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 Topic: Abortion is unethical

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  • Re: Abortion is unethical
     Reply #60 - April 03, 2010, 09:04 PM
    Well if you can guarantee that there is a family willing to adopt then you could be right.

    That's besides the point though. All I'm saying is that it is not always wrong to terminate a life, not all lives are equal. A fetus has no complex feelings or self-consciousness therefore it is not wrong to abort it if the woman wanted to.

    The issue is not viability. I personally consider the zygote a "life" but like I said not all lives are sacred.
  • Re: Abortion is unethical
     Reply #61 - April 03, 2010, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on April 03, 2010, 08:49 PM
    Even if it was a "living being" that's not in itself sufficient to make it wrong to abort it. That being is not rational and self-conscious enough to be considered a human being with the same rights. Therefore imo the preferences of the mother trump all. Even if there was no threat to woman's life and the fetus was 30 weeks, I still think it's not "immoral" of the mother to abort it. Because I think even a fetus 30 weeks of age is not capable of having feeling and experiencing suffering.

    I know my views are extreme, probably owing to my utilitarian streak. But as I said before I totally appreciate why other people might find my views abhorrent.


    Interesting point. I was just wondering because presumably the foetus' brain must not be developed enough or at all for it to recognise pain or suffering?

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Abortion is unethical
     Reply #62 - April 03, 2010, 11:21 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on April 03, 2010, 09:04 PM
    A fetus has no complex feelings or self-consciousness



    How can you be sure?
  • Re: Abortion is unethical
     Reply #63 - April 04, 2010, 10:04 AM
    I've read quite a lot about the subject. There are some very good articles and research papers at the British Medical Journal website where I used to have a subscription but it has expired now (I would've given you my password and username so that you could read some of the articles on the subject.).


    Anyway, this is another article (Fetus Cannot feel Pain, Expert Says from Forbes Magazine):

    http://web.archive.org/web/20070206033722/http://www.forbes.com/forbeslife/health/feeds/hscout/2006/04/14/hscout532137.html


    You have to put in mind, fetuses are not aware of their surroundings. They still don't know what life is, what air is, what water is...etc. They aren't capable of feeling happy or sad the same way you, I, or a 3 year old does.

    If to you a mere heartbeat is enough to make a life sacred then yes abortion is unethical. Obviously, I don't share that view but I completely appreciate why you think that way.
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #64 - September 19, 2013, 06:54 PM
    I thought I'd resurrect this post to share this:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/19/sex-selective-abortion-womans-right?CMP=twt_gu

    Sex selective abortion... a woman's right?

    My Mum moans about this a lot from being with a Asian man, but in the 80's Hospitals in the UK refrained from telling mothers from an South Asian background, or with a South Asian man, the sex of the baby, because they were known for aborting girls. Now there is a big culture of people having the 'Right' to do almost anything they choose, therefore would sex selective abortions be part of that?

    What do you think?
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #65 - September 19, 2013, 09:48 PM
    Silly idea. It's likely to skew the natural balance of the sexes, which is only going to be problematic in social terms. Also, we know that in reality it's only ever related to cultures that place a lower value on females, so is there any reason to pander to that?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #66 - September 19, 2013, 10:10 PM
    I'll decide if I allow an orgasm to grow into a human inside my own body. But thanks everyone for your concern.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #67 - September 19, 2013, 10:20 PM
    Education is required to change cultural norms that privilege boys over girls, men over women. Education that values both, and privileges those parents who show that they value both.

    Perhaps restricting when the fetus' sex should be disclosed may be a good idea.

    But restricting abortions themselves over this matter is not advisable. It's very easy to use this issue to bulldoze over women's reproductive rights altogether.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #68 - September 20, 2013, 02:30 AM
    Sex selection is an interesting topic for discussion. If we agree that abortion should be legal (which I do) is sex selection the next step? I always hoped it would be trying to shut off cancer genes and whatnot.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #69 - September 20, 2013, 11:47 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on September 19, 2013, 10:10 PM
    I'll decide if I allow an orgasm to grow into a human inside my own body. But thanks everyone for your concern.

    Wonderfully worded!
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #70 - September 20, 2013, 05:50 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 19, 2013, 09:48 PM
    Silly idea. It's likely to skew the natural balance of the sexes, which is only going to be problematic in social terms. Also, we know that in reality it's only ever related to cultures that place a lower value on females, so is there any reason to pander to that?


    You would think so, but there are people who are arguing for it in the UK.

    Quote from: Ishina on September 19, 2013, 10:10 PM
    I'll decide if I allow an orgasm to grow into a human inside my own body. But thanks everyone for your concern.


    The matter I posted was regarding sex selective abortions, sex is often identified at 6 months, its 3 months away from birth, it is a baby, if you have seen the size of someone's stomach at 6 months? Though people may have their debates within the early stages, I don't understand how it is debatable at a late stage. Does anyone here see it as ok to terminate a child once its born? If you do not wish to be a mother?

    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 20, 2013, 02:30 AM
    Sex selection is an interesting topic for discussion. If we agree that abortion should be legal (which I do) is sex selection the next step? I always hoped it would be trying to shut off cancer genes and whatnot.

    Hmm, Like Omanthus said though, I think its likely to effect the balance.

    I feel that a lot of things that the west criticize third world countries for are things that are later adopted as a right, yet we condemn them. Do you think that sex selection could encourage sexism and favouritism for a particular sex, I think sex selection along the  lines of "designer babies" through DNA/Cell manipulation is very different from aborting a baby for not being the gender that you prefer.
    "Make anyone believe their own knowledge and logic is insufficient and you'll have a puppet susceptible to manipulation."
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #71 - September 20, 2013, 07:43 PM
    Quote
    The matter I posted was regarding sex selective abortions, sex is often identified at 6 months, its 3 months away from birth, it is a baby, if you have seen the size of someone's stomach at 6 months? Though people may have their debates within the early stages, I don't understand how it is debatable at a late stage. Does anyone here see it as ok to terminate a child once its born? If you do not wish to be a mother?


    Well....I'm not completely convinced it should be illegal. Most brain growth and development occurs after birth, and a newborn baby still lacks self-awareness that seems essential to the status of being a person. Here's an article outlining this troubling argument in detail: http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/03/01/medethics-2011-100411.full

    Of course there are other considerations besides whether a newborn is a person or not, like social impact and whatnot.
    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #72 - September 20, 2013, 08:28 PM
    Quote from: Stuff on September 20, 2013, 07:43 PM
    Well....I'm not completely convinced it should be illegal. Most brain growth and development occurs after birth, and a newborn baby still lacks self-awareness that seems essential to the status of being a person. Here's an article outlining this troubling argument in detail: http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/03/01/medethics-2011-100411.full

    Of course there are other considerations besides whether a newborn is a person or not, like social impact and whatnot.


    Honestly, it is this kind of shit that really makes atheism look like a monstrous ideology. If you can not function with any humanity and can even endorse infanticide because "most brain growth and development occurs after birth, and a newborn baby still lacks self-awareness", then I don't know how we can disagree with those theists who say that atheists have no moral standards.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #73 - September 20, 2013, 08:45 PM
    ^^^^^^^^

    Don't essentialise atheists.

    Schoolboy error.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #74 - September 20, 2013, 08:46 PM
    BTW, the writers of that paper that seemed to advocate infanticide publicly apologized for writing it and for its impact. This academic masturbatory asshatery is partly to blame for the public's mistrust of academics and intellectuals. You don't get to just sit in your ivory towers anymore, smoking your pipes in your tenured leather armchairs, and pontificate about killing babies and other random shit, without social and economic consequences.

    This is a paper published in the same journal as a response to the Guiblini-Minerva debacle.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Abortion is unethical
     Reply #75 - September 20, 2013, 08:46 PM
    Quote from: Jedi on September 20, 2013, 08:45 PM
    ^^^^^^^^

    Don't essentialise atheists.

    Schoolboy error.


    Nobody is doing that. Go look up the definition of the word 'essentialism'.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #76 - September 20, 2013, 08:50 PM
    Quote from: allat on September 20, 2013, 08:28 PM
    Honestly, it is this kind of shit that really makes atheism look like a monstrous ideology...then I don't know how we can disagree with those theists who say that atheists have no moral standards.


    http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/essentialism

    Quote
    a belief that things have a set of characteristics which make them what they are


    Your point is?

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #77 - September 20, 2013, 08:51 PM
    Criticism, kiddo, ain't the same thing as essentialism.

    Now don't go around acting like Muslims who can't handle any criticism of Islam.

    I'm an atheist.

    I can and will criticize atheism and atheists whenever and however I want to.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #78 - September 20, 2013, 08:57 PM
    A criticism can contain an element of essentialisation.

    The statement that was mentioned essentialised atheists for it characterised atheists with the particular view that was posted. Atheists come in sorts of shapes and sizes, colours and beliefs.

    Quote
    kiddo


    Charming.

    Quote
    Now don't go around acting like Muslims who can't handle any criticism of Islam.


    What in the world are you talking about?

    Quote
    I'm an atheist.


    irrelevant since your atheism was neither in question nor was it the subject of the conversation.

    Quote
    I can and will criticize atheism and atheists whenever and however I want to.


    The reason why you feel the need to mention this is beyond me. All the best.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #79 - September 20, 2013, 08:59 PM
    Ok. All the best to you too.  Roll Eyes

    Now, back to the atheists trying to make a 'logical' case for infanticide....
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #80 - September 20, 2013, 09:01 PM
     Afro
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #81 - September 20, 2013, 09:10 PM
    Quote from: allat on September 20, 2013, 08:46 PM
    BTW, the writers of that paper that seemed to advocate infanticide publicly apologized for writing it and for its impact.


    Wow at that.

    Good posts allat.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #82 - September 20, 2013, 09:12 PM
    Just to clarify: I'm not at all comfortable with the idea of infanticide, and was also disgusted and angry when I first learned of the article. Still, I thought it raised some valid points. I think the objection based on it eroding the value/dignity of human life is good, though it could also be applied to regular abortion. Gonna read the rest of that response later.
    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #83 - September 20, 2013, 09:18 PM
    Quote from: Stuff on September 20, 2013, 09:12 PM
    though it could also be applied to regular abortion.


    Except perhaps for very late term abortions, No It Cannot. A fetus is a physical part of the body of the woman in whom it exists. A baby is not.

     
    Quote from: Stuff on September 20, 2013, 09:12 PM
    Gonna read the rest of that response later.


    Please do.

    Also, here's Kenan Malik's response to this whole snafu (highly recommend this as he is also an exmuslim atheist and a well respected writer).
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #84 - September 20, 2013, 09:54 PM
    Quote from: allat on September 20, 2013, 09:18 PM
    Except perhaps for very late term abortions, No It Cannot.

    Yes, it can. That's why it has been used: because it can be. Whether you accept its use is another matter, but obviously some people do. I think most people feel that while abortion should be permissible it is not actually "a good thing", and is merely the lesser of two evils. That implies there is something "wrong" with it. Some people seem to think that one of the things that is wrong with it is that it devalues human life. This is usually countered by inisisting that the fetus is in some way "not really human".

    Quote
    A fetus is a physical part of the body of the woman in whom it exists. A baby is not.

    Like that. grin12
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #85 - September 20, 2013, 09:59 PM
    Which part are you denying, that a fetus is a physical part of a woman's body, or that a baby is not?

    Quote from: osmanthus on September 20, 2013, 09:54 PM
    Some people seem to think that one of the things that is wrong with it is that it devalues human life.


    Nobody who is pro-choice and in their right minds (i.e. not just masturbating in academic circle jerks) actually believes that abortion is a 'good thing' in and of itself.

    However, the removal of the right of women to control their own bodies is what devalues human life. Unless, of course, women don't count as humans.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #86 - September 20, 2013, 10:04 PM
    Allat...

     Cry I watched a minute of that 'earthlings' documentary and it broke my heart.  Cry

    Thank you very fucking much for the guilt trip!  finmad
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #87 - September 20, 2013, 10:05 PM
    Quote from: allat on September 20, 2013, 08:28 PM
    Honestly, it is this kind of shit that really makes atheism look like a monstrous ideology. If you can not function with any humanity and can even endorse infanticide because "most brain growth and development occurs after birth, and a newborn baby still lacks self-awareness", then I don't know how we can disagree with those theists who say that atheists have no moral standards.

    Yes but, playing Evil Fucker just for comparison, the arguments for abortion come down to the fetus not being a person because it's not developed enough to be a person.

    Sure, you have the woman's right to control her own body too, but that still relies on the fetus not being a person. In jurisdictions where the fetus is regarded as a person, abortion is legally equivalent to murder.

    So, the only real difference is that once born, the baby can survive without a direct physical connection to the mother.

    Although I don't agree with the arguments for making abortion illegal, primarily for practical reasons, I can see their logic.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #88 - September 20, 2013, 10:08 PM
    Quote from: allat on September 20, 2013, 09:59 PM
    Which part are you denying, that a fetus is a physical part of a woman's body, or that a baby is not?

    I'm not denying either of those. Why would you think I was? I was simply pointing out that you were relying on the claim that the fetus is "not really human". I happen to think that claim is supportable, but I can see why some people may not.


    Quote
    However, the removal of the right of women to control their own bodies is what devalues human life. Unless, of course, women don't count as humans.

    Well obviously some people, often religious fundies, don't really count women as humans.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Abortion is unethical
     Reply #89 - September 20, 2013, 10:16 PM
    Quote
    Except perhaps for very late term abortions, No It Cannot. A fetus is a physical part of the body of the woman in whom it exists. A baby is not.


    Sure it can. You may not consider a fetus as separate human being, but many do. To many people, any abortion is an affront to the value and dignity of human life. The degree of this value-eroding effect is obviously smaller when killing a hidden fetus, but it's still there.

    Quote
    Please do.

    Also, here's Kenan Malik's response to this whole snafu (highly recommend this as he is also an exmuslim atheist and a well respected writer).


    Good read.

    Yeah, infanticide is probably a bad idea. Except, perhaps, in cases where there's some debilitating disability involved.
    Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
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