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 Topic: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam

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  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #90 - August 14, 2009, 07:12 AM
    Quote from: lane4 on August 14, 2009, 01:00 AM
    Do these guys (Green, NK, HY, et al) make their living by giving lectures?  Does Islam support them?  I am familiar w/almost all the people being referred to by watching countless hours of youtube videos but always wondered how they make their living.


    btw just fyi AbduRahim Green is different from HY NK and AHM and other Sufi orientated speakers - AbduRahim Green is a Salafi and the others would look down at him.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #91 - August 14, 2009, 08:49 AM
    Abdur Raheem Green used to be fairly hardcore in the early 90's. I think he might have toned down a bit since.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #92 - August 14, 2009, 11:22 AM
    thats could just be down to the government getting tighter on hate speech, rather than any change in his opinions
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #93 - August 14, 2009, 12:02 PM
    I think it's more than just being more 'careful'. I would say there has been a definite change of wind - many Muslims who were Salafi - or at least Salafi influenced - have gradually moderated their views. (Though that could also simply be the phenomena know as Salafi-burnout.)
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #94 - August 14, 2009, 12:06 PM
    Yeah I've heard of that term. I used to think that salafi's robbed the religion of its spirituality.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #95 - August 14, 2009, 12:13 PM
    Where does Yusuf Islam stand these days Hassan, have you tried a discussion with him?
    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #96 - August 14, 2009, 12:26 PM
    Quote from: 20yearstoolong on August 14, 2009, 12:06 PM
    Yeah I've heard of that term. I used to think that salafi's robbed the religion of its spirituality.


    I did too and although I still think it is incorrect to say they represent "True Islam" (They can be just as 'selective' in their use of the original texts as Sufis, moderates etc... ) they definitely can't be dismissed as 'heretics' as some imply and in some cases are (imho) closer to what Muhammad intended/preached. (Even though that itself varied  grin12 )
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #97 - August 14, 2009, 12:29 PM
    Quote from: pakman on August 14, 2009, 12:13 PM
    Where does Yusuf Islam stand these days Hassan, have you tried a discussion with him?


    I haven't seen or spoken to him since leaving Islamia School in early 2006. I know he had been moderating his views for some time, though.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #98 - August 14, 2009, 12:36 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on August 14, 2009, 12:02 PM
    I think it's more than just being more 'careful'. I would say there has been a definite change of wind - many Muslims who were Salafi - or at least Salafi influenced - have gradually moderated their views. (Though that could also simply be the phenomena know as Salafi-burnout.)

    Could it be that they audience has changed since 9/11 and the tube bombings, and they are reluctantly having to reflect this change too or face being outcast?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #99 - August 14, 2009, 12:37 PM
    Well, I think he's been in the charts once or twice. I saw him strumming the guitar as well once or twice on tv. HY was in the audience!
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #100 - September 25, 2009, 06:59 AM
    Quote from: pakman on August 14, 2009, 12:13 PM
    Where does Yusuf Islam stand these days Hassan, have you tried a discussion with him?





    Now there's one discussion I'd love to hear. Unfortunately though, will never happen.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #101 - December 27, 2010, 06:07 AM
    I know I am bumping up a almost two year old thread and I am nowhere near given up on Islam but I am getting there. I asked the following question to Hamza Yusuf on his "blog" and this is the reply I got:

    -----
    Since the title of the post is titled: How do we respond? How do we respond to DNA, to germ theory, to dinosaurs to science to evolution which is no longer a theory? How do we respond to all this? I read 'god is not Great' by Hitchens and he makes a very persuasive argument. Where is the Muslim response other than just lets co-exist with smiles.

    Response:
    How do I respond to your post? Man, we've got our work cut out for us. All these need study and understanding in light of our agreed upon creedal points of faith. As for Hitchens, I also read his book and did not find it at all persuasive. I still think God is great. If you mean by persuasive that he makes a good case for the madness of men, then I agree, but the Qur'an makes a far better one than Hitchens could ever make. By the way, I have a soft spot for Hitchens and have read his book on Paine, Jefferson, and Orwell; I feel sorry for him. His personal life is tragic, and he has become a linguistic Ronin offering his services to the highest bidder. Logical for an idealist who became a cynic. Salaams,
    HY
    -----

    These are the types of answers that leave me pulling my hair.
    I did wudu before entering this website.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #102 - December 27, 2010, 07:10 AM
    Quote from: solroger on December 27, 2010, 06:07 AM

    Response:
    How do I respond to your post? Man, we've got our work cut out for us. All these need study and understanding in light of our agreed upon creedal points of faith. As for Hitchens, I also read his book and did not find it at all persuasive. I still think God is great. If you mean by persuasive that he makes a good case for the madness of men, then I agree, but the Qur'an makes a far better one than Hitchens could ever make. By the way, I have a soft spot for Hitchens and have read his book on Paine, Jefferson, and Orwell; I feel sorry for him. His personal life is tragic, and he has become a linguistic Ronin offering his services to the highest bidder. Logical for an idealist who became a cynic. Salaams,
    HY


    1) He disregarded the entire core of your comment and his way around it made little (if any) sense.
    "All these need study and understanding in light of our agreed upon creedal points of faith"

    Which means what exactly? Does he mean his faith (religion) obligates him to understand the subject? Then why has he still not accomplished it himself after all these years? There doesn't seem to be a statement that he will commit himself to it now either,
    Or does he mean 'faith' in a literal sense? If so, is he justifying a 'drowning man fallacy' (where every possible case scenario points to god, regardless of how it turns out) ?
    Seeing as you can't both understand something AND have faith in its plausability, it seems to be the only real possibility in this situation.


    2) After that, his statements are asserted but not justified at all.
    He doesn't go into any sort of detail (or even an example) of Why Hitchens book doesn't stand up to the Quran or how the Quran is actually providing a better position.
    Essentially, he's not said anything.

    3) The remaining was just an Ad-hom and 'Poisoning the well' logical fallacy.

    Conclusion: That was a non-response,
    Unfortunately, I rarely come across any better... You would probably be better off talking to some random guy on youtube, you honestly get more out of it. (as sad as that is)
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #103 - December 27, 2010, 10:51 AM
    Quote
    I feel sorry for him. His personal life is tragic, and he has become a linguistic Ronin offering his services to the highest bidder. Logical for an idealist who became a cynic. Salaams,

     
    He has pimped his for an invisible Allah! No wonder he doesn't bother with the niceties of a proof. A proof cannot and shouldn't include the phrase "I think" 

    CONCLUSION: Irreversible damage to the brain due to constant bombardment of delusions suspected. Comprehensive psychiatric evaluation recommended immediately.

    Quote
    If so, is he justifying a 'drowning man fallacy' (where every possible case scenario points to god, regardless of how it turns out) ?


    Lmao Supercilious loonies filling people's heads with sheer nonsense!


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #104 - December 27, 2010, 11:31 AM
    You know, I used to follow HY regularly and had a huge amount of respect for him. During the late nineties and the early part of this decade, his talks and articles made a refreshing change to the fundie rhetoric spewed out by the salafi's and the heterodoxy spun by the Hizb. What was great about him, was that he was articulate and well read. There was a whole load of speakers and scholars who were thrust into the limelight of the same line of thinking. People like Tim Winters and Nuh Keller.

    All that Hamza has done above crudely speaking, is completely ignore what you have said and try to throw you off guard by saying that he has read Hitchens and his account of Orwell etc. To be fair, Hitchens might not be somebody I would have mentioned personally when speaking to Hamza. Not because there is anything wrong with Hitchens, but because Hamza does require a slightly more sophisticated person. Although Hitchens book is good. It's target (as far as I could tell) was religion and not theology.

    Regardless though, the points you have raised require an answer. Simply stating creedal points and cross referencing with scientific findings tells us nothing. All he has done is dogmatically stuck to his faith and in a nutshell stated that anything that doesn't contradict the Quran can be kept and the rest can be discarded. I have heard him in a talk say that people shouldn't scoff at evolution if they know nothing about biology. It should be seriously and those points that disagree with the Quran should be discarded and everything can be kept. Namely, the creation of Adam and Eve is "Haq" and anything that contradicts it should be thrown out. The thing is, there really is no justification if we get down to the nuts and bolts of it, except that the Quran says so.

    I know he has lamented that theology in Islam has been totally neglected, to which I agree with him. I would add to that, that this is one of the reasons why Christian theologians have moved on ahead (no matter how absurd), whereas the Muslims have dogmatically stuck to Ashari and Mathuridi creedal formulations.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #105 - December 27, 2010, 12:41 PM
    http://www.psychological-warfare.com/misdirection.html

    Quote
    The concept of misdirection involves distracting someone from a certain topic or fact with another. The brilliant part about using misdirection is that it's incredibly easy and it's amazing how distractible we are as human beings.


    Quote
    The Trojan horse - here you can make people think you want one thing when really you want another, just like when a sales person rings you up and says "I'm not trying to sell you anything" or "could you please answer a couple of questions for me?" You think, "sure I'll hear this guy out," and then bam! They hit you with the sales techniques.


    Quote
    The art of misdirection is really about confusion. When you[meaning the dawah merchants in our context!] know enough techniques and tricks, you can never get cornered again.



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #106 - December 27, 2010, 02:14 PM
    Hamza Yusuf may say some silly things from time to time, but I don't think he's a genuinely bad person, just full of hot air.

    Hamza Tzortzis, on the other hand; a virulent little Islamist who opposes secularism as much as any Mawdudi-worshipping HT zealot. I still don't know why this man is invited to speak and debate at some of the world's most prestigious insititutions since he can  scarcely construct a coherent or valid syllogism.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOw4Mk1QK84

    Some amusingly retarded quotes from the above:

    "The reason for the failure of secularism stems from the incorrectness of the secular doctrine and aqeedah itself."

    "Secularism emerged as a negative reaction to the oppression of the Church, but how can a correct doctrine be established as a reaction to an historical accident or historical environment? That would mean, if the environment no longer exists, therefore, the doctrine becomes invalidated."

    According to this 'logic,' the Abolitionist movement and its ideals were fundamentally flawed because they were a reaction to a historical situation.  wacko

    "However, we as Muslims reject the idea of freedom of speech, and even of the idea of freedom, and we see under the Khilafa when people used to engage in a positive way, this idea of freedom was redundant, it was unnecessary"
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #107 - December 27, 2010, 03:50 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on December 27, 2010, 02:14 PM
    "The reason for the failure of secularism stems from the incorrectness of the secular doctrine and aqeedah itself."

    What failure?

    Everything's going to be fine.
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #108 - December 27, 2010, 04:45 PM
    My head is spinning. Have I been lied to all this time? The thing about Hamza is that I have modeled my whole life around him to the tee.
    I did wudu before entering this website.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #109 - December 27, 2010, 05:01 PM
    Quote from: solroger on December 27, 2010, 06:07 AM
    I know I am bumping up a almost two year old thread and I am nowhere near given up on Islam but I am getting there. I asked the following question to Hamza Yusuf on his "blog" and this is the reply I got:

    -----
    Since the title of the post is titled: How do we respond? How do we respond to DNA, to germ theory, to dinosaurs to science to evolution which is no longer a theory? How do we respond to all this? I read 'god is not Great' by Hitchens and he makes a very persuasive argument. Where is the Muslim response other than just lets co-exist with smiles.

    You asked a reasonable question - the kind of question that frustrated me as a Muslim.  Now I realise we cant blame Muslims for not providing 'reasonable' answers - if there were any they would provide them in an instant.  The reality is that there are none.  It was just one humungous pipe dream.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #110 - December 27, 2010, 05:08 PM
    I thank you for the recent post- this is/was in interesting threat.
    El bien mas preciado / es la libertad
    hay que defenderla / con fe y valor.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #111 - December 27, 2010, 05:17 PM
    Quote from: solroger on December 27, 2010, 04:45 PM
    My head is spinning. Have I been lied to all this time? The thing about Hamza is that I have modeled my whole life around him to the tee.

    btw do you fancy doing an introduction? 
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #112 - December 27, 2010, 05:25 PM
    Quote from: solroger on December 27, 2010, 04:45 PM
    My head is spinning. Have I been lied to all this time? The thing about Hamza is that I have modeled my whole life around him to the tee.


    It's not that you've been lied too per-se, its that Hamza (as with all theistic figure heads) simply don't have the answers.
    Despite what most people along his lines say, there is a glaring contradiction between the actuality of a situation and the ideals that people like Hamza profess, All they can do in the long-term is to pad-out a vague response that doesn't really answer anything or disregard the issue, which is exactly what he did with his response to you.

    Like people above have said, It's not necessarily that he's a bad guy or a liar, more of a case that he doesn't really have a leg to stand on when confronted with cold hard facts, but he has to present the image that he does.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #113 - December 27, 2010, 05:31 PM
    Quote from: solroger on December 27, 2010, 06:07 AM
    I know I am bumping up a almost two year old thread and I am nowhere near given up on Islam but I am getting there. I asked the following question to Hamza Yusuf on his "blog" and this is the reply I got:

    -----
    Since the title of the post is titled: How do we respond? How do we respond to DNA, to germ theory, to dinosaurs to science to evolution which is no longer a theory? How do we respond to all this? I read 'god is not Great' by Hitchens and he makes a very persuasive argument. Where is the Muslim response other than just lets co-exist with smiles.

    Response:
    How do I respond to your post? Man, we've got our work cut out for us. All these need study and understanding in light of our agreed upon creedal points of faith. As for Hitchens, I also read his book and did not find it at all persuasive. I still think God is great. If you mean by persuasive that he makes a good case for the madness of men, then I agree, but the Qur'an makes a far better one than Hitchens could ever make. By the way, I have a soft spot for Hitchens and have read his book on Paine, Jefferson, and Orwell; I feel sorry for him. His personal life is tragic, and he has become a linguistic Ronin offering his services to the highest bidder. Logical for an idealist who became a cynic. Salaams,
    HY
    -----

    These are the types of answers that leave me pulling my hair.



    What a cop-out response from a typical convert-placed-on-a-pedestal. What annoys me more than anything is that these converts, Yusuf, Tzortis, Green, can potentially draw audiences as large as Hitchens but without anything near his level of credibility. What they have is this: confirmation-bias for the Muslim audience that yes, they are right and everything else is wrong. Enter the cute conversion story, the perfect recitation of Qur'an that makes Muslims weep that they are born-Muslims and cannot recite so well, and voila, a nice wholesome family day out.

    His response has all the ingredients of a typical cop-out response:

    1) The opening "your question is so outrageous I don't really know what to say (astagfirullah)"
    2) The compulsory "we (meaning YOU) need to study more Islam first before you can even think about thinking about asking such outrageous questions (insert: fiqh, tawheed, etc)
    3) The sheikh adding that he has had all the doubts you have had but reached his own conclusion and therefore you should too (but he will never delve into further detail)
    4) Closing with a subtle personal attack on the source of your doubts (Hitchens)

    Don't model your life on anyone mate, particularly not charlatans like these.  Smiley



  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #114 - December 27, 2010, 05:52 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on December 27, 2010, 05:17 PM
    btw do you fancy doing an introduction? 


    Well live in Canada. I am married and I have three kids. I have done all the hoopla that would brand me as good pious Muslim.

    I have never asked the question 'why?' ever. My whole life can be summed as like an open kettle in which anything can be poured in.

    Ironically, all these doubts started because of Hamza Yusuf. He mentioned Hitchens in one of his talks and just curiosity led me to purchase 'god is not great'. Since then, I have been reading Jared Diamond, Dawkins and Hawking.

    For many many years I attended a zikr group. One who's leader was a bit of a wacko now that I think about it. I really adored this man. But I remember asking him about science way in the beginning and just brushed it off and because I admired this person so much I came to dislike science because of that. He also dismissed the moon landing, he still hasn't come to terms with germs LOL. I had a really bad cold one day and told him I will not be attending the zikr out of fear that other people will get sick, he told me we don't believe in such things.

    He also believes in dead people attending these zikr gatherings but only the elite can see them. He believes the Prophet is present during 'yaa nabi salaam'.

    My life so far has been one ritualistic blood bath. I wake up and do wudu. I pray on time. Out of fear really. Before I go to bed I do wudu. All the zakat and the charity. Today for example I didn't do wudu and to tell you the truth it felt liberating but I am still scared shitless.
    I did wudu before entering this website.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #115 - December 27, 2010, 06:01 PM
    Interesting story solroger, and welcome to the forums.

    Quote from: solroger on December 27, 2010, 05:52 PM
    Today for example I didn't do wudu and to tell you the truth it felt liberating but I am still scared shitless.


    Good for you! It is scary at first - you imagine Allah giving you a disapproving look from on high and shaking his head... after awhile that imaginary person disappears and along with him, the fear, and with that comes true liberation.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #116 - December 27, 2010, 06:14 PM
    Quote
    For many many years I attended a zikr group. One who's leader was a bit of a wacko now that I think about it. I really adored this man. But I remember asking him about science way in the beginning and just brushed it off and because I admired this person so much I came to dislike science because of that. He also dismissed the moon landing, he still hasn't come to terms with germs LOL. I had a really bad cold one day and told him I will not be attending the zikr out of fear that other people will get sick, he told me we don't believe in such things.

     Cheesy

    To be fair, most Muslims probably do accept the moon landings and germ theory.

    The leader of your dhikr group sounds like a really backwards person following a 7th century religion. Remember, Islam was created at a time when people didn't know about germs and assumed that illnesses are punishments from God. Your friend still believes that. lol.
    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #117 - December 27, 2010, 06:25 PM
    Quote from: solroger on December 27, 2010, 06:07 AM
    I know I am bumping up a almost two year old thread and I am nowhere near given up on Islam but I am getting there. I asked the following question to Hamza Yusuf on his "blog" and this is the reply I got:


    These are the types of answers that leave me pulling my hair.


    welcome to cemb solroger.,   I didn't know Mark Hanson  aka Hamza Yusuf  answers the questions on web., Could you please give link to that q&a session..

    Bertrand Russell  said  in one his books
    Quote
    " Misfortunes of human beings may fall in to two  categories: First, those inflicted by the non-human environment and, second, those inflicted by other people


    Characters like  Hamza Yusuf fall in to 2nd category, they are born to inflict  Misfortunes on other human beings by their stupidity. People like him had a freedom to be stupid and be stupid through out their  life as they come from  so-called enlightened  western society unlike those who are born in to  stupidity for no fault of theirs.  
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #118 - December 27, 2010, 06:54 PM
    Here is the link to the blog post I mentioned above. He replies to the comments sometimes:

    http://sandalaproductions.com/Blog/21-how-do-we-respond-part-3.aspx
    I did wudu before entering this website.
  • Re: Hamza Yusuf: Secularism, the Greatest Danger Facing Islam
     Reply #119 - December 27, 2010, 06:58 PM
    Hamza is at RIS in Toronto right now. From what I hear he still walks around with his entourage and three body guards. His book signing session reminds of the soup nazi Seinfeld episode. He stays in five star hotels. He flies first class. He brings his whole family down (all paid for). He will not pray with the masses. He loves the attention. He loves being the center and focal point of this conference. He probably hates going back home where everyone treats him like an equal.
    I did wudu before entering this website.
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