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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3450 - August 25, 2018, 10:04 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on August 25, 2018, 09:01 PM
    2 questions :

    1) Who are the authors of the 7th century who are telling a different story ?

    2) I think Sebeos writings about Muhammad are quite different from later writings, either with its link with biblical narrative about Ismael, about the alliance with jews and the claim to the promise land and some details about his preaching. The only common ground they share is his merchant trade quote. Could you tell the names of the people who according to you tell the same story as Sebeos in the 8th c and later please ?


    1/Get the Hoyland book and find 7 th c. authors who recounts the core story of Sebeos.  A merchant knowing the story of Moses, ect.

    2/ It is the same core story : A merchant ... telling the Biblical God to his people, etc.

    3/ I'm not here to work at you place about things you're supposed to know as you are in this topic and have some assumptions. Sincerely, I've not time for that. Get the Hoyland.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3451 - August 25, 2018, 10:42 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on August 25, 2018, 07:53 PM
    that Altara says  on his own post
    So dear Altara   to this list of Islamic Scholars that  Mahgraye gave it to me in one of his posts plus on that etc.  you and he added more names..

    Now question to you is., 

    "NONE OF THOSE GUYS COULD INVESTIGATE THIS SEBEOS ISLAMIC HISTORY ..,.and say that this guy Seboes Islamic story actually was from middle of8th century Christian priest/s story ?? ..


    They even call it "pseudo" Sebeos because they know there is a problem about the date...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3452 - August 26, 2018, 12:38 AM
    Yeezevee - Of course they could investigate the story in Sebeos.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3453 - August 26, 2018, 12:50 AM
    Quote from: Altara on August 25, 2018, 10:00 PM
    Nope, they needed nothing, because it was in the 7th c. Iraq. After, they elaborate the core story, they continued to do so. Thusn they had in the 9th c. a perfect story which of course, with some arrangement " explain some verses that they didn't understand at all because they weren't involved in the birth of the Quran".
     It was then deducted by the  Arabs literati that the word "muhammad" was the Arab to whom God is speaking. They made a link between the two informations. Like all normal people. Muslim literati have scanned every word, allusion and has elaborate narratives biased of course but it is religion and an Arab "prophet"  for Arab, like Moses, etc.



    Sorry, I am confused and not sure to properly understand what you are saying, so let me summarize/ask questions :

    1) Quranics texts were being circulated in the 7th c. You seem to imply neither the arab chiefs nor the literati had anything to do with that so whether writing them nor distributing them. Is this right ?

    2) You also seem to imply that those literari started to tell the arab chiefs that those texts did mention an arab prophet. Is this right ?

    3) You seem to imply that those literari started to tell stories about this arab prophet to those arab chiefs. Is this right ?

    If your reply is yes to all 3 questions or at least to the last one, then I don't understand how they could have sold a leading prophet to the arab chiefs who knew this was totally fake and didn't care about him (no prophet is mentionned from Muawiya in the different archeological items that he left behind him).

    But I might have totally misunderstood your thesis.

    This sentence is totally non understandable for me

    Quote
    As in fact, they (the literati Huh?Huh?) do not understand the Quran, it means that it not comes from them. Therefore he should have come from scribes and literati,



    Quote
    Muhammad Hanifiyya has wrote the Quran?


    No he didn't. The Quran is not the work of a single man, and some of the texts date from centuries before.
    For me, the Quran, Muhammad, the caliphs are 3 different items that came together to give birth to islam as we know it today but they had no link between each other at the beginning.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3454 - August 26, 2018, 12:59 AM
    Quote from: Altara on August 25, 2018, 10:04 PM

    3/ I'm not here to work at you place about things you're supposed to know as you are in this topic and have some assumptions. Sincerely, I've not time for that. Get the Hoyland.


    I understand that but it is just because this is your reading of those texts so I cannot guess the texts you are referring to. I'll have another look at Seeing islam as others saw it whne I have time. It could be a clue to prove the Sebeos text is much later than thought.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3455 - August 26, 2018, 01:18 AM
    Altara - Did you just realize that Sebeos might be a later source or did you think that before it being brought up in this discussion?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3456 - August 26, 2018, 01:26 AM
    Sebeos is from AD 661, so it is only relatively early. That its testimony somewhat different is not that peculiar. For instance, two early - the Didiscaly and Thomas the Presbyter - only mention Muhammad. Sebeos is simply later and some story concerning Muhammad could have started circulating by that time. Read Shoemaker for a comparison of the sourcea and a useful analysis. He draws heavily from Hoyland.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3457 - August 26, 2018, 06:53 AM
    Quote
    Quranics texts were being circulated in the 7th c. You seem to imply neither the arab chiefs nor the literati had anything to do with that so whether writing them nor distributing them. Is this right ? You also seem to imply that those literari started to tell the arab chiefs that those texts did mention an arab prophet. Is this right ? You seem to imply that those literari started to tell stories about this arab prophet to those arab chiefs. Is this right ?


    1/2/Yes.
    3/Yes because they had this circulating texts.

    Quote
    I don't understand how they could have sold a leading prophet to the arab chiefs who knew this was totally fake and didn't care about him (no prophet is mentionned from Muawiya in the different archeological items that he left behind him).


    It's up to you to work.  Afro







  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3458 - August 26, 2018, 06:55 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 26, 2018, 01:18 AM
    Altara - Did you just realize that Sebeos might be a later source or did you think that before it being brought up in this discussion?


    The problem of the dating of Sebeos is a well know problem : that is why he is called "pseudo" Sebeos.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3459 - August 26, 2018, 07:05 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 26, 2018, 01:26 AM
    Sebeos is from AD 661, so it is only relatively early. That its testimony somewhat different is not that peculiar. For instance, two early - the Didiscaly and Thomas the Presbyter - only mention Muhammad. Sebeos is simply later and some story concerning Muhammad could have started circulating by that time. Read Shoemaker for a comparison of the sourcea and a useful analysis. He draws heavily from Hoyland.

    The Didiscaly  do not mention nor the Sebeos Mhmt nor the "prophet" of Islam of the 8th of John of Damascus//Muqatil b. Suleiman nor  the  9th c. one of Ibn Ishaq. The "prophet" of theses 4  does not announce the Messiah, etc. I've already refuted this text as a testimony  of  the "Prophet Muhammad" Nobody has give me a response   Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3460 - August 26, 2018, 09:36 AM
    Quote from: Marc S on August 26, 2018, 12:50 AM
     .......The Quran is not the work of a single man, and some of the texts date from centuries before.............

    That I must have said some 100 times in different forums dear Marc S., that is clear from reading Quran itself with   critical reading comprehension  and comparative religious texts and saying ..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3461 - August 26, 2018, 09:43 AM
    Quote from: Altara on August 26, 2018, 07:05 AM
    The Didiscaly  do not mention nor the Sebeos Mhmt nor the "prophet" of Islam of the 8th of John of Damascus//Muqatil b. Suleiman nor  the  9th c. one of Ibn Ishaq. The "prophet" of theses 4  does not announce the Messiah, etc. I've already refuted this text as a testimony  of  the "Prophet Muhammad" Nobody has give me a response   Afro

    my goodness gracious , to me it appears understanding origins of Quran texts lies  critically analyzing the stories non-Muslim  authors from 6th to 9 century along with  sira texts such as Ibn Ishaq's work.....  there is more confusion from the works of non-Muslim authors work..

    Believing Muslim faith heads / authors have straight forward story on Quran and Islam.,  and the story  is similar in every faith  from faith head story tellers/writers
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3462 - August 26, 2018, 10:02 AM
    Quote from: Altara on August 26, 2018, 06:55 AM
    The problem of the dating of Sebeos is a well know problem : that is why he is called "pseudo" Sebeos.

    Hi Altara ., I would greatly appreciate any links of authors/books/publlications (Modern and Ooold) where that word "pseudo" Sebeos  is mentioned..

      And and   WHAT ACTUALLY OLDEST TEXTS SAY ON WHAT SEBEOS SAID ON ISLAM / MUHAMMAD  (( aka Mhmt  aka m&m ))/ QURAN??

    many folks are not  clear on that  but they write hand waving statements  without any proof  as authentic historical proof of existence of Prophet of classical faith heads Islam ..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3463 - August 26, 2018, 10:08 AM
    For Marc : https://independent.academia.edu/FloMraizi
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3464 - August 26, 2018, 11:06 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on August 26, 2018, 10:02 AM
    Hi Altara ., I would greatly appreciate any links of authors/books/publlications (Modern and Ooold) where that word "pseudo" Sebeos  is mentioned..

      And and   WHAT ACTUALLY OLDEST TEXTS SAY ON WHAT SEBEOS SAID ON ISLAM / MUHAMMAD  (( aka Mhmt  aka m&m ))/ QURAN??

    many folks are not  clear on that  but they write hand waving statements  without any proof  as authentic historical proof of existence of Prophet of classical faith heads Islam ..


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebeos
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3465 - August 26, 2018, 11:23 AM
    Panel:
    Historical-Critical Method of Qur'anic Interpretation
    Emilio Gonzalez Ferrin
     1 + 1 + n = 1. Diverse authorship in the Qur'an

    "I have never read or heard a clear idea or well-founded
    hypothesis about which is the first extant and complete manuscript
    of the Qur’an, as we know it today."

    https://www.academia.edu/37168287/Ferrin_-_WOCMES_-_Historical_Critical_Method_of_Quranic_Interpretation.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3466 - August 26, 2018, 05:16 PM
    Quote from: Altara on August 26, 2018, 11:23 AM
    Panel:
    Historical-Critical Method of Qur'anic Interpretation
    Emilio Gonzalez Ferrin
     1 + 1 + n = 1. Diverse authorship in the Qur'an

    "I have never read or heard a clear idea or well-founded
    hypothesis about which is the first extant and complete manuscript
    of the Qur’an, as we know it today."

    https://www.academia.edu/37168287/Ferrin_-_WOCMES_-_Historical_Critical_Method_of_Quranic_Interpretation.pdf


    I casually read through that link of "Diverse authorship in the PRESENT  Qur'an"  now I wonder about these oold Quranic manuscripts..

    Hijazi manuscripts  Versus Kufic manuscripts

    The question is How much of the present Quran can we trace to these manuscripts?  

    1). Do they have  all all 114 surahs ??

     2) The sequence of these surahs.,  do they have same sequence as we see in the present book now??
     
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3467 - August 26, 2018, 06:10 PM
    Quote from: Altara on August 26, 2018, 10:08 AM
    For Marc : https://independent.academia.edu/FloMraizi


    Thanks. It looks like excerpts from her book but I'll give it a look.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3468 - August 26, 2018, 06:29 PM
    On completeness of Quran:

    I mentioned  before the overview table of islamic awareness: https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/hijazi.html. I am glad you bring it up again Yeez!

    Looking at table 2, immediately it is clear that the last Suras are underrepresented in frequency or are altogether absent.
    Mostly these later Surahs are found in Is. 1615 II. No dating known, no images in Corpus Coranicum.

    I miss a scholarly overview article of what this list of extant copies means concerning the completeness of the Quran from very early on. Too often I hear since most was collected by end of 1st century, it was complete from the start. That is an assumption that needs to be proven. I think the data (list of extant copies) indicate a gradual "growth"of the Quran. Statistically this skewed distribution number of extants points to a rather gradual addition to the codex imo.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3469 - August 26, 2018, 07:08 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on August 26, 2018, 06:10 PM
    Thanks. It looks like excerpts from her book but I'll give it a look.


    Some are from Leila Qadr...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3470 - August 26, 2018, 07:23 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 26, 2018, 06:29 PM
    On completeness of Quran:

    I presented before the overview table of islamic awareness: https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/hijazi.html. I am glad you bring it up again Yeez!

    Looking at table 2, immediately it is clear that the last Suras are underrepresented in frequency or are altogether absent.
    Mostly these later Surahs are found in Is. 1615 II. No dating known, no images in Corpus Coranicum.

    I miss a scholarly overview article of what this list of extant copies means concerning the completeness of the Quran from very early on. Too often I heaor since most was collected by end of 1st century, it was complete from the start. That is an assumption that needs to be proven. I think the data (list of extant copies) indicate a gradual "growth"of the Quran. Statistically this skewed distribution number of extants points to a rather gradual addition to the codex imo.

    You're right but you forget that the gradual "growth" can also correspond to the missing folios of a complete codex where the sura are ordered (grosso modo) like the Vulgate.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3471 - August 26, 2018, 07:32 PM
    Quote
    You're right but you forget that the gradual "growth" can also correspond to the missing folios of a complete codex where the sura are ordered (grosso modo) like the Vulgate.


    There is no reason why the extant frequency of these higher Surahs is so much lower than the first ones, wherever they were in the codex. But maybe because the descending order by length was decided on early on, it was easier to add the shorter ones at the end than somewhere in the middle. That's why we have a "growth"at the end, and because of the already fixed order of declining length, only the shorter types were still added.

    That doesnt mean that that material is more recent (scholars will say that the last short surahs are more archaic, but they seem to have been added later according to the list of extant manuscripts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3472 - August 26, 2018, 10:18 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 26, 2018, 06:29 PM
    On completeness of Quran:

    I presented before the overview table of islamic awareness: https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/hijazi.html. I am glad you bring it up again .................................

    I miss a scholarly overview article of what this list of extant copies means ....................

    well with reference  to   https://www.islamic-awareness.org/  it is funny to read my ooold favorite forum  ummah.com

    look at that forum visitors numbers

    Quote
    There are currently 868 users online. 10 members and 858 guests.

    Most users ever online was 7,593 at 07:26 PM on 06-04-13.


    compare that to CEMB... Cheesy Cheesy
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3473 - August 27, 2018, 12:36 AM
    I once wrote and posted something on the completeness of the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3474 - August 27, 2018, 12:38 AM
    As regards to Ferrin, there is no complete codex prior AH 300. Or the second century. One of the dates. But as noted in my brief comment (someone might dig it up), it does not follow logically from this that there was no complete Quran prior to this date.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3475 - August 27, 2018, 12:40 AM
    Altara - What do you think of Leila Qadr?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3476 - August 27, 2018, 01:44 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 27, 2018, 12:38 AM
    As regards to Ferrin, there is no complete codex prior AH 300. Or the second century. One of the dates. But as noted in my brief comment (someone might dig it up), it does not follow logically from this that there was no complete Quran prior to this date.

    AH 300 means year 912/913.,  and second century of what dear Mahgraye  ??  you mean 812/813??  that is 50 years  of error bar...

    So when do you guys think  that  Quran  became   the present book?  what year?
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3477 - August 27, 2018, 01:49 AM
    Quote from: mundi on August 26, 2018, 06:29 PM
    On completeness of Quran:

    I presented before the overview table of islamic awareness: https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/hijazi.html. I am glad you bring it up again Yeez!

     

      did you mean that you wrote/helped to write that article at islamic-awareness.org?  and what is your opinion on their web site  dear mundi?  it says..

    Quote
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/index.html

    The primary purpose of Islamic-Awareness website is to educate Muslims about the questions and issues frequently raised by the Christian Missionaries and Orientalists. You will find a variety of excellent articles and responses to missionary and orientalist writings. The material on this website is frequently updated with new articles, references and arguments. Please do check them out from time to time.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3478 - August 27, 2018, 07:53 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 27, 2018, 12:38 AM
    As regards to Ferrin, there is no complete codex prior AH 300. Or the second century. One of the dates. But as noted in my brief comment (someone might dig it up), it does not follow logically from this that there was no complete Quran prior to this date.


    It follows logically. Ferrin poses an interesting question ; if the Quranic fragments we have attests of non complete Quran  and only lacking what we think whereas there is only what we see. Those  fragmentary Quran would be the state of the matter of the specific time.
    This is linked to the trend of the theory "Quran as a layer text" holding by Dye, Segovia, Sinai, etc.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3479 - August 27, 2018, 08:07 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 27, 2018, 12:40 AM
    Altara - What do you think of Leila Qadr?

    Like Florence Mraizika, she's in the Gallez galaxy.  Gallez seems out of order now as he is sick. Both are not at his level.
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