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Theme Changer

 Topic: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind

 (Read 20626 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #60 - April 19, 2009, 05:30 PM

    Ayesha Ahmed is not the only idiot who is doing the nonsense, there are characters like Ali Sina, ibn Warraq, Ibn Barracks, Kamran Mirza, Abul Kasem, Robert Spencer, Amil Amani and many other goons.


    I don't understand what exactly is your problem with Ayesha Ahmed writing "child
    Didn't you write this?
    Yes, a girl who has not reached puberty, is a child.


    So Ayesha Ahmed inserted child for a girl who hasn't reached puberty, is it illegal\immoral\insulting to call a child a child?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #61 - April 20, 2009, 12:00 AM

    Quote from: BMZ
    No, it is not true. Look at some good translations and tell me if you see that:

    There are many good examples where Koran uses Lam to negate the past exclusively, for now Sura Ikhlas verse 3 is the easiest.

    لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ

    Possibly translations are:

    • Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten.
    • He does not beget. Nor is He begotten. (Present tense - doesn't make sense)
    • Never shall He beget. Nor shall He be begotten. (Future tense - again, doesn't make sense)

    Using Lam as anything but past tense involves the illogical figure of denying that Allah is, or will be, born. We know he's not a child - and he can't be born in the future if he currently exists.

    Now using logic alone we can conclude that the Lam particle is for negation of the past tense... We needn't even touch on the fact that the words yoolad (يُولَدْ) and yalid (يَلِدْ) are past tense forms of the verb Walada, which should clear up any doubt in the matter.

    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #62 - April 20, 2009, 03:39 AM


    I don't understand what exactly is your problem with Ayesha Ahmed writing "child".


    Have you read Surah 65 and fully understood it? If you have, then let me know and I will explain. Here are some questions that will help you understand the Surah:

    1. What is the topic discussed in Surah 65?

    2. Does it talk about divorcing a child or children?

    3. Does it tell how to marry a child?

    Here is a helpful tip:

    Take a look at the part of the first verse in the beginning, which says,  إِذَا طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاء and it means, "When you divorce women" but the perverts like Ali Sina, Ayesha Ahmed, Robert Spencer and others with typical paralysed kafir minds, try to show that marrying a child is being discussed here.  Cheesy

    Let me know if you have understood and I will write more later. Time for a snack.

    Regarding the next part of your comment, "is it illegal\immoral\insulting to call a child a child?", I must say that it is not.

    But it is extremely immoral, unethical and wrong of these polemic sex perverts, having a paralysed Kafir mind, to add the word "child" in the verse, when a child is not at all being discussed in there.

    BMZ

  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #63 - April 20, 2009, 03:50 AM

    Is he maybe trying to infer that such verse is talking about adult women who, for some pathology, have never menstruated?
    :\



    I don't think the Sicko, I mean Ayesha Ahmed understands that. If a husband had married a woman who had lost her periods and had a menopause very early, then she will be automatically covered under the first clause of the verse.

    BMZ

    And all the sicko Muslims who came up with equivalent translations interpretations as well?


    I would be glad to see you doing a translation as a kafir, if you can.

    BMZ
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #64 - April 20, 2009, 08:48 AM

    Is he maybe trying to infer that such verse is talking about adult women who, for some pathology, have never menstruated?
    :\



    I don't think the Sicko, I mean Ayesha Ahmed understands that. If a husband had married a woman who had lost her periods and had a menopause very early, then she will be automatically covered under the first clause of the verse.

    BMZ

    And all the sicko Muslims who came up with equivalent translations interpretations as well?


    I would be glad to see you doing a translation as a kafir, if you can.

    BMZ

    He could try, but then you would not accept it - thats why we need a reliable 3rd party source and not one who has less knowledge pointlessly making their own translations to suit

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #65 - April 20, 2009, 09:05 AM

    Well BMZ has provided a list of which English translations he regards as accurate for the purpose of discussing 65:4.

    I can consider Yusuf Ali, Asad, Arberry, Pickthall, Rodwell, even George Sale okay for this particular verse. 

    Cheers
    BMZ


    So we can use any or all of those for this thread. BMZ will  not dispute the accuracy of those translations as he has quite clearly stated that he accepts them.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #66 - April 20, 2009, 09:18 AM

    __________________________

    Sorry for butting in,

    BMZ, if you want to believe Quran does not sanction pre-pubescent marriage you can believe so. It is your prerogative. But let me say, Quranic verses and majority of Islamic scholars of the past and present do not agree with you.

    You asked this to Astaghfirallah.

    Quote
    Can you quote me plenty of mufassireens to show the word child  in their explanations?


    I remember you challenging me with the same in FFI. I met your challenge but you turned a blind eye then. I see you are still the same:

    And to answer your question: Yes, plenty of Mufassireen have stated the ?Nisa? mentioned in 65:4 includes pre-pubescent girls too. Few of those plenty:

    Ibn Kathir, Two Jalals, Tabari, Zamaqshari, Tabrasi, Al-Razi, Qurtubi, Al-Shoukani, Abu Hayyan.

    Nineteenth century scholars like Abul A?la Maududi and Sheikh Saleh Al-Utaymeen.

    [I am sure you know this but you still want to believe in something that you like to believe.]

    Next: You asked the following questions to Rashna:

    Quote
    1. What is the topic discussed in Surah 65?

    2. Does it talk about divorcing a child or children?

    3. Does it tell how to marry a child?


    1. Quran Surah 65 is named as Divorce which is only possible after Marriage.
    2. Yes, in verse 65:4, we see Iddah (waiting period) prescribed for pre-pubescent girls too which means marrying and divorcing children is allowed.
    3. There is no command in Quran as ?One should marry a pre-pubescent girl?. But since the verse 65:4 prescribes Iddah (waiting period) for pre-pubescent girls, we have to conclude Quran does not have any problem in marrying and divorcing a child.

    Quote from: BMZ
    Take a look at the part of the first verse in the beginning, which says, إِذَا طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاء and it means, "When you divorce women" but the perverts like Ali Sina, Ayesha Ahmed, Robert Spencer and others with typical paralysed kafir minds, try to show that marrying a child is being discussed here.


    It is not perverts (according to you LOL) say ?NISA? means ?Females?. Quran testifies it. See chapter 4:127:
    They ask thy instruction concerning the women say: Allah doth instruct you about them: And (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book, concerning the orphans of women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed, and yet whom ye desire to marry, as also concerning the children who are weak and oppressed: that ye stand firm for justice to orphans. There is not a good deed which ye do, but Allah is well-acquainted therewith.[Yousuf Ali]

    In the above verse ?Nisa? = ?Women? is used to signify ?Yatama? = ?Orphans? too. Besides, in various other places of Quran the term ?Nisa? is used while mentioning females in general, not grown up women in particular.

    But as I said earlier, you can believe Quran does not sanction child marriage if you can overlook these facts.

    Cheers
    KF
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #67 - April 20, 2009, 10:02 AM

    Have you read Surah 65 and fully understood it? If you have, then let me know and I will explain. Here are some questions that will help you understand the Surah:

    1. What is the topic discussed in Surah 65?

    2. Does it talk about divorcing a child or children?

    3. Does it tell how to marry a child?

    Here is a helpful tip:

    Take a look at the part of the first verse in the beginning, which says,  إِذَا طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاء and it means, "When you divorce women" but the perverts like Ali Sina, Ayesha Ahmed, Robert Spencer and others with typical paralysed kafir minds, try to show that marrying a child is being discussed here.  Cheesy

    Let me know if you have understood and I will write more later. Time for a snack.

    Regarding the next part of your comment, "is it illegal\immoral\insulting to call a child a child?", I must say that it is not.

    But it is extremely immoral, unethical and wrong of these polemic sex perverts, having a paralysed Kafir mind, to add the word "child" in the verse, when a child is not at all being discussed in there.



    Thanks BMZ!

    1) Topic being discussed in Surah 65? Divorce.

    2) Does it talk about divorcing a child or children? Nope, it doesn't mention the word "child". However, the women who haven't had their menses are considered children by us, & by you as you've yourself stated. Since it talks about divorcing such girls who haven't had their menses, even if it doesn't mention child, its not wrong to mention child.

    3) It talks about divorce, & there can't be a divorce without a marriage, can there? So the fact that it talks about divorcing a girl who hasn't menstruated shows that such a girl was married sometime in the past.

    As for why the verse speaks of "women" & not child, the paralyzed Kafir mind may consider a girl who hasn't menstruated a child, unfortunately enlightened Muslim minds might not think so, thats' why http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=3980.0  grin12

    BTW, when will the Holocaust debate begin?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #68 - April 20, 2009, 10:27 AM

    I can consider Yusuf Ali, Asad, Arberry, Pickthall, Rodwell, even George Sale okay for this particular verse. 


    This is the Rodwell Translation of the Holy Quran

    As to such of your wives as have no hope of the recurrence of their times, if ye have doubts in regard to them, then reckon three months, and let the same be the term of those who have not yet had them. And as to those who are with child, their period shall be until they are delivered of their burden. God will make His command easy to him who feareth Him.

    Not yet had menses means according to both us & you- a child! Smiley

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #69 - April 20, 2009, 10:36 AM

    There you go. Nailed it nicely. Now watch the shenanigans start. Grin

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #70 - April 20, 2009, 10:53 AM

    Well done Rashna - I hope BMZ will step to the mark, and accept he is wrong which will at least prove he is a honest man.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #71 - April 20, 2009, 11:51 AM

    I don't know if anybody has quoted IBN Kathir's tafsir on this. It's very interesting.

    http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=65&tid=54127
    Quote
    (divorce them at their `Iddah), "The `Iddah is made up of clean- liness and the menstrual period.'' So he divorces her while it is clear that she is pregnant, or he does not due to having sex, or since he does not know if she is pregnant or not. This is why the scholars said that there are two types of divorce, one that conforms to the Sunnah and another innovated. The divorce that conforms to the Sunnah is one where the husband pronounces one divorce to his wife when she is not having her menses and without having had sexual intercourse with her after the menses ended. One could divorce his wife when it is clear that she is pregnant. As for the innovated divorce, it occurs when one divorces his wife when she is having her menses, or after the menses ends, has sexual intercourse with her and then divorces her, even though he does not know if she became pregnant or not. There is a third type of divorce, which is neither a Sunnah nor an innovation where one divorces a young wife who has not begun to have menses, the wife who is beyond the age of having menses, and divorcing one's wife before the marriage was consummated.

  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #72 - April 20, 2009, 11:56 AM

    Well BMZ has provided a list of which English translations he regards as accurate for the purpose of discussing 65:4.

    I can consider Yusuf Ali, Asad, Arberry, Pickthall, Rodwell, even George Sale okay for this particular verse. 

    Cheers
    BMZ


    So we can use any or all of those for this thread. BMZ will  not dispute the accuracy of those translations as he has quite clearly stated that he accepts them.



    Bold emphasis in above is mine. The permission has been given for that specific verse (65:4) only.  However, I can allow the translation of Surah 65 by only those translators, whom I mentioned.

    BMZ
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #73 - April 20, 2009, 12:11 PM

    __________________________

    Sorry for butting in,

    BMZ, if you want to believe Quran does not sanction pre-pubescent marriage you can believe so. It is your prerogative. But let me say, Quranic verses and majority of Islamic scholars of the past and present do not agree with you.

    You asked this to Astaghfirallah.

    Quote
    Can you quote me plenty of mufassireens to show the word child  in their explanations?


    I remember you challenging me with the same in FFI. I met your challenge but you turned a blind eye then. I see you are still the same:

    And to answer your question: Yes, plenty of Mufassireen have stated the ?Nisa? mentioned in 65:4 includes pre-pubescent girls too. Few of those plenty:

    Ibn Kathir, Two Jalals, Tabari, Zamaqshari, Tabrasi, Al-Razi, Qurtubi, Al-Shoukani, Abu Hayyan.

    Nineteenth century scholars like Abul A?la Maududi and Sheikh Saleh Al-Utaymeen.

    [I am sure you know this but you still want to believe in something that you like to believe.]

    Next: You asked the following questions to Rashna:

    Quote
    1. What is the topic discussed in Surah 65?

    2. Does it talk about divorcing a child or children?

    3. Does it tell how to marry a child?


    1. Quran Surah 65 is named as Divorce which is only possible after Marriage.
    2. Yes, in verse 65:4, we see Iddah (waiting period) prescribed for pre-pubescent girls too which means marrying and divorcing children is allowed.
    3. There is no command in Quran as ?One should marry a pre-pubescent girl?. But since the verse 65:4 prescribes Iddah (waiting period) for pre-pubescent girls, we have to conclude Quran does not have any problem in marrying and divorcing a child.

    Quote from: BMZ
    Take a look at the part of the first verse in the beginning, which says, إِذَا طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاء and it means, "When you divorce women" but the perverts like Ali Sina, Ayesha Ahmed, Robert Spencer and others with typical paralysed kafir minds, try to show that marrying a child is being discussed here.


    It is not perverts (according to you LOL) say ?NISA? means ?Females?. Quran testifies it. See chapter 4:127:
    They ask thy instruction concerning the women say: Allah doth instruct you about them: And (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book, concerning the orphans of women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed, and yet whom ye desire to marry, as also concerning the children who are weak and oppressed: that ye stand firm for justice to orphans. There is not a good deed which ye do, but Allah is well-acquainted therewith.[Yousuf Ali]

    In the above verse ?Nisa? = ?Women? is used to signify ?Yatama? = ?Orphans? too. Besides, in various other places of Quran the term ?Nisa? is used while mentioning females in general, not grown up women in particular.

    But as I said earlier, you can believe Quran does not sanction child marriage if you can overlook these facts.

    Cheers
    KF



    Hello, Khalil

    You are welcome. In fact, I was going to write my final goodbye to this site tonight but saw your post and would like to address it after dinner.

    I will have no comments on your note on questions asked of Rashna and Astaghfirullah as they should write direct to me. As I am discussing the paralysis of the kafir mind, I wanted to talk with some on one to one basis.

    Anyway, I shall be saying my final good bye after a few nice exchanges with you.

    About our exchanges at FFI, I was always banned in the nick of time, followed by hounding from other FFI members when you and I were having great exchanges. Those were never conclusive, so we can leave them out.

    Cheers
    BMZ

  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #74 - April 20, 2009, 12:45 PM

    Is he maybe trying to infer that such verse is talking about adult women who, for some pathology, have never menstruated?
    :\



    I don't think the Sicko, I mean Ayesha Ahmed understands that. If a husband had married a woman who had lost her periods and had a menopause very early, then she will be automatically covered under the first clause of the verse.

    BMZ

    And all the sicko Muslims who came up with equivalent translations interpretations as well?


    I would be glad to see you doing a translation as a kafir, if you can.

    BMZ

    I can't, hence why I look up various translations to get a picture of all possible interpretations.

    What I am pointing out is that if such an interpretation is symptom of "paralysis of the kafir mind", what does it tell us about the many Muslims, fluent in Arabic, who interpreted it the same way?
    Are you somehow implying they were not Muslims to begin with because they disagree with your interpretation of the Quran?

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #75 - April 20, 2009, 03:34 PM


    Hello, KhaliL

    Watched Ahmedinejad on CNN and saw the European "racists" leave during the speech.  Wink 

    Coming to your post, I must say that Qur'aanic verses agree with me and all other Muslims. All of us, Muslims, agree with Qur'aan. You are well aware that in the Muslim world, there does not exist anything known as an Authorised & Approved Tafsir or Hadith. I discuss only through Qur'aan and you know that very well.

    You also know that there are Shia Tafsirs and ahaadith, there are Sunni Tafsirs and ahaadith and there are even Tafsirs and ahaadith from the Ahmedis and other groups.

    I have Maududi's entire collection sitting right next to my desk. I would like you to show where does he mention the word prepubescent in his explanations? I am not going to discuss Maududi here but just would like to know.

    Next, I would like to know from you how do you define prepubescent? According to my knowledge, it is the age immediately before puberty. Do you agree with this definition? Yes or No?

    Let me address your points, now:

    You have agreed that the Surah talks about some issues on divorce, the main issue being Iddah.

    In response to my question 2, "Does it talk about divorcing a child or children?", you wrote:

    Quote from: KhaliLF
    2. Yes, in verse 65:4, we see Iddah (waiting period) prescribed for pre-pubescent girls too which means marrying and divorcing children is allowed.


    This is incorrect. I will go into the verses, which polemicists show as if the verses are talking about prepubescent girls. The fact is that the verses are not talking at all of any prepubescent girls. This is an important point which most polemicists do not understand and conveniently ignore.

    وَاللَّائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَائِكُمْ إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ وَأُوْلَاتُ الْأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْرًا

    Let us take Yusuf Ali's translation here for an easy reference. "Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy."

    For the first part of the verse, وَاللَّائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَائِكُمْ إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ, all of us agree that a three month Iddah has been prescribed for women who have had menopause and even if there was any doubt, it was still three months period of Iddah.

    The end part وَأُوْلَاتُ الْأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ is also clear to all of us including you also. Right?

    Now, I come to the middle part وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ, which the polemicists
    and those who do not understand Qur'aan at all, claim to be talking about little girls who have not yet had started menstruating.
    Let me show how hilarious is this claim by giving you the following example:

    Imagine, I have four wives. The first A is 35, the second B is 32, the third C is 29 and the youngest D is 25. Also imagine that I am going to divorce them all. Each of them is fit and has regular periods, no problem there. I pronounce divorce on all at the same time but their periods are not due yet and they are also not pregnant. I have to wait for their periods to complete Iddah. Right? Also, they are not babies or children or prepubescent girls.

    The middle part of the verse that I pointed above is talking about the women I spoke off.

    Quote from: KhaliL
    It is not perverts (according to you LOL) say ?NISA? means ?Females?. Quran testifies it. See chapter 4:127:They ask thy instruction concerning the women say: Allah doth instruct you about them: And (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book, concerning the orphans of women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed, and yet whom ye desire to marry, as also concerning the children who are weak and oppressed: that ye stand firm for justice to orphans. There is not a good deed which ye do, but Allah is well-acquainted therewith.[Yousuf Ali]

    In the above verse ?Nisa? = ?Women? is used to signify ?Yatama? = ?Orphans? too. Besides, in various other places of Quran the term ?Nisa? is used while mentioning females in general, not grown up women in particular.

    But as I said earlier, you can believe Quran does not sanction child marriage if you can overlook these facts.


    We will discuss 4:127 separately as it has no relevance to the 'alleged little girsl" in Surah Talaq.

    BMZ
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #76 - April 20, 2009, 03:41 PM

    @ Rashna

    Read and learn from the exchange between KhaliL and me. I will be ignoring most of the posters, when I am discussing with KhaliL.

    BMZ
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #77 - April 20, 2009, 03:48 PM

    @ Tlaloc

    Thank you for the note. Please follow the exchange between Khalil and me. It would be informative.

    BMZ
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #78 - April 20, 2009, 04:01 PM

    @ Khalil

    It is midnight here. I will read your response tomorrow around forenoon here.

    Good night.

    BMZ
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #79 - April 20, 2009, 04:54 PM



    This is incorrect. I will go into the verses, which polemicists show as if the verses are talking about prepubescent girls. The fact is that the verses are not talking at all of any prepubescent girls. This is an important point which most polemicists do not understand and conveniently ignore.

    وَاللَّائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَائِكُمْ إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ وَأُوْلَاتُ الْأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْرًا

    .....

    Now, I come to the middle part وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ, which the polemicists
    and those who do not understand Qur'aan at all, claim to be talking about little girls who have not yet had started menstruating.
    Let me show how hilarious is this claim by giving you the following example: [etc]



    You're deriding people who interpret the verse in that way as 'polemicists' with 'paralyzed kafir minds'.  To say so, you'd have to be prepared to do the same for plenty scholars of Islam. 


    A cursory google search turned up examples right away from easily accessible Islamic websites.  Here's one:




    3 ? If a woman does not menstruate, either because she is very young or old and past menopause, then her ?iddah is three months, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    ?And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ?Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ?Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise??


    http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/12667


    So if you have trouble with people saying this BMZ, maybe you should direct your efforts to the source of this mis-representation, found within the ummah itself.
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #80 - April 20, 2009, 07:00 PM

    Well BMZ has provided a list of which English translations he regards as accurate for the purpose of discussing 65:4.

    I can consider Yusuf Ali, Asad, Arberry, Pickthall, Rodwell, even George Sale okay for this particular verse. 

    Cheers
    BMZ


    So we can use any or all of those for this thread. BMZ will  not dispute the accuracy of those translations as he has quite clearly stated that he accepts them.



    Bold emphasis in above is mine. The permission has been given for that specific verse (65:4) only.  However, I can allow the translation of Surah 65 by only those translators, whom I mentioned.

    BMZ

    Ok BMZ, would you mind giving a straight answer to a straight question? The question is this: since you said you approved of the listed translations and would not dispute them and since Rodwell, in agreeance with a long list of traditional Islamic scholars dating back as far as we have records, quite clearly states that 65:4 includes young girls who have not yet begun to menstruate why are you now disputing his translation?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #81 - April 21, 2009, 12:00 AM

    Well BMZ has provided a list of which English translations he regards as accurate for the purpose of discussing 65:4.

    I can consider Yusuf Ali, Asad, Arberry, Pickthall, Rodwell, even George Sale okay for this particular verse. 

    Cheers
    BMZ


    So we can use any or all of those for this thread. BMZ will  not dispute the accuracy of those translations as he has quite clearly stated that he accepts them.



    Bold emphasis in above is mine. The permission has been given for that specific verse (65:4) only.  However, I can allow the translation of Surah 65 by only those translators, whom I mentioned.

    BMZ

    Ok BMZ, would you mind giving a straight answer to a straight question? The question is this: since you said you approved of the listed translations and would not dispute them and since Rodwell, in agreeance with a long list of traditional Islamic scholars dating back as far as we have records, quite clearly states that 65:4 includes young girls who have not yet begun to menstruate why are you now disputing his translation?


    Where does Rodwell translate to show young girls who have not yet begun to menstruate? Colour emphasis within your quote is mine.

    Looks like you have not read my response to KhalilF. Rodwell is saying the same thing which I explained vide an example.

    BMZ
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #82 - April 21, 2009, 12:13 AM

    Well BMZ has provided a list of which English translations he regards as accurate for the purpose of discussing 65:4.

    I can consider Yusuf Ali, Asad, Arberry, Pickthall, Rodwell, even George Sale okay for this particular verse. 

    Cheers
    BMZ


    So we can use any or all of those for this thread. BMZ will  not dispute the accuracy of those translations as he has quite clearly stated that he accepts them.



    Bold emphasis in above is mine. The permission has been given for that specific verse (65:4) only.  However, I can allow the translation of Surah 65 by only those translators, whom I mentioned.

    BMZ

    Ok BMZ, would you mind giving a straight answer to a straight question? The question is this: since you said you approved of the listed translations and would not dispute them and since Rodwell, in agreeance with a long list of traditional Islamic scholars dating back as far as we have records, quite clearly states that 65:4 includes young girls who have not yet begun to menstruate why are you now disputing his translation?


    Where does Rodwell translate to show young girls who have not yet begun to menstruate? Colour emphasis within your quote is mine.

    Looks like you have not read my response to KhalilF. Rodwell is saying the same thing which I explained vide an example.

    BMZ



    so.............   how do you square what you're saying with the many Islamic scholars who say it's all cool to sleep with a pre-pubescent girl?
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #83 - April 21, 2009, 12:16 AM



    This is incorrect. I will go into the verses, which polemicists show as if the verses are talking about prepubescent girls. The fact is that the verses are not talking at all of any prepubescent girls. This is an important point which most polemicists do not understand and conveniently ignore.

    وَاللَّائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَائِكُمْ إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ وَأُوْلَاتُ الْأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْرًا

    .....

    Now, I come to the middle part وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ, which the polemicists
    and those who do not understand Qur'aan at all, claim to be talking about little girls who have not yet had started menstruating.
    Let me show how hilarious is this claim by giving you the following example: [etc]



    You're deriding people who interpret the verse in that way as 'polemicists' with 'paralyzed kafir minds'.  To say so, you'd have to be prepared to do the same for plenty scholars of Islam. 

    A cursory google search turned up examples right away from easily accessible Islamic websites.  Here's one:

    3 ? If a woman does not menstruate, either because she is very young or old and past menopause, then her ?iddah is three months, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    ?And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ?Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ?Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise??


    http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/12667

    So if you have trouble with people saying this BMZ, maybe you should direct your efforts to the source of this mis-representation, found within the ummah itself.


    Hello,

    Colour emphasis within your quote is mine. Allah does not say that. Period

    I do deride those scholars, who base their own interpretations based on various tafsirs and ahaadith and add on to the verses in brackets. That is wrong. In fact, when we were given a few thousand copies of the translation of Qur'aan by Hilali and Khan by the Saudi ministry for distribution in Singapore, we returned them back because it is a very poor translation based on interpretations.

    Could you get the Shaikh's particular comments made in Arabic, if available? If a man is 60 and his wife is 25, he can say that his wife is young or very young. Right?

    BMZ
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #84 - April 21, 2009, 12:25 AM

    Well BMZ has provided a list of which English translations he regards as accurate for the purpose of discussing 65:4.

    I can consider Yusuf Ali, Asad, Arberry, Pickthall, Rodwell, even George Sale okay for this particular verse. 

    Cheers
    BMZ


    So we can use any or all of those for this thread. BMZ will  not dispute the accuracy of those translations as he has quite clearly stated that he accepts them.



    Bold emphasis in above is mine. The permission has been given for that specific verse (65:4) only.  However, I can allow the translation of Surah 65 by only those translators, whom I mentioned.

    BMZ

    Ok BMZ, would you mind giving a straight answer to a straight question? The question is this: since you said you approved of the listed translations and would not dispute them and since Rodwell, in agreeance with a long list of traditional Islamic scholars dating back as far as we have records, quite clearly states that 65:4 includes young girls who have not yet begun to menstruate why are you now disputing his translation?


    Where does Rodwell translate to show young girls who have not yet begun to menstruate? Colour emphasis within your quote is mine.

    Looks like you have not read my response to KhalilF. Rodwell is saying the same thing which I explained vide an example.

    BMZ



    so.............   how do you square what you're saying with the many Islamic scholars who say it's all cool to sleep with a pre-pubescent girl?


    Hello,

    I do not find any scholar saying it is okay to sleep with prepubescent girls. Where do my four wives, which I mentioned in my response to Khalil, fit in?

    If a man marries and sleeps with a pre-pubescent girl, she will have to wait for a few years to complete her iddah. Do you see how hilarious it can get?  Cheesy

    Have to go now.

    BMZ
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #85 - April 21, 2009, 12:26 AM

    I do deride those scholars, who base their own interpretations based on various tafsirs and ahaadith and add on to the verses in brackets. That is wrong. In fact, when we were given a few thousand copies of the translation of Qur'aan by Hilali and Khan by the Saudi ministry for distribution in Singapore, we returned them back because it is a very poor translation based on interpretations.


    Oki doki, just checkin.



    Quote
    Could you get the Shaikh's particular comments made in Arabic, if available? If a man is 60 and his wife is 25, he can say that his wife is young or very young. Right?



    The link is there you can write them if you want.  But I wouldn't call them "polemicists" or tell them that their "kaffir brains" are "paralyzed" though, they might not write you back.
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #86 - April 21, 2009, 12:26 AM

    Quote from: BMZ
    Now, I come to the middle part وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ, which the polemicists
    and those who do not understand Qur'aan at all, claim to be talking about little girls who have not yet had started menstruating.
    Let me show how hilarious is this claim by giving you the following example:

    Imagine, I have four wives. The first A is 35, the second B is 32, the third C is 29 and the youngest D is 25. Also imagine that I am going to divorce them all. Each of them is fit and has regular periods, no problem there. I pronounce divorce on all at the same time but their periods are not due yet and they are also not pregnant. I have to wait for their periods to complete Iddah. Right? Also, they are not babies or children or prepubescent girls.

    No, because in Arabic Lam ( لَمْ ) specifically denies the past.

    To deny the present you can use Laa, Maa, Inn & Laysa; لَسنَ & إِنْ , مَاْ ,لا

    The book used Lam for a reason, i.e. for those who have not yet menstruated in their lives. Not for those who are not currently menstruating.

    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #87 - April 21, 2009, 12:33 AM

    Hello,

    I do not find any scholar saying it is okay to sleep with prepubescent girls. Where do my four wives, which I mentioned in my response to Khalil, fit in?

    If a man marries and sleeps with a pre-pubescent girl, she will have to wait for a few years to complete her iddah. Do you see how hilarious it can get?  Cheesy

    Have to go now.

    BMZ


    Wait huh?  Huh?

    you just said you 'do deride those scholars' that say that.  You said that just in the last post.  Now you're saying you don't find any scholar saying that.... 

    I don't know where your wives fit, they aren't relevant to the statment made on Islam Q&A that said you have to wait until some pre-determined time is up after having slept with at pre-pubescent girl.
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #88 - April 21, 2009, 03:05 AM

    @ Khalil

    It is midnight here. I will read your response tomorrow around forenoon here.

    Good night.

    BMZ


    Hello Baig,

    I am just coming across of this. Sorry if I kept you waiting for my response. It is early morning here and I have to do a lot before setting of for work.

    Will respond to your input later. Have a good day,

    KF
  • Re: Wanted to discuss The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind
     Reply #89 - April 21, 2009, 03:12 AM

    @ Khalil

    It is midnight here. I will read your response tomorrow around forenoon here.

    Good night.

    BMZ


    Hello Baig,

    I am just coming across of this. Sorry if I kept you waiting for my response. It is early morning here and I have to do a lot before setting of for work.

    Will respond to your input later. Have a good day,

    KF


    Hello, Khalil

    Good day to you too. Take your time. No worries and there is no need for any rush.
    We are not here to please or oblige anyone, so it has to be at our pace.

    Baig
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