Life is a Test!

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Life is a Test!
OP - June 03, 2009, 11:24 PM

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #1 - June 04, 2009, 03:35 AM

Good vid, "a stack of questions with no answers". While watching, I kept thinking of Muslim answers to your questions. Allow me to play "the devil's" advocate:
Life IS a test, to test what we will do with our choices, our free will, "with good and evil, to see who is best in conduct." And Allah already knows the answer. He knows what we will do, but he does not compel us to do. He created us and knows our end. Why then go through the test if he knows how we will answer? So we will have no excuse. Allah offered free will to the mountains, and many other elements, but it was the element of Man that answered, and it was a foolish choice.

Quote from: Qur'an, 33:72
Truly, We did offer The Trust to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they declined to bear it and were afraid of it. But man bore it. Verily, he was unjust (to himself) and ignorant (of its implications).

Allah created us flawed and inclined towards evil, and none of us, not even the Saints or Prophets, Jesus, Mary, Muhammad, none of us are without sin, but we must repent when we do sin, follow our nature, and try to go against our nature and do what Allah wants, what is contrary to our sinning nature.

Quote from: Quran, 2:155
Verily we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere.

That's all I have for now, my brain is too frazzled to think in "Muslim apologetic" mode anymore.

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #2 - June 04, 2009, 05:30 AM

Very moving video, Hassan. I agree that if god (as defined in most monotheistic religions) exists, he is a sadistic bastard and does not deserve to be worshipped. However, there is enough evidence to show that he is a fabrication of human machinations and mind control strategies. He is a fictional character. As usual, you've hit the mark while keeping your compassion at the forefront of your message. Thanks for sharing.

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #3 - June 04, 2009, 07:31 AM

(Also an element of devil's advocate here....)

You know it's not as simplistic as that Hass, why do you keep referring back to this 'God' as portrayed in the books when you know he doesn't exist? And I mean, you know it, we've spoken about it, I've heard you speak about it, it seems clear this is a man made God - so why waste time pontificatiing the absurdities of something you know doesn't exist? I think life can be thought of as a test if you like, testing your own faith in yourself that you can or can't handle whatever is thrown at you. I believe we can, some people are stronger than others, some are weaker and its all to do with our conditioning and ability to keep learning and moving forward (like not getting stuck on bad habits that we explain away as 'I can't help it, it's what I'm like'). This is a very sad story but I can't respect the parents decision, although I feel very sorry for them. Imagine, their parents/family must be distraught - now imagine it was the child's family (he was never in a crash, he grew up healthy and got married) - he and his wife have a child that dies, they kill themselves out of grief - in turn all this does is make two sets of parents distraught - do you get my point? They have in a way 'failed' a test (by creating all that extra sadness by copping out), but they are not going to be punished by God in a fire, just by themselves. Everything and everyone dies, is it not just us humans that make it so 'sad'. I don't see many depressed and suicidal animals as I go about my business, know what I mean?

*Another knock on effect of this type of action (ripples creating ripples) is that suicidal people, when they read these stories, it gives them encouragement that they too can 'opt out' because 'life is so sad' (as demonstrated by the jumpers/wrist slashers/overdosers etc). It's not a great example to set, so I would consider it 'wrong'. Dying happy, that's my aim, if at all possible. But I'm not going waste my time thinking about a gOd I don't believe in.

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #4 - June 04, 2009, 10:44 AM

No real point in answering any of that... this statement is enough

Quote
Qur'an, 33:72
Truly, We did offer The Trust to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they declined to bear it and were afraid of it. But man bore it. Verily, he was unjust (to himself) and ignorant (of its implications).

Ponder on how ridiculous that is for about a minute.

There are so many thing in that one sentance that are contradictory, nonsensical, and mind bogglingly silly that should give one serious pause as to the "truthyness" of this book.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #5 - June 04, 2009, 11:13 AM

That was a very upsetting set of images, but very true. I know the muslim and religious stance in general on this, but I've never been able to swallow the platitudes that they can.

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #6 - June 04, 2009, 11:20 AM

Jack, you said the same thing in another thread and I gave you a simple reply but you probably didn't see it fit to be replied to or something.

Hassan is using a method of argument called reductio ad absurdum where you take a belief and you follow it to its logical conclusion and then you realize how absurd the conclusion is. It is a perfectly valid form of reasoning and a very useful one at that.

What your doing is like when I use a hypothetical thought experiment like, what would God do if so and so and they reply "but so and so isn't the case" and I'm like, no you idiot, its a thought experiment to see what your underlying principles really are by applying it to a given situation! The fact that Hassan doesn't believe in this God is NO REASON to say that he should never ever refer to it again. Assessment and Re-assessment of your own beliefs is a good enough reason to keep referring back to that which you no longer believe. But also, I think what Hassan's main objective here is to try and get people who STILL HOLD his previous religious beliefs to realize that what they believe is wrong. You might ask "why?" There are plenty of reasons why! It is very nice to be living free from religion. I would like it if religious believers could also experience the freedom that I feel. That isn't to say that they should no longer do the rituals they do. They can do as much of that as they want, as long as they realize that they don't have to do that. I would say every single religious believer who enjoys their religious rituals, do so because they were the only activities (along with other religious rituals that they're not so enthusiastic about, since all religious believers usually have a favourite form of worship) that they felt they were actually allowed to do, so they could only make use of that. They learnt to love it in the end, but they were very restricted to begin with.

So why have you got a problem with Hassan doing these kind of vids?

The unlived life is not worth examining.
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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #7 - June 04, 2009, 11:23 AM

Quote from: Homer on June 04, 2009, 10:44 AM
No real point in answering any of that... this statement is enough

Ponder on how ridiculous that is for about a minute.

There are so many thing in that one sentance that are contradictory, nonsensical, and mind bogglingly silly that should give one serious pause as to the "truthyness" of this book.

What's wrong with it?

The unlived life is not worth examining.
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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #8 - June 04, 2009, 11:32 AM

Quote from: J4m3z on June 04, 2009, 11:20 AM
There are plenty of reasons why! It is very nice to be living free from religion...
So why have you got a problem with Hassan doing these kind of vids?

Exactly. Its a natural inclination to want to leave this world a better place than how we found it.

If I thought I could do video's anywhere near as good as him, I would be doing them too!

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #9 - June 04, 2009, 11:58 AM

Peace everybody

The pictures in you video dear Hassan,is heartbreaking.

I lost my belives in the man maid God,but I have also lost my belive in humans.What are we really?
Just some animals,eating one another,with war and starvations,and ego lifes?

I find it tragic that the couple killed them selves over the pain,of loosing their child,but why not live,and try to change the lifes of someone living?We are not entities alone here on this planet,we share the pain,everyone.

A woman I know,lost her daughter,and granddaughter,in the tsunami in 2004.Today she live and work in Thailand,in a child home,for parentless children,it did not take the pain away,but it gave her something to live for.

Where there is life,there is hope,I think.

Why does the world look like it does,and where goes the cries of the people,suffering in this world?

Like the mother in your video,with the starved child in her lap,who hear her cry,and do we carry any responsibility,of their faith?

I am so confused this days Hassan,I think you know!
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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #10 - June 04, 2009, 12:30 PM

Quote from: marleya on June 04, 2009, 11:58 AM
I lost my belives in the man maid God

You came to COEM as a Muslims apologist, and now you are not? I'm curious, what made you change you mind?

Quote
but I have also lost my belive in humans.

No need to lose your faith in humanity, it will make you bitter and twisted. You will have noticed the majority of people are good. As long as that remains, just continue on your personal journey, and let it take you to wherever it makes most sense and draws you most comfort.

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #11 - June 04, 2009, 12:39 PM

Quote from: IsLame on June 04, 2009, 12:30 PM
You came to COEM as a Muslims apologist, and now you are not? I'm curious, what made you change you mind?
No need to lose your faith in humanity, it will make you bitter and twisted. You will have noticed the majority of people are good. As long as that remains, just continue on your personal journey, and let it take you to wherever it makes most sense and draws you most comfort.

Hi Islame.

I still belive in God,and I am muslim,but have problems with defending things I can not stand for.
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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #12 - June 04, 2009, 12:54 PM

Quote from: marleya on June 04, 2009, 12:39 PM

Hi Islame.

I still belive in God,and I am muslim,but have problems with defending things I can not stand for.

Sorry, our definitions of a man-made God are different

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #13 - June 04, 2009, 01:21 PM

I though life was a test of faith? You didn't cover this in your video though

Quote from: marleya on June 04, 2009, 11:58 AM
Peace everybody

The pictures in you video dear Hassan,is heartbreaking.

I lost my belives in the man maid God,but I have also lost my belive in humans.What are we really?
Just some animals,eating one another,with war and starvations,and ego lifes?

I hate humanity too, we all just greedy pillocks.

Quote
I find it tragic that the couple killed them selves over the pain,of loosing their child,but why not live,and try to change the lifes of someone living?We are not entities alone here on this planet,we share the pain,everyone.

It's not that simple. When depression hits you as hard as that it takes away all meaning from life, you feel completely hopeless and helpless. It's a horrible feeling and can drive you to suicide. It's not something most people can understand unless they have experienced it for themselves.

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #14 - June 04, 2009, 01:36 PM

Life is a bitch, and then you're reborn! :S

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #15 - June 04, 2009, 07:13 PM

Quote from: J4m3z on June 04, 2009, 11:23 AM
What's wrong with it?

well, break it down

Qur'an, 33:72
Truly, We did offer The Trust to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they declined to bear it and were afraid of it. But man bore it. Verily, he was unjust (to himself) and ignorant (of its implications).

Sentence 1:

"We did offer The Trust to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains"
So the mountains are not part of earth?
How do you offer anything to the earth... or the "heavens" for that matter? Offered freedom of choice to the "heavens". Think of how silly this is. What about the mountains... what would they do with free will? walk around and fornicate?
"they declined to bear it"
How the freak could they decline free will if they dont have free will?!?! This makes no sense on several levels.
I cant even articulate how little sense any of this makes.

How about the second sentence

"Verily, he was unjust (to himself) and ignorant (of its implications)."

Yet god makes the offer... and he is aware of the implications.. wtf does that make god? Not to mention the fact that How can you accept free will.... without already friggen having it?

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

"Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags." -Ibl
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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #16 - June 04, 2009, 08:32 PM

The heavens and the earth and including the mountains.

And giving it to the heavens and the earth as in, those who reside in the heavens and the earth.

And Muslims do believe that mountains have free will.

The unlived life is not worth examining.
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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #17 - June 04, 2009, 08:35 PM

Do they? Based on what? That passage quoted from the Qur'an says that the mountains were offered free will and refused it.

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #18 - June 04, 2009, 08:55 PM

That couple was too self centered.

They should have considered the grief they put upon others by committing suicide (Parents, family and friends).

Some kid is going to rot in an orphanage somewhere that could have been adopted by them.

So many good deeds that never happened because they checked out too soon.

A very romantic gesture, but immature and selfish as harsh as that may sound.

Anyway, If life had no horrors there would be no heroes and skydiving is a lot more exciting thanks to the occasional diver who plummets to the ground.

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #19 - June 04, 2009, 09:17 PM

I find this whole topic of suffering here in our existence to be very complex thing.

i personally believe in re-birth...or should i say i believe out of all other possibilities of what happens after the body dies anyway.

I think a lot of suffering we have in this life is brought about by our perceptions on the world. We are afraid of reality.

There isnt one person who wont lose someone the lovWe know that all things are alwways changing, all things are getting old and will die, yet when its one of our own we have never realised this untill its too late than we cant deal with it.
e. Death is a fact of life, and in the west we hide death too much, we run from it. why? because we are attached to our sense of selves? we are attached to everything we have, our parents, car, house, lover, kids...as if they are perminent things. Im not saying you cant love, care and lookafter these things, but recognise truth, they will change, they will age, rust and die, like all things...we are not alone in this and should help all humans through this fact. Through this you will be less selfish, and see that every person suffers pain and hardshit...everysingle living thing suffers...even hunger in the morning can make us suffer...but its how we deal with it, it teaches us!! to care for the pain in ourselves and others, helping others is the key to ending your own suffering and theirs!

Its of my view that suffering in all its guises in the world does have a reason, its a truth that we should accept. Accept that tragidies will and do happen, even to you.

Accept that you will get angry, upset with your wife, but learn from it. learn to know when your angry...observe feelings, they are not yours are they? do you think your the only person to feel the feeling of despair, anger, fear? no all living humans do.

Also, when we get these feelings, we cling to them, thinking they are solid, but like all things they come and go. Think about it, all the changes of feelings you had through today...always coming and going...they are not you.

Once you can realise these facts, you might start to ask what actually are you? what is self? there doesnt seem to be one in the conventional sense...your feelings and thoughts are never at one, your body is always changes...memories fade...new ones come...are you a solid self? no.

So i also have a thing for Karma. Where your mind and conciousness is today is as a result of the past, your actions, cause and effect has led you to your condition right now.

If your greedy, selfish, cling to worldly things and you will suffer a great deal in you mind, that is what bad karma is, so when you die like this, your conciousness will not have gotten free from attachment, for craving and greedy thoughts...from you wrong perceptions about reality and self, you will then as a result of your past mind action be rebourn in a suitable body to fit.

A bit like if your in a faul mood when you go to sleep, you will wake up to the consequence the next morning.

Suffering is noble here in the human realm, because we can learn from it, but only when you look into the true nature of life, without ego and solid self, suffering will devour us.

Sorry for the rant! just my thoughts are always developing on this!

sorry for all grammar and spelling error am in a rush!!!
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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #20 - June 04, 2009, 11:49 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on June 04, 2009, 08:35 PM
Do they? Based on what? That passage quoted from the Qur'an says that the mountains were offered free will and refused it.

"The Trust" means free will?

I assumed it meant a revelation.

How does something have the choice whether to accept free will or not when it is offered to them? They would need free will first. After all, free will = ability to choose, right? So what do Muslims regard as "free will" if that is what "The Trust" means?

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #21 - June 05, 2009, 12:40 AM

Quote from: Hassan on June 03, 2009, 11:24 PM
Latest video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El4KxBWRol0

Life is a Test!

God dont give us pain/sickness nor pleasure/wealth but he put us in a world where human face both, some time by choice some time not.

regardless what are our situation is good or bad, God want human to (TRY) to be good, that is our test, if we pass the test he will reward us paradise.

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the clash of civilization.

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #22 - June 05, 2009, 12:41 AM

Quote from: J4m3z on June 04, 2009, 08:32 PM
And Muslims do believe that mountains have free will.

we dont

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the clash of civilization.

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #23 - June 05, 2009, 01:04 AM

Quote from: kope on June 05, 2009, 12:40 AM

Life is a Test!

God dont give us pain/sickness nor pleasure/wealth but he put us in a world where human face both, some time by choice some time not.

regardless what are our situation is good or bad, God want human to (TRY) to be good, that is our test, if we pass the test he will reward us paradise.

Why do you think he does all that? What's he getting from that?

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #24 - June 05, 2009, 01:10 AM

Quote from: allat on June 05, 2009, 01:04 AM
Why do you think he does all that? What's he getting from that?

please rephrase your question that i can understand.

please read my blog, read how islam will win
the clash of civilization.

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #25 - June 05, 2009, 01:14 AM

Quote from: kope on June 05, 2009, 12:40 AM

Life is a Test!

God dont give us pain/sickness nor pleasure/wealth but he put us in a world where human face both, some time by choice some time not.

regardless what are our situation is good or bad, God want human to (TRY) to be good, that is our test, if we pass the test he will reward us paradise.

Why does God do what you are saying he does (test people)? What does God get out of doing that?

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #26 - June 05, 2009, 01:19 AM

When a teacher tests a student and then rewards or punishes the student, he does that, so that the student learns stuff he needs in his further life.

When someone does not pass God's test and ends in hell, what is the purpose of that punishment? The poor sinner has no chance to correct the errors he has made, since hell is eternal and you don't get a second chane.

So, why would God punish people with hell?

The student can use what he has learned during school in his later life. But where can you use what you have learned during the test of life?

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #27 - June 05, 2009, 03:03 AM

Quote
"The Trust" means free will?

according to several islamic websites I visited by googling the verse, yes.

Quote
I assumed it meant a revelation.

Good thing the Quran is so simple and clear

anyway, Heck, even giving it the super benefit of the doubt it still makes no friggen sense..... give the "heavens" revelation? WTF does that even mean? like reciting quran to Pulsars and Mt. Everest? This is all nuts.

Quote
How does something have the choice whether to accept free will or not when it is offered to them? They would need free will first.

My point exactly.... You're trying to reason it out and turn it into something that makes sense.... The simple answer is, a guy in the desert said it, thought it sounded cool and didnt really think it all out.

The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
-Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #28 - June 05, 2009, 05:05 AM

Quote from: Homer on June 05, 2009, 03:03 AM
The simple answer is, a guy in the desert said it, thought it sounded cool and didnt really think it all out.

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Re: Life is a Test!
Reply #29 - June 05, 2009, 11:36 AM

Quote from: Homer on June 05, 2009, 03:03 AM
You're trying to reason it out and turn it into something that makes sense.... The simple answer is, a guy in the desert said it, thought it sounded cool and didnt really think it all out.

Thats the real answer , but I suppose he is asking from the perspective of a believer

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