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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3300 - August 20, 2018, 11:14 AM
    Quote from: mundi on August 20, 2018, 08:11 AM
    If you only have eg 10 literati people, not included in an organised network, and the pest hits them, or their son dies, or another calamity, chances are big there is no transmission and the knowledge dies out.

    If you have eg 10 groups of 10 literati, even if 1 group dies out, the network will assure the knowledge gets spread again. That is critical mass, enough to withstand a calamity without dying out.


    Not in Late Antiquity in Iraq and Palestine and their networks of cities and monasteries. I follow here de Prémare (and or Gallez) where they state rightfully (for me...) that the Arabic script you see in 512 and 568 are the work of Syriac Christianity on the last stage of what was the North Arabic script at that time, Nabatean maybe, before 512.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3301 - August 20, 2018, 11:16 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on August 20, 2018, 09:13 AM


    In fact I would say  the so-called  Islamic Golden Age  is nothing but The golden age of Arabic language  .

    Arabian Poetry, for English Readers by   Alexander Clouston  is a good book to read through


    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3302 - August 20, 2018, 11:27 AM
    Pre-Islamic Nabateans/Arabs travelled to India and China. They must have used a language/script to be able to organise this trade. Anyone knows of what language/script they used?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3303 - August 20, 2018, 11:34 AM
    Quote from: mundi on August 20, 2018, 11:27 AM
    Pre-Islamic Nabateans/Arabs travelled to India and China. They must have used a language/script to be able to organise this trade. Anyone knows of what language/script they used?

    wohoo .. what did you  drink last week mudi? you are hitting at  good points and good questions dear mundi..

    South Asian Languages ... Balouch to Bengali  or Keralites languge  to Kasmir/Urdu pashto language... they are literally some 100 major languages in that Indian subcontinent ..

    It is interesting to inquire how these  languages of Indian subcontinent   survived  for the past 2000 years or so  unlike other well known   languages around the globe which were famous in their times and died on the way
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3304 - August 20, 2018, 11:42 AM
    Quote from: mundi on August 18, 2018, 07:44 PM
    Nobody responded to my Kerr link on the subject. So repost it: https://www.academia.edu/2629114/Islam_Arabs_and_the_Hijra

    Kerr says it has to do with Heraclius, that the defence of the Holy land against tha Sassanides was kind of subcontracted to the Arabs, and indeed Easter 622 was the beginning of that Arab era.  I do think Kerr is kind of cryptic in his conclusion, so did I get that right?


    Islam, Arabs and the Hijra  By Robert M. Kerr    is that from some publication or just a blog??

    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg879194#msg879194
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3305 - August 20, 2018, 11:53 AM
    Yeez,

    Just had an ice-cream...

    Kerr: his academia site, has the article in German and English.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3306 - August 20, 2018, 12:03 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 20, 2018, 11:53 AM
    Yeez,

    Just had an ice-cream...

    hmm..  well IT MUST HAVE BEEN LACED WITH SOMETHING  Cheesy Cheesy

    Quote
    Kerr: his academia site, has the article in German and English.

    I must read that and I think  that time period of Heraclius and his connection with Islam need to be explored in detail., it is surprising to note  very little work has done by academia in that aspect
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3307 - August 20, 2018, 01:16 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 20, 2018, 11:27 AM
    Pre-Islamic Nabateans/Arabs travelled to India and China. They must have used a language/script to be able to organise this trade. Anyone knows of what language/script they used?

    Yes Aramaic in Nabatean script, whereas their language are Arabic
    When they stopped  (Roman conquest 106) travelled to India and China (150?) the inscriptions are increasingly in Arabic with Aramaisms.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3308 - August 20, 2018, 01:44 PM
    Syriac was still in use, until quite recently, by Christians in Kerala: https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-kerala/A-sacred-language-is-vanishing-from-State/article15278959.ece
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3309 - August 20, 2018, 02:01 PM
    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1031511403390291969
    Quote
    @shahanSean has an excellent thread on the earliest evidence for the Ḥajj in the Islamic period. But what evidence do we have for pre-Islamic Arabian pilgrimage? Various traditions of pilgrimage are attested in the epigraphy of Arabia, dating to the early 1st millen. BC (thread)

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3310 - August 20, 2018, 02:30 PM
    Quote
    earliest evidence for the Ḥajj in the Islamic period.


    640-50-60? Abd al Malik did the Hajj when he was young? ....

    Quote
    But what evidence do we have for pre-Islamic Arabian pilgrimage?

    Well, nothing.  (yawn).
    Quote
    Various traditions of pilgrimage are attested in the epigraphy of Arabia, dating to the early 1st millen. BC (thread)


    Then, why there is no allusion to the formidable city of commerce?

    When Anthony go out of his hypnosis?  That is the question...





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3311 - August 20, 2018, 02:52 PM
    let me make Altara words as statement instead of question  and add some spice in to them .
    Quote from: Altara on August 20, 2018, 02:30 PM
    .......................................

    ................ Anthony go out of hypnosis..................

    Not only Sean  Anthony .................

    ....................... .many of these Shahanshah historians of Islam in the academic departments WITH CERAMIC HEADS must come out of that ooold hypnotic Islamic history
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3312 - August 20, 2018, 03:20 PM
    Quote from: zeca on August 20, 2018, 01:44 PM
    Syriac was still in use, until quite recently, by Christians in Kerala: https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-kerala/A-sacred-language-is-vanishing-from-State/article15278959.ece


    Does not surprise me.
    In fact Arabic and Aramaic are much more intermingled than we can think. That is why the Quranic Arabic seems full of "borrowed" Syriac words beyond the Biblical lexicon which is perforce Syriac. But I think it reflects the state of Arabic at that time (550-600)  as well as in Iraq (when I say Iraq I say the today one) or Palestine/West Syria.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3313 - August 20, 2018, 03:27 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on August 20, 2018, 02:52 PM
    let me make Altara words as statement instead of question  and add some spice in to them .Not only Sean  Anthony .................

    ....................... .many of these Shahanshah historians of Islam in the academic departments WITH CERAMIC HEADS must come out of that ooold hypnotic Islamic history


    It is interesting to note that certain Western "Islamic scholars, Quranic studies, etc", in academia site  especially the young ones, and the women, transcribe their names in Arabic script besides their names.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3314 - August 20, 2018, 04:26 PM
    Quote from: Altara on August 17, 2018, 09:47 PM
    But I think to another option, which is only known by Muslim sources. Not interpreted in the way they interpreted it. An event before 632, of course.
    As you read French (?) Cf. Les fondations de l'islam...



    Something that did happen in 622 exactly or at whatever date before 632 ? I cannot see the second option because that calendar is really tying up to 622. I am re-reading De Premarre but , so far, nothing has caught my eye. I guess this is not the Omar trip to the Ghassan after the Yarmouk victory you are referring to ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3315 - August 20, 2018, 04:29 PM
    -
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3316 - August 20, 2018, 06:39 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on August 20, 2018, 04:26 PM
    Something that did happen in 622 exactly or at whatever date before 632 ? I cannot see the second option because that calendar is really tying up to 622. I am re-reading De Premarre but , so far, nothing has caught my eye. I guess this is not the Omar trip to the Ghassan after the Yarmouk victory you are referring to ?


    The topic was about hijra/ the year of the Arabs
    I said :
    Quote
    It can be a political event. R. Kerr has noted that it could be the starting of the counter attack of Heraclius in April  622. An interesting option.
    But I think to another option, which is only known by Muslim sources. Not interpreted in the way they interpreted it. An event before 632, of course.


    Nope this is not the Omar trip.
    Something that happened between 602 and 632 (the "death" of the "prophet").
    It is perfectly normal that nothing has caught your eye as de Prémare is of course a believer of the existence " of the "prophet" (even if he tries to understand and is suspicious). From the moment you continue to believe to this, you are hypnotised. When you get rid of it you read more carefully all the information he gives  and things which could fit to an event representing the year of the Arabs (as it is called in Muawiya inscription) which has nothing to do with a  "prophet"/Zem Zem and the rest...
    I'm sure you can find it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3317 - August 20, 2018, 09:15 PM
    Gibson has a new page: http://nabataea.net/joke.html

    Gives method to check out the Qibla direction of a few early mosques on google earth. It's easy and fun.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3318 - August 20, 2018, 09:30 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 20, 2018, 09:15 PM
    Gibson has a new page: http://nabataea.net/joke.html

    Gives method to check out the Qibla direction of a few early mosques on google earth. It's easy and fun.


    well Dan Gibson in that link is playing with hadith Muhammad NOT Quranic Muhammad dear mundi ..........  but this is useful picture  from that site

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3319 - August 20, 2018, 09:41 PM
    Quote
    Gibson believes that four times in the history of the Arabian Peninsula, the Arabs united and burst forth from the deserts conquering other nations.


    I like Gibson, but in telling this nonsense, he discredits himself about the Petra things... (yawn)...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3320 - August 20, 2018, 09:42 PM
    Yeez, Altara,

    on Dan Gibson link:

    I posted the link for the google map info. We don't need to agree with EVERYTHING a scholar says to find a certain aspect of his study interesting, do we?

    What I am interested here is the objectively assessable feature of the direction of early mosques and qibla. That is not connected to hadith or Quran but connected to the geographical directions of North, South, East, West...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3321 - August 20, 2018, 10:03 PM
    Quote
    What I am interested here is the objectively assessable feature of the direction of early mosques and qibla.


    You knew it was true anyway... Otherwise I have an idea about why facing Petra. Petra is Ar Raqim (Q 18). See the Shaddel paper in academia.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3322 - August 20, 2018, 11:57 PM
    Imru al-Qays? The hijra stuff?

    Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3323 - August 21, 2018, 07:23 AM
    Two interesting productions (French) by Simon Pierre  :Compte rendu de D. GENEQUAND, CHR. ROBIN, LES JAFNIDES. DES ROIS ARABES AU SERVICE DE BYZANCE, PARIS, 2015
    https://www.academia.edu/35988411/Compte_rendu_de_D._GENEQUAND_CHR._ROBIN_LES_JAFNIDES._DES_ROIS_ARABES_AU_SERVICE_DE_BYZANCE_PARIS_2015
    And his Master 2 dissertation :
    Les tribus arabes chrétiennes de Haute-Mésopotamie (Ier/VIIe -IIe/VIIIe siècles), Mémoire de Master 2 sous la direction d'Anne-Marie Eddé, Paris I, 2017
    https://www.academia.edu/34609741/Les_tribus_arabes_chr%C3%A9tiennes_de_Haute-M%C3%A9sopotamie_Ier_VIIe_-IIe_VIIIe_si%C3%A8cles_M%C3%A9moire_de_Master_2_sous_la_direction_dAnne-Marie_Edd%C3%A9_Paris_I_2017


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3324 - August 21, 2018, 07:32 AM
    What each respective study about?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3325 - August 21, 2018, 07:42 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 20, 2018, 11:57 PM
    Imru al-Qays? The hijra stuff?

    Nope.


    It can be a political event. R. Kerr has noted that it could be the starting of the counter attack of Heraclius in April  622. An interesting option.
    But I think to another option, which is only known by Muslim sources. Not interpreted in the way they interpreted it. An event before 632, of course.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3326 - August 21, 2018, 07:49 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 21, 2018, 07:32 AM
    What each respective study about?

    Review of Robin THE JAFNIDES. ARAB KINGS IN THE SERVICE OF BYZANTIUM,
    This collection of articles is the culmination of a symposium held in 2008 within the framework of two weeks of debates organized on the theme of "ruptures and continuities" in the early Islamic era.

    The Christian Arab tribes of Upper Mesopotamia (1st / 7th / 12th / 8th centuries),
    This research focuses on groups located at the junction of the two main components of the early Hegirian Middle East: Arabs and Christians. The former are usually identified to the conquerors as natural members of a primitively ethnocultural Umma7. The second term more surely qualifies a large majority of the inhabitants of the Fertile Crescent, who passed in the 7th century to the military and fiscal power of the former.

    Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3327 - August 21, 2018, 07:53 AM
    I also use DeepL. Altara and I have quite a few things in common, despite our disagreements, ha ha.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3328 - August 21, 2018, 10:29 AM
    Quote
    Altara and I have quite a few things in common


    Sure!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3329 - August 21, 2018, 12:01 PM
    Does Najran have anything to do with it?
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