Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Yesterday at 06:54 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
Yesterday at 01:36 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
October 22, 2025, 02:37 AM

New Britain
October 21, 2025, 01:10 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
October 18, 2025, 09:54 AM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
October 07, 2025, 09:50 AM

What's happened to the fo...
October 06, 2025, 11:58 AM

Kashmir endgame
October 04, 2025, 10:05 PM

الحبيب من يشبه اكثر؟؟؟
by akay
September 24, 2025, 11:55 AM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
September 20, 2025, 07:39 PM

Jesus mythicism
by zeca
September 13, 2025, 10:59 PM

Orientalism - Edward Said
by zeca
August 22, 2025, 07:41 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam

 (Read 22857 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 5 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #60 - April 26, 2009, 12:58 PM

    By the way, this forum is fascinating! It is very much an anti-Mosque.

    I love this. I'm considering a photo negative of a mosque as my next avatar. Grin

    Quote
    Why does the tafsir continue, still in the same mode of discussion as you had at your mosque? Obviously it is nice to have a support group and a forum where you can say, all together, "this is ridiculous!" Particularly if you are still stuck with Muslim friends or family members.

    But after you have burnt off the anger, what then? Will there be a point at which you can walk away from the past, and forget about that Prophet, his wives, the companions and what you were taught of them? Or will you constantly recall those figures, those stories full of sex, violence and incomprehensible actions, recalling them in disgust that you could have followed so blindly?

    Great observations. I dunno, I'm still stuck on it. Maybe like 'Israel' I still feel the need to wrestle with Allah and his prophet, don't feel I've beaten them decisively yet. Maybe I like the struggle. Maybe I have to beat the dead horse until there's nothing left to beat. Huh? My personal culture has been influenced by Islam. It still fascinates me, so I continue to dissect it, mulhid muttaqi mufassir Grin.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #61 - April 26, 2009, 02:21 PM

    By the way, this forum is fascinating! It is very much an anti-Mosque...
    But after you have burnt off the anger, what then? Will there be a point at which you can walk away from the past, and forget about that Prophet, his wives, the companions and what you were taught of them? Or will you constantly recall those figures, those stories full of sex, violence and incomprehensible actions, recalling them in disgust that you could have followed so blindly?

    Great observations. I dunno, I'm still stuck on it. Maybe like 'Israel' I still feel the need to wrestle with Allah and his prophet, don't feel I've beaten them decisively yet. Maybe I like the struggle. Maybe I have to beat the dead horse until there's nothing left to beat. Huh? My personal culture has been influenced by Islam. It still fascinates me, so I continue to dissect it, mulhid muttaqi mufassir Grin.



    lol... yes the tailor made some good observations and your reply was good too! lol  Afro
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #62 - April 26, 2009, 02:24 PM

    Thanks Hass. Smiley I was worried I'd sounded sappy (I think I am pretty sappy Grin).

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #63 - April 26, 2009, 02:28 PM

    Thanks Hass. Smiley I was worried I'd sounded sappy (I think I am pretty sappy Grin).


    I will defend the right of each and everyone of us to be sappy, lol  Afro
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #64 - April 26, 2009, 02:44 PM

    Encoded truth = failure at being clear

    Why would a God be baroque and use intricate metaphors with encoded truth and deep meaning instead of being plain clear and strait to the point... especially since your supposed eternal fate is at stake? :S


    I've been in this exact same discussion with christians as well.  They can no more square god's behaviour in re human events than the muslims or anybody else can.  IMO, the only rational responses to such arguments are (not limited to) "god does not care", "god does not notice", "god is a standards-grade  sonofabitchmotherfucker", and my favourite "god does not exist".
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #65 - April 26, 2009, 02:50 PM

    Mo was trying to civilize the Arabs like Bush was trying to liberate the Iraqis. Nice concept, sinister intent, terrible consequences. Mo was as much if not more driven by self-interest as he was by any kind of altruistic intents. No wonder all the wahis seem to come down to him from allah at just the right time to suit Mo's own needs. Like Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormons, Mohammed was an opportunist but Mo was better funded (by his wife Khadija's fortune).

    You know, I agree he is a problematic character, but I get the impression that the Meccan Muhammad and Medinan Muhammad are quite different. I get the sense that he started off as decent person but the later military conquests and the influx of concubines, slaves, etc. etc. just went to his head.


    I think he was a bugware case from the word go.  Started off bad and got worse with time.
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #66 - April 26, 2009, 02:52 PM

    Encoded truth = failure at being clear

    Why would a God be baroque and use intricate metaphors with encoded truth and deep meaning instead of being plain clear and strait to the point... especially since your supposed eternal fate is at stake? :S


    I've been in this exact same discussion with christians as well.  They can no more square god's behaviour in re human events than the muslims or anybody else can.  IMO, the only rational responses to such arguments are (not limited to) "god does not care", "god does not notice", "god is a standards-grade  sonofabitchmotherfucker", and my favourite "god does not exist".

    Lol yes.

    Although I prefer the more logical and shocking "god is irrelevant"

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #67 - April 26, 2009, 05:05 PM

    this forum is fascinating! It is very much an anti-Mosque. I see many of the threads are forms of "literalist" hadith analysis and tafsir. This forum I think represents the end-game for "literalist" Islam. If people consider things fully, rationally, scientifically and "literally", they will end here and you guys will have to buy a bigger server!

    But then what happens? Why does the tafsir continue, still in the same mode of discussion as you had at your mosque? Obviously it is nice to have a support group and a forum where you can say, all together, "this is ridiculous!" Particularly if you are still stuck with Muslim friends or family members.

    Everyone needs to burn off anger against the damage a fascist mode of thinking. But after you have burnt off the anger, what then? Will there be a point at which you can walk away from the past, and forget about that Prophet, his wives, the companions and what you were taught of them? Or will you constantly recall those figures, those stories full of sex, violence and incomprehensible actions, recalling them in disgust that you could have followed so blindly?

    Ned told me to be careful with my use of metaphor: advising not to confuse metaphor with reality (I responded to that rather esoterically, citing a bunch of difficult philosophers). But I guess what Ned was actually saying was: don't commit shirk in my blog, worshipping my gendered "metaphors" for something real. Perhaps Ned is a stronger monotheist than I!

    But let me use metaphor just a little bit. I am certainly not asking anyone to play my game. But how long do you think you will have to play <<their>> game?

    The Tailor
    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/


    I would dearly love to walk away and get on with my life and I have tried to do that a few times. Hopefully soon.

    But it seems that despite oneself one must go through a sort of detox or perhaps it is a sort of finding some reason or peace to hold on to from the madness of the past so that one can move on.

    I have been scolded so many times on my Youtube videos, by Muslims telling me why am I still stuck here talking about Islam if I have left.

    Well the answer is I don't know... ok?

    I guess it is something we have to do.

    When I find a way out - I will be the first to celebrate.

    But the fact is that years of Islam leaves one with issues that one has no choice but to battle with.

    Not to mention a huge sense of empathy and concern for loved ones and Muslims in general who's lives are stunted by this bullshit.
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #68 - April 26, 2009, 08:51 PM

    I'm hoping to get a little more milage out of this thread: it has been very rewarding and informative for me. Unfortunatey I won't have ready access to the internet for a week, so if I don't reply to issues raised to me, apologies in advance.

    I very much appreciate Awais and Hassan giving a response about their reasons for continuing to engage with tafsir after leaving the religion. Particularly Hassan, who, from his blog, I can see has had quite the journey!

    By the way, this forum is fascinating! It is very much an anti-Mosque...
    But after you have burnt off the anger, what then? Will there be a point at which you can walk away from the past, and forget about that Prophet, his wives, the companions and what you were taught of them? Or will you constantly recall those figures, those stories full of sex, violence and incomprehensible actions, recalling them in disgust that you could have followed so blindly?

    Great observations. I dunno, I'm still stuck on it. Maybe like 'Israel' I still feel the need to wrestle with Allah and his prophet, don't feel I've beaten them decisively yet. Maybe I like the struggle. Maybe I have to beat the dead horse until there's nothing left to beat. Huh? My personal culture has been influenced by Islam. It still fascinates me, so I continue to dissect it, mulhid muttaqi mufassir Grin.



    lol... yes the tailor made some good observations and your reply was good too! lol  Afro


    But it seems that despite oneself one must go through a sort of detox or perhaps it is a sort of finding some reason or peace to hold on to from the madness of the past so that one can move on.

    I have been scolded so many times on my Youtube videos, by Muslims telling me why am I still stuck here talking about Islam if I have left.

    Well the answer is I don't know... ok?

    I guess it is something we have to do.

    When I find a way out - I will be the first to celebrate.

    But the fact is that years of Islam leaves one with issues that one has no choice but to battle with.


    I can certainly empathize with your situation. Detoxification (or in your cases, I guess deprogramming) is a long and painful affair, but of course is important for our health! So I can see the value of all the reverse tafsir exercises that go on here. I have spoken to many people who have left literalist Islam: intelligent people like yourselves who "left their brain" outside the masjid for so long that, now the veil has been lifted, they feel damaged by the experience. The experience is generally much worse for ex-Muslims than for lapsed Christians, for example, due to the "imaginary friend" being a much more menacing one, and therefore one that will follow you even if you don't want him any more ...

    I've had a taste of it, but nothing as bad as some of the stories I've heard. My heart goes out to you as you battle it through. May you win this jihad of your soul. May your victory lead you to peace, so that your former Islam ceases to haunt you, so that fear the sheikhs instilled within you (and that some of you no doubt self-induced through applying your intelligence to the propaganda) ceases to echo within your souls. May you vent your anger through your continued (anti-) study of the book and hadiths, publicise your views, defend your likeminded kindred and, finally, come out of the process, never having to make or worry about tafsir again.

    Let me speak with a little bit of code, not a lot. Ignore it if code is not your cup of tea.

    (Code alert)

    You are all people of a northern city. A city of fire. You wife is Aisha, the premature judgement that is a solace to an old Prophet who makes Laws, but a danger to his family. I am in the north too: we all are. We are all burning in judgement, as we practice our beliefs, argue our positions, live our lives. The fire purifies, detoxifies and deprogrammes, if it can be controlled. If it cannot: well, I'm sure nothing like that will happen to you. May you return in pilgrimage to a southern city. A city of water and Love. Of the younger prophet, the visionary, kept by Khadija, the cousin of translator of the Gospels. May your love be freed from idolatry, freed from upholding the metaphor above the Light,
    freed from upholding the literal interpretation above the Light of the signs, and may you gain control of water, so that your fire will not touch you. So that the fascism of your past will not touch you. And then as you return to the northern city, let Sanctuary be the state. Let Sanctuary be your state of mind, until the final curtain. Let the northern city become Sanctuary for you, in peace.

    (End code)


    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #69 - April 26, 2009, 09:05 PM

    May you win this jihad of your soul


    Ameen!
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #70 - April 26, 2009, 09:19 PM

    Tailor, this code theory is all very well (using the term loosely) but you still can't or wont explain why you are capable of showing us these hidden meanings and Mohammed wasn't. Surely that would demonstrate an appallingly incompetent choice of prophet on Allah's part if nothing else.

    Your blog is fairly straightforward, from what I have read of it. I mean you aren't discussing the latest in subatomic physics or anything like that. You explain your point of view as well as you can and I think people get the gist of it. Why was Mohammed incapable of doing this in the Quran, which is supposed to be Allah's guide for humanity? Why couldn't Mohammed say to his associates "Hey, this is all in code. Don't take any of it at face value."

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #71 - April 26, 2009, 09:34 PM

    "Hey, this is all in code. Don't take any of it at face value."


    Narrated Ikrama from Ibn Muqaffa who heard it from al-Jahiz from Ibn Abbas who heard the prophet peace be upon him say; "Hey, this is all in code. Don't take any of it at face value." (Bukhari Ibn Kalb)
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #72 - April 26, 2009, 09:43 PM

    False hadith. Grin

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #73 - April 26, 2009, 09:47 PM

    False hadith. Grin


    hehe...  grin12
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #74 - April 26, 2009, 09:49 PM

    I should edit that smiley to make the sign look better. The text is too high and the sign is too wide.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #75 - April 26, 2009, 09:50 PM

    ..and I believed it.  How dumb am I!

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #76 - April 26, 2009, 11:00 PM

    "Hey, this is all in code. Don't take any of it at face value."


    Narrated Ikrama from Ibn Muqaffa who heard it from al-Jahiz from Ibn Abbas who heard the prophet peace be upon him say; "Hey, this is all in code. Don't take any of it at face value." (Bukhari Ibn Kalb)


    LOL.

    Tailor, this code theory is all very well (using the term loosely) but you still can't or wont explain why you are capable of showing us these hidden meanings and Mohammed wasn't. Surely that would demonstrate an appallingly incompetent choice of prophet on Allah's part if nothing else.

    Your blog is fairly straightforward, from what I have read of it. I mean you aren't discussing the latest in subatomic physics or anything like that. You explain your point of view as well as you can and I think people get the gist of it. Why was Mohammed incapable of doing this in the Quran, which is supposed to be Allah's guide for humanity? Why couldn't Mohammed say to his associates "Hey, this is all in code. Don't take any of it at face value."


    Okay, a short attempt at a reply before I am AFK for a week.

    First, one answer a Sufi master from a different tariqa gave in response to this question from a literalist Muslim: "Frankly, I don't care if this is what was meant or not at the time. Your question is all hung up on history, and because time doesn't exist, history doesn't exist."

    There is much merit in his answer. I certainly don't think history is important in my practice of the religion.

    But let me attempt to summarize a more historical position in two stages anyway, just for fun.

    First, assume I am with you: an apostate to the religion.

    If I were an apostate, I would arrive at this point, <<not>> from a reading of Prophecy as a very clever way of gaining a Kingdom through manipulation of people's minds. All politics is, of course, a form of mind control. And certainly religion has proven its worth in gold to that effect. But, if I were to be an apostate, it would be from an understanding of Prophecy as a form of madness. My reading would lead me to believe that Muhammed really DID have visions in his mind, really did perceive all the stuff he talks about. I don't believe he was pretending to have seen an Angel: I think he really <<did>> see one. If you think he made it up consciously, rationally, politically, fraudulently, then you are a different kind of apostate. This form of apostacy (rejection because I think the Prophecy is looney versus rejection because he was a very clever political manipulator) comes down to how you read the hadiths that document his behaviour and actions (as no other Judao-Christian prophet has been documented. Aisha's hadiths in particular are a form of celebrity gossip column almost.)

    But at any rate, if I were an apostate, I would say, his behaviour, his visions, his speech, the utterly disjointed nature of the book that came forth from him: it is all very consistent with the voice of madness. The description of how Prophecy descends upon Muhammed is very close to a kind of psychotic episode: he says it is like his body being broken apart. I know people with schizophrenia who have described similar feelings. And hearing voices ... well, if I were an apostate, I would be leaving the religion because, as Alice says in her adventures in Wonderland, "I don't want to be amongst mad people!"

    Okay, let's say you are that kind of apostate too and we are on the same page.

    How would such an apostate view all the political stuff that accompanied the Prophet's rise to power? Well, that is clear from the guys that were hanging around him: some of them were very effective wheeler-dealer types, spin doctors, aristocrats. And they employed this -- "fool king" -- to front their operation. Certainly you can see the fact that a serious amount of such backroom dealing and manipulation of their "fool king" was going on: how else can you explain the stuff that went on after his death? The Shias make a big fuss about the nature of that fitna, but the Sunni hadiths also detail this, but the scholars justify. It seems that the Prophet had so little power that he could not even get the inheritance issues sorted out for his daughter and most trusted companion. I am not Shia, and I accept the Sunni hadiths. But the nature of the fitna is a big hint here: we are talking about a Prophet that has very little control over the stuff that is going on in his kingdom. At the same time, as I am not Shia, I believe that the wheeler-dealers and backroom manipulators also accepted and attempted to follow the Prophet's Islam. But, if you read about THEIR behaviour, it is clear that often they had a hard time following (see, for example, the Prophet talking about garments and Abu Bakr's response). So, you could say the literalist rot set in quite early, but importantly, it was a literalism that came from the people who used the "fool king" and his clear charisma to establish a new political state.

    Sound a plausible view for an apostate? I think I'd make a decent ex-Muslim on this forum, with such a view. Maybe the Prophet doesn't get slammed as much as some would like, but you can't have it both ways: either he was nuts (surrounded by clever politicians) hearing voices and seeing visions or was a clever, rational politician who invented stories and poems as he saw fit to charm the crowds. But judging from some people's tag lines here, it seems many of you think he was just crazy.

    But then if you admit crazyness, then you also have to take some of the burden away from him needing to explain himself clearly Tongue Such a burden falls only on a rational person, surely.

    So Osmanthus, perhaps we could just stop at this stage and say: I don't think you can expect him to clarify his code, because he was nuts.

    But as you see, I stand before you, a hyper-Salafi.

    The second stage. A hyper-Salafi is quite close to the apostate of the first stage. I don't actually believe the Prophet was mad, but something quite close to madness is here. Prophecy is the polar opposite of madness. Rational, ordinary thinking is in between: that's where we are right now. But, like the poles of a Boolean Algebra, madness and prophecy are at the opposite ends of the limits of language. And, from a practical point of view, both are quite incapable of explaining themselves in the same way that rational people explain. So again, there is my stage two answer for Osmanthus.

    Of course, as I am a believer, I believe that Prophecy reflects the Light of God: it is at the limits of language that the Limit of Language can be sought. I believe that this "fool king" who was seemingly manipulated by those around him to meet a physical, poltical agenda had in fact the final say: because he saw the people around him as Cosmic signs, and through his Prophecy, was in fact manipulating their signs to demonstrate his Truth.

    So even the fitna, the behaviour of the manipulators around him in relation to his family: there is also a Truth embedded within that. Aisha is on the left side of Judgement, Fatima is on the right side of Love, and as they engage in warfare, both are signs that reflect the Cosmic Reality of our journey. To believe that this coincidence of a Cosmic Reality with the actual historical figures: well, it's same sort of thing as believing in miracles, right? Again, for me, the Cosmic Reality matters more than the actual historical people -- it wouldn't even matter to me if Muhammed and Aisha and Fatima never "existed" in the sense that you and I exist -- but nevertheless, I believe they did historically exist, and that this coincidence occurred, and that the Prophet perceived <<only>> this coincidence in his "madness".

    But you don't need to believe any of this to appreciate my answer regarding why no rational-style explanation is given by the Prophet for what he says. If he's not capable of explaining himself, he's not capable, whether mad or prophetic.

    I am a believer, and cleave to the Quran and the hadiths. They are my field and my harvest comes from their negotiation. I say that the majority of sheikhs never even read these texts: while I appear metaphoric, I say all interpretation (not just religious interpretation) is metaphor, and careful negotiation of metaphor is the key to truth. The majority of sheikhs worship their literalist metaphor as a totality: they are in idolatry. I accept my metaphors are shaky, communication is approximation, but attempt to steer my reading carefully toward the Light embedded within, a map of the body that leads from left to right.

    This is hyper-Salafism: if you don't follow, understand it as madmen following Divine lunacy. It is the only way to read Torah and Quran: all other readings will lead to a form of idolatry or, if you are sensible, an outright rejection (much healthier). I follow this, not because I thought any of this philosophy out, but because of personal experience with Divine lunacy: I liked what I tasted, so came back for more!

    Love and Light,

    The Tailor
    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #77 - April 26, 2009, 11:13 PM

    If you are interpreting it with your mind then you are putting you own spin on religion, not what God would have wanted.  By this method Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism can all make sense if they are interpreted in your own image?  What makes Islam so special to you?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #78 - April 26, 2009, 11:34 PM

    If you are interpreting it with your mind then you are putting you own spin on religion, not what God would have wanted.  By this method Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism can all make sense if they are interpreted in your own image?  What makes Islam so special to you?


    As I said earlier, I trained in a Therevada monastery. I have spent time with Central Asian shamans. If you read through my blog (of course I don't advice you to wade through it all!) you will see where I find the linkages to Buddhism and Shamanic traditions. As Islam is very closely tied to Christianity and employs the same codes (fire, water, garments, wives, etc) that's quite easy. Indonesian Muslims managed to reconcile the Mahabharata from Hinduism with their version of Islam (a version that has direct links to the one I practice), again through a similar form of analysis.

    I am not a wishy washy universalist: but I certainly advocate a study of traditions and, personally at least for me, an understanding of the codes behind all the religions leads to great reward.

    What is special about Islam? Let me give you a perhaps surprising response: it is the fact that the Qur'an is written in second person.

    This is quite unusual: the book is written to "You" from God. It's like a little virtual reality game, where you are inside the head of Prophecy. An extended second person narrative is rather unusual in literature -- the main examples of this genre would be the Qur'an and those Choose Your Own Adventure gamebooks that were popular for kids in the 80s!

    Why is this important? Well, a full discussion is due to appear on my blog in a week or so: just working on deleting the philosophical references (it's a bad habit of mine).

    Getting inside the head of Prophecy allows us to get closer to Prophecy ourselves. If we do it properly, then the way we see the world around us also changes. This is also on offer from the other religions and their texts. So, you know, each to his/her own. But the virtual reality business enables us to "become" prophetic faster: it's a sort of short cut to the Light, if you like. (At the same time, the shortcut nature of the narrative does have its dangers, a bit like nuclear energy. Just look at the crazy stuff that people have done after attempting to get into that head ... )

    Love and Light,

    The Tailor


    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/







    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #79 - April 26, 2009, 11:41 PM

    thanks, your last post made things clearer

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #80 - October 31, 2010, 04:13 AM

    It's been more than a year, but the time is nigh ... for you to determine what happens next!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa4BZOVGkSY

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #81 - November 01, 2010, 05:05 AM

    As I said earlier, I trained in a Therevada monastery. I have spent time with Central Asian shamans. If you read through my blog (of course I don't advice you to wade through it all!) you will see where I find the linkages to Buddhism and Shamanic traditions. As Islam is very closely tied to Christianity and employs the same codes (fire, water, garments, wives, etc) that's quite easy.


    what do these codes refer to? I am especially interested in what "garment" symbolises as that code seems to be your own personal coat of arms Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #82 - November 01, 2010, 05:04 PM

    This thread is like a window into a mental institution.

    I wish I was doing a psychology degree.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #83 - November 01, 2010, 05:54 PM

    what do these codes refer to? I am especially interested in what "garment" symbolises as that code seems to be your own personal coat of arms Smiley

    This should answer your question - z10, why do I get the feeling that Tailorite-ism is right up your street?

    and congrats Tailor on your creative & professional looking videos,  did you do them yourself? nice suit btw

    http://www.youtube.com/user/tailorofgoodgarment#p/a/u/2/PJH4Ca04urw

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #84 - November 01, 2010, 06:03 PM

    baah, more new agey crack.
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #85 - November 01, 2010, 07:12 PM

    Peace Ishina,

    Better to be a madman at the pub than a sane fascist at the mosque. It is cold rationality that drives them to bomb the children at the shrines ... a cold rational reading of a Reality that is utterly, madly in Love with you ...

    what do these codes refer to? I am especially interested in what "garment" symbolises as that code seems to be your own personal coat of arms Smiley


    Peace Z10,

    "Garment" is a common Judaic trope for veil/covering and denotes a veiling of "the" Reality by perception/representation/language. Another way of thinking of it is that a garment is basically the way you interpret or read that Reality -- how you filter it with your perception. You can wear a good garment or a bad one, depending on how you choose to "weave your own reality" or "determine your deviation". You could wear a Nazi Uniform and insist that everyone wears it (and as you know, such uniforms/perspectives on Reality need not necessarily come with swastikas, they might be all beards and sandals). Or something more functional and practical. Or you could, as Islame kindly points out, wear a different kind of suit. The Qur'ans edict regarding female clothing (and the sunnah of short trousers) is understood in Tailorite Sufism to refer to this kind of clothing.

    There are many other tropes that are very badly misunderstood (or, depending on your perspective, correctly understood in a very dull and boring way) within the religion you folk have left. For example, the command to "cut the necks of disbelief" is understood by Sufis to refer to severing of the "true" self from a core of negative ego-based attachment (known as the "neck") -- this is because, again, the "face" (of the self and of Reality) is understood to be a different kind of thing to the biological-social definition of a face (surprisingly, Islame, something very close to Faciality in Deleuze and Guattari's 1000 Plateaus, I think I might have mentioned to you?).

    It's been a while since I came on the whole internet blogging/proselytizing scene -- not too long before I signed up to CEM. As you might imagine, I've got myself into some rather uncomfortable situations, spreading this stuff around, particularly to live audiences full of people with a similar mentality to that which you have a problem with. I've seen some pretty ugly garments worn by people in the religion, but the worst garments were worn by those I had counted before as close friends: real hypocritically fascist forms of clothing. So over these years, the title of this introductory post has become decidedly ironic, though of course that was predictable Smiley

    The following (real life record) might be seen as a fitting coda to the first entry I wrote here.
    http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/the-tailor-and-the-muslim/

    NEVERTHELESS.

    To the "core", there's still "more", backs to the wall.

    Stay tuned please, because I haven't said everything I wanted to say to you guys. All will become clear over the next week. I'm going to reveal to you the Real nature of religion and apostasy, no more no less. This Eid you decide what happens next.

    Love and Light,


    The Tailor

     



    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #86 - November 01, 2010, 07:43 PM

    This thread is like a window into a mental institution.

    I wish I was doing a psychology degree.


     clap yay



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #87 - November 02, 2010, 12:59 AM



    Peace Z10,

    "Garment" is a common Judaic trope for veil/covering and denotes a veiling of "the" Reality by perception/representation/language. Another way of thinking of it is that a garment is basically the way you interpret or read that Reality -- how you filter it with your perception. You can wear a good garment or a bad one, depending on how you choose to "weave your own reality" or "determine your deviation". You could wear a Nazi Uniform and insist that everyone wears it (and as you know, such uniforms/perspectives on Reality need not necessarily come with swastikas, they might be all beards and sandals). Or something more functional and practical. Or you could, as Islame kindly points out, wear a different kind of suit. The Qur'ans edict regarding female clothing (and the sunnah of short trousers) is understood in Tailorite Sufism to refer to this kind of clothing.




    Ah, I can see why you are offering the "good garment" then. However, it seems to me that every garment, no matter how good or bad, is still a veil around reality. Surely what should be aimed for is to remove all veils, to be naked and experience reality as it is, not through the lens of any interpretation, no?
    If, however, it is not possible to view reality in an unveiled stance, then how do you distinguish between good and bad garments? what makes a garment good if none can be known for certain to display reality as it really is when reality is veilless?
    Or perhaps I have misunderstood, are you referring to the good garment as the bakaa stage after fanaa? the veil worn after all veils are removed? the way to live amongst man once you have died to man?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #88 - November 03, 2010, 12:33 AM

    Or perhaps I have misunderstood, are you referring to the good garment as the bakaa stage after fanaa? the veil worn after all veils are removed? the way to live amongst man once you have died to man?


    You have got it pretty nicely summed up. There is a moment at which we are found naked and veil-less (as in the garden of Eden and then, as the hadiths relate, on the day of judgement).

    That said, fanaa does actually involve garments quite intimately and is not a complete discarding of garments/language/perception/world view/cultural perspective -- it is not so much a discarding of them, but rather a discovery that each individual thread is a conduit to God. That is to say, it is a state in which all the signs local to your own particular language/perception/culture suddenly take on a deeper significance, indicating God's Love to you. So fanaa is not a transcendence of language, in my view -- I am at odds with some mystics here.

    Baqaa is all about "coming down" from that trip and of course also involves keeping the garment.

    The main difference between a good garment and a bad garment is the presence of swastikas, in my view Smiley That is, anything in one's perception of the world that presents itself as something that MUST be worshipped by all (from money, to fame, to fascist politics, to family abuse to many forms of religion itself) -- that's a bad garment because it contains swastikas (what is known as pork or idolatry in the Qur'an).

    Love and Light,

    TT

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Hyper-Salafism: the True Meaning of Islam
     Reply #89 - November 03, 2010, 12:34 AM

    This will prove relevant to our discussion ...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6J_ULPbwLM

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Previous page 1 2 34 5 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »