic methods to determine the number of authors. Sadeghi used stylistic analysis to argue that the Quran has one author.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2892 - August 05, 2018, 09:20 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 05, 2018, 08:36 PM
    See? Not everything in the narrative is untrue.


    It is not because Dye et al. and the narrative say the same that it is true. Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2893 - August 05, 2018, 09:23 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 05, 2018, 08:36 PM
    By the way, what do you think of Segovia?


    Segovia is interesting.  He asks questions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2894 - August 05, 2018, 09:24 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 05, 2018, 09:11 PM
    Using mathematical code theory, Jean-Jacques Walter concluded that the Quran had ca. 50 authors. Could be true. The estimate certainly falls withing realm of possibility. But would I caution against using such technocratic methods to determine the number of authors. Sadeghi used stylistic analysis to argue that the Quran has one author.


    AI will find. And will conclude like me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2895 - August 05, 2018, 09:30 PM
    Al-Jallad (draft) Arabic in Contact in the pre-Islamic Period -- handbook chapter

    https://www.academia.edu/37183890/Al-Jallad_draft_Arabic_in_Contact_in_the_pre-Islamic_Period_--_handbook_chapter
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2896 - August 06, 2018, 12:08 AM
    Altara - Does Dye consider Q 1:7 to be an interpolation? Have I got that right?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2897 - August 06, 2018, 07:28 AM
    ghayri l-maghḍūbi ʿalayhim walā l-ḍālīna for him is added. It is in the first part of the article as he discusses the fatiha viewed by Cuypers who has responded in an article on academia : https://www.academia.edu/25615808/Analyse_rh%C3%A9torique_et_critique_historique_R%C3%A9ponse_%C3%A0_Guillaume_Dye
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2898 - August 06, 2018, 01:04 PM
    So, technically, he believes that Q 1:7, parts of it at least, is an interpolation. He is not the only one. Munther Younes also believes that the entire last verse (v. 7) is a later addition. They might be unto something here. Younes' has posited several interpolations in the so-called Mecca chapters. As is the case with Q 1, remover them, and you have a very coherent and well-written texts. Hymns of sorts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2899 - August 06, 2018, 01:40 PM
    Quote
    So, technically, he believes that Q 1:7, parts of it at least, is an interpolation. He is not the only one. Munther Younes also believes that the entire last verse (v. 7) is a later addition. They might be unto something here. Younes' has posited several interpolations in the so-called Mecca chapters. As is the case with Q 1, remover them, and you have a very coherent and well-written texts. Hymns of sorts.


    1/ Yes.
    2/Why not. Dye has shown that the end of  (many) sura are interpolation.
    3/Removing seems to please everyone. I find it suspect.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2900 - August 06, 2018, 01:50 PM
    Yeah. You find the verses to be suspect, right?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2901 - August 06, 2018, 02:12 PM
    Nope. Reread me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2902 - August 06, 2018, 02:26 PM
    Oh! So you find the fact that many seem pleased by seeing said verses as later additions to be suspect?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2903 - August 06, 2018, 02:30 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 06, 2018, 01:04 PM
    So, technically, he believes that Q 1:7, parts of it at least, is an interpolation. He is not the only one. Munther Younes also believes that the entire last verse (v. 7) is a later addition. They might be unto something here. Younes' has posited several interpolations in the so-called Mecca chapters. As is the case with Q 1, remover them, and you have a very coherent and well-written texts. Hymns of sorts.

    strange  .. many of you guys make Quran incoherent by picking a verses somewhere in a Surah..

    well that Surah-1 of the book was such a small one  ..let us put all verses and read again and again..

    Quote
    In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
    All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
    The Beneficent, the Merciful.
    Master of the Day of Judgment.
    Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
    Keep us on the right path.
    The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors.
     Not  of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down,
    nor of those who go astray    .


    Question to you guys ..

    why do we need to remove those words of verse 7(they are in bold).. they sound good,  they rhyme well with other verses ..  why do you guys think that they were added at later time in to that surah?

    well I say  who ever they are.,  THEY ARE ON TO NOTHING
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2904 - August 06, 2018, 02:38 PM
    Much of this is indeed subjective. That is something one must bear in mind. But one reason for considering the last verse (v. 7) to be a later addition is due to three features: (1) negative element; (2) threat of punishment; and (3) much longer than the previous verses. As you can see, vv. 1–6 constitute a well-written, coherent, original set, a prayer of sorts, that is subsequently interrupted by the much longer and negative last verse.

    But Yeezevee is right. There is nothing inherently illogical with the last verse in order for it to be a later addition. As I noted, a lot of these theories are very much subjective. A scholar might clearly see an interpolation whilst another might not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2905 - August 06, 2018, 02:45 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 06, 2018, 02:38 PM
    Much of this is indeed subjective. That is something one must bear in mind. But one reason for considering the last verse (v. 7) to be a later addition is due to three features: (1) negative element; (2) threat of punishment; and (3) much longer than the previous verses. As you can see, vv. 1–6 constitute a well-written, coherent, original set, that is subsequently interrupted by the much longer and negative last verse.


    Nope ..................   the only thing I agree with you is that IT IS SUBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT of the reader...  not just 1-6,  all words in that surah are well written and well presented

    The words in verse -7 are as coherent as other ones ., it just depends upon how you read them .. In fact I say such Prayer verses  you can PUT IN TO ANY FAITH that were present before Islam  ..  Off course God uses  threats all the time in all faith books

    I agree to disagree with you and others on that dear Mahgraye
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2906 - August 06, 2018, 02:51 PM
    Scholars have mentionned that al Fatiha has some links with Psalm 1 ; that lies mostly on the last verse though the wording is not the same.

    I guess we can say, if that is the case, that it is an "honest" addition vs what I would call a dishonest one (eg adding the word Mecca where it wasn't)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2907 - August 06, 2018, 02:55 PM
    Correct! Even the basmala is a Biblical citation (Exod 34:6; Ps 86[85]:15). But I am not sure what you mean by Mecca being a so-called dishonest addition?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2908 - August 06, 2018, 03:18 PM
    Quote
    Much of this is indeed subjective.


    Walters would say that with the code theory, one can distinguish authorship in a scientific way... The only requirement is that the text needs enough characters.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2909 - August 06, 2018, 03:31 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 06, 2018, 02:55 PM
    Correct! Even the basmala is a Biblical citation (Exod 34:6; Ps 86[85]:15). But I am not sure what you mean by Mecca being a so-called dishonest addition?


    I was just saying that, here, if it is an addition, it doesn't really change the surah and doesn't try to send a different message than the original one (honest addition). On the contrary, if you add , it is only an example and I am not referring to something specific, Mecca in a verse where it wasn't in the first place, then this is a "dishonest addition".
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